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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
The magic of the Marine Band
The magic of the Marine Band
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Philosofy
178 posts
Apr 27, 2009
7:19 PM
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With all the choices of harps out there, the old Marine Band still seems to be the #1 choice among blues players, and I'd like to understand why.
The reason I don't prefer the Marine Band is the wooden comb. Its harsh on my tongue, and swells, especially after I try to wash my harp with mouthwash after a gig in a smoke filled room. My theory on the wooden comb is that it made sense years ago, when manufacturing tolerances weren't that great. Harps leaked, and the pear comb would swell after a little playing and make the harp more airtight. But now, with plastic combs, I think those would be more airtight. I know some swear that wooden combs sound warmer, but I'm skeptical of that.
Another factor in harp sound could be the shape of the covers. But it seems that all the customizers open the back of the covers. The shape of the cover might be a personal preference, but may not have a big impact on the sound.
Another feature of the Marine Band is that it uses nails, not screws or nuts and bolts. This makes a difference if you are trying to replace a reed plate, but probably makes little difference on sound.
I've heard some on this forum criticize the MB for thin reedplates. I can see that thicker may be better for longevity and flatness of the reedplates (which relates to how airtight the harp might be.) Thicker might mean better, but people still prefer the thin MB plates.
Another impact on sound could be the metallurgy of the reeds (and reedplates.) I haven't researched this much, but I would think that Honer uses the same brass material for all their harps. If metallurgy was a big deal, the GM or Big River or Special 20 would be just as popular. And, with a class in metallurgy under my belt, I know that the crystal structure as well as the metal composition can play a factor here.
The most important (IMO) would be the reeds themselves. The length, thickness, and width would play a factor. I don't know if the MB has longer, thinner reeds or shorter, fatter reeds.
Several of the manufacturers have addressed these issues, but their harps still aren't preferred as much as the MB. Why?
Can we discuss what make the MB such a special harp? Is it just sentimentality? How does the customization effect the sound for the better? If the customizers here can chime in, how would you design the perfect harp?
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2009 7:21 PM
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MrVerylongusername
280 posts
Apr 28, 2009
7:39 AM
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Three Ts
...but I'm with you. Never liked 'em. I think players that primarily lip purse tend to be more positive about them. I think their size and thin profile suits lip pursing well, but their sharp edges and tendency to swell are a real pain for tongue blockers and U-blockers
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2009 7:40 AM
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XHarp
34 posts
Apr 28, 2009
8:15 AM
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Its hard to say what makes any one harp special. As was just noted, Tradition is likely the number one issue for MB's.
IMHO, Tone is mostly up to the player. Getting your chops down acoustically is paramount before stepping into amplification.
Tuning is a personal preference. Just Intonation is very cool for chording but can be a bit harsh for typical blues riffs. Modified Just seems to be the best result but again this is a personal selection.
Reed quality is a certain factor for sure in tone and playability.
Brass Metalurgy is another factor however, as I understand, there is a fairly short range in acceptable brass or bronze composition for musical instruments so all of them will be somewhere in this range. Stainless steel reeds would of course be an exception to this. Heat Treating brass reeds (not annealing) can be used to improve playability and longevity but this crosses into customization. (And can cost a bit of bucks screwing up reed plates trying to figure it out) Check Harp-L string to research this further.
If you wash it using mouthwash it will certainly swell. MD Deluxe or standard, they are not fully sealed.
Watch Neil Young, He leaves them sitting in water as did many early MB players. Not sure that a swollen harp is really a problem after watching him. (But then his playing is another topic for discussion much like Dylan's)
Many play straight out of the box harps. No customization.
This is another string in an aged old discussion.
Best advice ever given to me was to try them all then play what YOU like.
If it swells, either learn to play dry or play plastic or metal.
But remember, The idea is to have fun working it out.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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mr_so&so
82 posts
Apr 29, 2009
8:27 AM
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Phil, I too have been wondering about the mojo of the MB. It was the first harp I ever bought, and I destroyed a few of them before moving on to some more robust plastic-combed jobbies. I can say that I still prefer the sound of the MB, and its size, and shape of the cover plates. Maybe if I get around to purchasing a custom harp that will be the one.
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mickil
170 posts
Apr 29, 2009
3:59 PM
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I haven't got the time to say all I want cos I've still got to read up on the way we're meant to upload our Harpfriends entries - they are long threads!
What I would say though, to those who love the MB - maybe the MB Crossover will resolve our problems. I know they're not gonna be cheap, but, from the research I've done, it would appear that they might be cheaper in the long run.
