rabbit
27 posts
May 14, 2009
5:46 PM
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So I read that some folks file their 7-draw reed
to go 1/2-step flat, it gives a flat 3rd in 2nd position.
Then I learned that you can play the major blues
scale over the I-chord of the blues.
On a 'C' harp, meaning 'G' in second position
you can use:
6 - blow= G= 1
6 - draw= A= 2
7 - draw= Bb=b3
7 - blow bend = B =3
8 - draw= D= 5
8 - blow= E= 6
9 - blow= G= 1
Of course you can do this
on holes 2 thru 6, also.
Anybody doing this?
Any comments or info?
If I'm re-inventing the wheel,
am I missing anything?
Anything else re: flattening the 7-hole?
Thanks,
rabbit
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Patrick Barker
281 posts
May 14, 2009
5:53 PM
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yes, check out this guy, he does it to all his harps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hUCd03PDAM&feature=channel_page
he also has other videos about this tuning and videos of him playing with the tuning. I've tried it; it has it's advantages but I feel like I'm too used to the major tuning and am too lazy to re-tune all my harps.
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"Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
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Preston
348 posts
May 14, 2009
6:56 PM
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To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a "Major" blues scale. Are you sure you don't mean the major pentatonic? Some people play major over the I chord and then play the minor pentatonic and blues scale over the IV and V chords.
Does anybody know what would happen to the 7 overdraw if you tuned the 7 draw down half a step? I'm interested to see if you lose that or not.
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harpwrench
36 posts
May 14, 2009
7:28 PM
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7 draw stalls and 7 blow activates for the 7 overdraw note, so this modification doesn't affect 7 overdraw.
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Preston
349 posts
May 14, 2009
7:34 PM
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Well, on draw bends the intervals of the bend depends on the distance between the notes of the blow reed and the draw reed from each other, I thought maybe it might be a similar with OBs. But then again I should've guessed since the 5 draw doesn't bend and you still get a step and a half up from the 5 blow for the 5ob. Good to know.
Are you going to see Jason Ricci and New Blood at Westport in 2 weeks?
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rabbit
28 posts
May 14, 2009
8:49 PM
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Patrick B,
Thanks for the link. My ear isn't good enough to
pick out the meaning of the flat 7draw in his
playing but I'll try listening some more. I'm
ignorant enough to find this interesting and only
have three good harps.
Preston,
The major pentatonic with an added flat third
is widely called 'major blues' by guitar guys
but I'm not hip enough to know if this is universal.
Combining major & minor like you said is
just what I meant. Just discovering this.
Kind of fits because blues mixes major &
maj.dom.7 chords with blues scale anyway.
I altered a C-harp with a dead 4draw with the
flat 7draw (my first retuning) and will practice
this scale & check it out. Trying to land on
a pre-bent blow bend is work for me.
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Preston
350 posts
May 15, 2009
5:25 AM
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Rabbit,
That's cool that you are taking stuff from guitar guys. I am on a similar journey myself. I did find on several guitar websites talk of a major blues scale just like you said.
1 2 b3 3 5 6
I didn't find it on wikipedia's definition of music scales or the couple of music theory websites I checked out. But what the hell. If it works, it works. We don't care if it's universal or not!
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Jim Rumbaugh
42 posts
May 15, 2009
10:47 AM
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Rabbit
The second octave you described, is something I used for the first 6 years of my playing. I am now moving away from it. I am slowly developing my "2nd octave blues scale". My own defintion, no one else's.
The scale you described is a major scale with the dominant 7th. It's like the traditional major scale, but the 7th note is flated 1/2 step. This is a step "towards a blues" scale.
regular scale 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
your scale 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 8
blues scale 1 b3 4 b5 5 b7 8
The above BLUES SCALE is not in stone(in my opinion). The flat 3rd, per Adam Gussow and others, is only bent down a quarter step. I ussually mess up and bend it a half step, which makes it a MINOR SCALE by definition. Joe Falisko once commented that a bunch of us students were bending the 3 draw too much.
The 2nd note of the scale is optinal and not common in blues. I ASSUME it is optional. I do use it with the 6 draw, but it is harder to do with the 3 draw. That is probably why you do not hear it used a lot.
The 6 note apears to be optional also. It's not a BAD note, but sometimes it does not have the blues flavor.
For now, I only find 5 notes of the blues scale in the 2nd octave (with no bends or overblows,
1st 4th 5th 7th 8th
6 blow 7 blow 8 draw 9 draw 9 blow
This is a limited scale, but there are no "clinkers" in it. I would welcom other opinions. For example, I like the way the 7 draw (major 3rd) note sounds while going up the scale with a riff, but when going down the scale it sounds too unblue for me.
I would like to hear other opinions.
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Preston
352 posts
May 15, 2009
11:28 AM
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I think he means the draw note in the 7 HOLE is flattened down. He's not talking about the flatted 7th of the scale. Flattening the 7 draw note gives you the blue third without having to overblow the six.
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harpwrench
37 posts
May 15, 2009
2:52 PM
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I'm tentatively planning on it Preston.
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bluzlvr
188 posts
May 15, 2009
3:07 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh: If I'm not mistaken, the "your scale" that you're describing is the mixolydian mode.
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rabbit
29 posts
May 16, 2009
9:47 AM
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Jim Rumbaugh,
I fear I have failed to communicate.