The comb is made from laminated Boso-Bamboo; it's also used to make kitchen utensils!
Gotta trawl through those threads now.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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Andrew
257 posts
Apr 29, 2009
11:58 PM
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"I still prefer the sound of the MB, and its size, and shape of the cover plates"
I think this sums up what I think about the MB.
If money is a problem (and it is for me), you might be interested to hear that in one of his videos Peter Madcat Ruth plays the cheapest model Hering make.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2009 11:58 PM
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mickil
171 posts
Apr 30, 2009
5:37 AM
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harpwrench, I suppose that what I'm trying to say is that I like things that are designed not to be 'throw away'; coupled with that, I like instruments that are made of natural materials. I suppose it's a mixture of tradition and aesthetics.
As for your comment about the covers and comb, the covers just have different engravings, that's all; the comb is made of a different material, and that is the point. Half the problem with an MB is the unlealed comb.
As for it being a 'crappy harp', I think your usage of the word 'crappy' probably doesn't tally with how most people would use it. A crappy harp is one you buy for a child for just a few pounds; it's not one that is used by inumerable professionals - and has been for decades.
My view is best summed up by echoing Andrew's last post:
"I still prefer the sound of the MB, and its size, and shape of the cover plates"
I think this sums up what I think about the MB.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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chromaticblues
30 posts
Apr 30, 2009
8:16 AM
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Harp wrench isn't wrong in saying they sqeel right out of the box! the 2&3 draw bent down is my biggest complaint about hohners. That seems to be the thing I just can't figure out how to fix! I think its from a burr close to the rivit, but sometimes I get lucky trying to remove what might be a burr and sometimes I don't! Does anyone else deal with this? I can't be the only one. When you bend the 2 or 3 you get a metal kind of pinging noise.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2009 9:01 AM
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MindApe
8 posts
Apr 30, 2009
8:45 AM
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Everyone always talk about the comb-swelling business, but besides the slightly bumpy ride you get, does it have any really detrimental effects? Does it ruin the harp? Do Marine Bands really die differently than any other harp?
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MrVerylongusername
287 posts
Apr 30, 2009
9:14 AM
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Not really. The reeds give up the ghost long before the comb, but constant swelling and contracting can make the comb twist and crack, and because the harp is nailed, not screwed, the whole harp gets leakier.
I think a swelling comb is only going to kill your harp before the reeds give up if you follow the old 'advice' to soak your harps. That takes the cycle of swelling - contracting to the extreme.
Personally I don't find it a 'slightly bumpy ride' - to me it's like French kissing a cheese grater!
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chromaticblues
31 posts
Apr 30, 2009
9:21 AM
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I see what your saying mindape. Answer NO!
I would like to see Hohner make a MBD that is just like the MB, but with a sealed comb half sealed comb. I don't care. Something better than the standard MB. If it cost twice as much I will understand, but the MBD totally missed the mark. It shouldn't be called a Marine Band Deluxe. Its not the same thing as a MB only better. It is a totally different Harp. I'm one of the few that don't mind nails in my harp. That's because it isn't the nails that cause the leakage it is the comb not being sanded down at all(or at least it doesn't look sanded to me)! And as far as the pinging noise goes that has to be something to do with the assembly of the harps(riveting the reeds on). I don't see why they can't figure that out and alter their process. That is called quality control and/or giving a shit!
People keep buying them the way they are. Why should they spend money to make them better? That is the real world. I love the way they sound and just the feel a MB compared to anything else! I just don't like spending money on harps and some of them aren't usable!
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2009 9:25 AM
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MIKE C.
3 posts
Jun 20, 2009
10:53 AM
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THE MARINE BAND IS THE STRATOCASTER OF HARMONICAS.
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jonsparrow
474 posts
Jun 20, 2009
11:03 AM
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thats a good way to look at it. but im more of a tele guy.
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Kingley
62 posts
Jun 20, 2009
11:27 AM
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Personally I think the Marine Band has the best tone of any harmonica I have played.
However out of the box they can be a nightmare to play. I'd like to see Hohner make the 1896 Marine Band with a screw assembly.
The Marine Band Deluxe is a nice harp but it doesn't have the same tone as an 1896 Marine Band.
I take mine 1896 Marine Bands apart. Seal them and drill them for screws. I find they are the best harps I have ever played after I do that.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
20 posts
Jun 20, 2009
9:16 PM
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The Marine Band is the Coca-Cola of harmonicas. The real draw is the tuning, while it has changed over the years, it's still tuned for chords. I tuned a couple harps for a guy recently, a Suzuki Promaster and an (EEK! My least favorite harp of all time) a GOlden Melody. Once I tuned the Golden Melody to 7-limit Just, I actually liked the thing. Marine Bands are tuned like this (all in cents deviation from reference pitch, WHICH IS NOT, I don't care what the harp says A=440)
Hole 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
blow 0 -12 +1 0 -12 +1 0 -12 +1 0
draw +2 +1 -11 +2 -12 +3 -11 +2 -12 +3
MS tuning is like this
Hole 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Blow 0 -10 +1 0 -10 +1 0 -10 +1 0
Draw +2 +1 -9 +2 +3 +3 -9 +2 +3 +3
While there are subtle overtones that become clear later on, the first thing you hear, and the main reason I believe people are taken with one harp vs. another is how it is tuned. I pick up an MS and think "What an abomination!" What I am hearing and hating is a lack of deviation in the chord notes.
The way something is tuned makes a big difference in what you hear, specifically the interaction of notes. Two or three notes played together will produce interactions and overtones based on their deviation from each other.
Here's how the Marine Bands used to be tuned, back in the day...
Hole 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Blow 0 -14 +2 0 -14 +2 0 -14 +2 0
Draw +4 +2-12 +4 -29 +6 -12 +4 -29 +6
My Elks are tuned something like this, only with two reference pitches. I am not the first customizer to use two reference pitches, one for each plate. It's a fairly common practice, my difference is reference pitch is fairly tame, a lot of folks tune the draw plate at A=445 Hz.
This is the tuning I use most, and the American Chestnut harps are tuned this way by default:
Elk Maximum Prewarification tuning
Blow plate A=442 Hz.
Draw plate A=444
Hole 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Blow 0 -14 +2 0 -14 +2 0 -14 +2 0
Draw +5 +3 -12 +5 -29 +6 -12 +5 -29 +6
That's what I start off with as a guide, I suppose, I first tune to what I have above. Then, the tuner becomes less important and I switch over to ear mode. I tune the 1-3 blow chord first and I listen to how the notes interact with one another and alter the tuning to get the interaction I want. Then I tune the rest of the blow plate in octaves.
Non-prewarified Elk tuning starts out more like this:
Hole 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Blow 0 -14 +2 0 -14 +2 0 -14 +2 0
Draw +4 +2-12 +4 -15 +6 -12 +4 -15 +6
With both the Elk tunings, & provided I've not made a typo someplace, that's just what I start off with before my ear kicks in, the final result deviation would be no more than a few cents here and there.
The point is, there are a lot of things you can do with tuning and it changes the whole character of the instrument.
Dave Payne
www.elkriverharmonicas.com
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Kingley
63 posts
Jun 20, 2009
11:18 PM
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I agree with Dave that the tuning changes the whole character of the instrument.
However I'm a Pepsi guy myself. Coca-Cola is just not as good! :)
The Hering 1923 is tuned to 7 limit JI and has a sealed comb and screw assembly, but still doesn't sound as good tonally as an 1896 Marine band (at least to my ears).
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jonsparrow
476 posts
Jun 21, 2009
12:30 AM
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you lost me.
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X-Ray Man
1 post
Jun 21, 2009
12:32 AM
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I would say tha MB looks better. And as long as it sounds good the look can be a point as any.
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djm3801
149 posts
Jun 21, 2009
3:49 AM
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I am no pro, but have harps of a lot of makes in my journey - Deltas, Suzukis (blues and haprmaster), Seydel sessions and solist pro, Lee Oskar, SP20, Bues harp, Golden melody. The marine band - regular one - is the worst harp I ever played out of the box. I said somewhere you should not need to work on something you buy in order to make it work properly. You want to, fine. I do woodworking, so I took it apart liek folks said. Sanded the comb on a flatbed belt sander with fine in it. Sealed it with Beeswax. Messed with the reeds a little per some Youtube instructions (No pro here either but I have worked on a lot of things), reassembled with the crappy nails as I have no screws. Played a little better. SP20 out of the box - have never had a terrible one. I buy a car it ought to work properly. If I am going to take it on the track, I need to work on it. I do not consider and average player playing average blues taking a harp out on the track. Marine Band costs the same as a lot of others out there that use screws in construction too. I guess tradition and a specific tone make it worth it to some folks. There are a lot of great sounding harps out there so we are lucky. That is almost a danger too. TOO MANY.
Dan M
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