The scale I described was:
1, 2, b3, 3, 5, 6, 1
This pattern is the Major Pentatonic scale
WITH a flat 3rd added. It's widely referred
to as the "Major Blues Scale." It does not
have a 7th degree, but i was talking about
altering the 7th Draw Hole reed and probably
contributed to confusion there, sorry.
I am told this scale, with & without the flat 3rd,
is all over country, country-rock & pop music.
I got over-stimulated (grin) when I discovered
you can play this as an alternative over the
I-chord of the blues and that you can alter your
harp to give this scale conveniently in the
6,7,8,& 9 holes. I'm going to have to work on
both this new scale and the 7draw alteration
because I'm too new to harp to know what I like.
I am interested in being sure I understand the
scale you used for so long. This is 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7,
correct? Thanks
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Jim Rumbaugh
43 posts
May 16, 2009
7:06 PM
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Rabbit
I see I did not analyze your first post close enough.
The idea of flattening the 7draw should give you the "blue third" you are looking for. I cannot tell you if you want to shoot for a "blue third" or should go for a "Minor third". I can see pros and cons both ways.
I now see the scale 1, 2, b3, 3, 5, 6, 1 and can say I have not used it, but I can blame that on ignorance. I picked it on the guitar and can see why you would like it.
Bluzlvr
You are right. Per Wikipedia, "the C Mixolydian mode and the C Dominant 7th scale are identical" This is the scale that comes naturally, when playing 2nd position with no bends or overblows.
Rabbit
The dominant 7th scale is what I played for so long. It has its place. But there are "bluesier" ways to play.
This thread has inspired me to finally read the definition of a pentatonic scale. I see that my opinions have been colored from my early days of playing bass guitar to Grand Funk Railroad in the early 70's. What I taught myself, turns out to be the Minor Pentatonic, 1 b3 4 5 7 8(1). And though I still get to pick the tune "My Girl" on bass occasionally, I have just learned that famous riff is the major pentatonic scale. 1 2 3 5 6 8(1). I always thought that the difference between major and minor is a flatted third, but in pentatonic scales, it is much more than 1 note difference.
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Arbite
50 posts
Jun 15, 2009
10:11 AM
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What do you miss out on when you flatten the reed?
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http://www.youtube.com/arbite83
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sopwithcamels266
111 posts
Jun 15, 2009
10:37 AM
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rabbit: Reply To original post,
Yea I do it Not on all my harps but I always have a couple with 7 draw down a half step or as we say in UK semi tone.
Iv'e gone past the stage talking scales chords in music I just do it.I am a jazz sax player by trade and to cut a long story short there are approx 342 western scales and related chords you have to nail in your head.
When it comes to blues harp I just hear sounds.
The advantage of taking that 7 draw down a semitone to me is that I can play faster licks at the top end.
6 over blow ( OB )is fine for most things but it is a different feel altogether.
Of course there will be pros on here that argue you can play 6 OB just as fast,well I can't so that is the reason I do it.
It's what suits you, right
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2009 10:39 AM
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Bluzdude46
62 posts
Jun 15, 2009
10:54 AM
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Ok I flunked Math, sorry I can't help with this
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sopwithcamels266
112 posts
Jun 15, 2009
11:19 AM
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Bluzdude46: I don't understand that post if you can't
help in the question why inform everyone that you can't.
But hey man,I will give you hope bluzdude46,
I am self taught in just about everything in life.Notice that sopwithcamels266 only put a humerous anecdote on the posts relating to our past history.
There is a very good reason for this. I have no qualifications whatsoever and yet I have taught post grad studies and in more than one subject.
It's like collecting medals, means nothing.That Kind of knowledge to others gives them a power over you that is why they want the information.
Nothing wrong in wanting to know where your from sure that's cool enough. That is where it should end.
The moral being that run your oun race,believe in yourself,and you can take things where ever you want.
Remember becoming A fine player is LIKE A WHEELBARROW IN ORDER TO BE SUCCESSFUL YOU HAVE TO PUSH IT.
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Bluzdude46
63 posts
Jun 15, 2009
12:42 PM
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Ok so much for levity, sorry to interrupt
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rabbit
43 posts
Jun 16, 2009
12:56 PM
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Arbite,
Sorry, didn't notice your question 'till now.
Answer is that you lose nothing. If you flatten the
7-draw on a 'C' harp it goes from B to Bb ( a flat 3rd.)
You can play the B as a blow bend on the same hole, 7.
Bluzdude46,
Keep up the levity, tee hee. :)
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rabbit
44 posts
Jun 16, 2009
12:59 PM
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Sopwith,
I can't do overblows and, as a beginner,
I'd rather concentrate on the fundamentals.
Like you, I'm not ready to convert all harps to flat 7 draw, yet.
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swampboy
1 post
Aug 27, 2009
7:36 PM
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The major blues scale - 2,3",3',3,4,5+,6+ or major pentatonic (major blues without 3') is the RELATIVE MAJOR of the normal blues scale - 2,3',4+,4',4,5,6+.
So if you can play the major blues or major pentatonic on a C harp in the key of G (2nd position) for instance, this equates to the regular blues scale/minor pentatonic in E with the tonic on 2&5 blow....5th position.
Also if you play a regular blues scale or minor pentatonic (without the bent 4draw) on a C harp in the key of G, these are the same notes as the major blues/ pentatonic in Bb, with the root note on 3'...11th position.
This makes for simple entry to the higher positions :)
Last Edited by on Aug 27, 2009 9:59 PM
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