(Many reasons but one at the top of the pile is LIFE EXPERIENCE)
In the jazz world often I come across very young teenagers, 13, 14, 15,paraded by parents that no nothing and understand even less,pitching them into at festivals. Getting oportunitites that they haven't earned
Because of their age they stand out,that's all.
For their age they have bits of technique which can be impressive to the dunderheads of the world.
Now in blues harp does something similar go on? Iv'e been told it does what are everyones views?
There are exceptions. Some kids have amazing musical skills at very young ages. Even without the experience they are able to not only imitate but develop a style of their own and do it very well. Stevie Wonder is a prime harp example. Jonny Lang was 17, I think, when his first blues album came out and it was very soulful. Have you heard Jay Gaunt? Jay is 15 or 16 now and he plays very well.
Unusual, yes, but not impossible.
---------- /Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com http://www.BlueStateBand.net
Last Edited by on May 30, 2009 10:01 AM
Check out my YouTube videos: www.youtube.com/zackpomerleau. I am not showing myself off, but defending my age. I know I'm pretty good, and I know I'm not just 'liked' because of my age. Sure, it sells. But, I say this, I know I have some chops, I practice all of the time.
I am a seventeen year old harp player, and although I know that I have a lot to learn, I do believe that I am pretty good, not only considering my age but in relation to most other harp players. No, I am not bragging on myself, I just know that I am in the top percentage of harp players in terms of skill. I think that it is rather possible for a young harp player to become what some may consider a virtuoso or fenom. I am certainly developing my own style as a harp player, by mixing elements of everyone that I listen too and slowly making them into my own style. I think that it is safe to say in fact that, Jay Gaunt, Zack Pomerleau and myself are really coming up on the "old guys". We have broad imaginations, and can exicute moves that 90% of harp players cannot do. ---------- Brandon Bailey
lol. its a new generation of players. it will happen like this through out history. the younger players do lack 'mileage" to quote the movie crossroads but that dosnt mean that they wont get it as they grow older. an while they do they will make an even bigger impact because of there skill. i support the younger players cause its something when i was young i wish i was able to do. so i say best of luck to them.
I'm an "old guy" but I bet these young guys have more experience than I have. I wish I hadn't waited 'til I was 51 to start!! ---------- If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Zack: I kind of expected you to say that but that's good man your fighting your corner and that's healthy.
Superchucker77:Yea, Ok man that's good too no false modesty for sure. In some ways I kind of think 17 may be way different. I don't really class that same as 13,14,15. May be because for me when I was 17 and half- 18 I was involved in War which ha, I certainly don't recommend.
I think McCoy Tyner was around 17 playing piano with John Coltraine,he was been given the spirit, emotion and freedom to develop every night.This had really nothing to do with instrument technique. But I hear you man good reply hopefully get a good debate going.
Buddha that's funny yea I'm interested too ( WHO are these old guys)
Yeah sop, I am sixteen, but closer to fifteen. I won't say I am amazing, I just know I have seen some of my hard work pay off. It's a good feeling. The mileage thing, though...That is very understandable. I find the huge issue with younger people is respect. I try to respect my 'elders' and my contemporaries.
If you haven't made it on the harp by the age of 12, basically, you're yesterday's news.
Of course, Little Walter first recorded for Chess in his late teens (b. 1930, first recorded in 1948??) and became a star with "Juke" when he was 22.
Clapton, for the record, had FINISHED with Cream by the time he was 23. He was born in March 1945; Cream played their Farewell Tour in the summer of 1968. He did all that stuff--The Bluesbreakers, Disraeli Gears, "Crossroads Blues," etc.--by the time he was 23. That's astonishing.
Last Edited by on May 30, 2009 12:03 PM
I'm just posting videos. I'll leave the judging to you. By any measure, Brody had "made it" by the age of 12, given the B.B. King endorsement and the famous blues guys he was sitting in with--Otis Rush, in this case.
I have to say technique but not convinced with the buster at 12 but Im sure thats developed.
I remember a student coming round for a sax lesson one time and asked me how long before i will be able to hear this etc etc? and how good could i get?
In the first question I said. When your ready to hear it you will hear it.
To the second question I said NO matter how good you get there will ALWAYS be some kid that shows up that can blow everyone away. 1
Last Edited by on May 30, 2009 12:10 PM
What's the deal with the "life experience" argument?
I think LD miller started playing at 7 and he's 15 now? that's 8 years of experience on his instrument.
Let's say XXX is 42 and he's been playing for 8 years as well; but he's also been divorced, beaten with a nightstick, smoked indian kush, woken up many times to catch the sunrise, and has 2 kids.
Does he have an edge because he's had more "life experience"?
Kids these days grow up very very fast. They've got highways of knowledge accessible to them at the click of a fingertip, they can network and get their name out there. I don't see a reason why someone like LD Miller can't be seen as a top player.
I remember hearing a story about a world champion chess player, years ago, taking a train ride. He had his set out and another passenger asked if he would like a game. He agreed and immediately offered to spot the other player a queen. The other player responded, 'You don't even know me, how do you know you can afford to spot me a queen?' The champion responded, 'If I couldn't afford to spot you a queen I'd know you.'
The moral of the story, at least by the time I heard it, wasn't that there was this elite circle that it took forever to break in to. By the time I heard this story chess had changed. There were tons of books available at every book store, there where challenging computer programs to play against, in general, people had enough tools available so many more people were what was once considered 'world class'.
I imagine the same sorts of things will happen because of the internet. Harp players will be able to assemble huge collections of the best music to listen to. They will be able to almost immediately look for help if they are having a problem with a particular technique. They will be able to learn theory without going to a conservatory or sitting at the proverbial knee of a master (although they may sit at the virtual knee of a master.)
So yeah, if a younger player hits the right combination of natural talent, starts learning young, is dedicated and finds the right resources, sure, a young player could be the best.
(Mozart was a child prodigy. I've also seen clips of Harry Connick, Jr. as a kid at a jazz festival doing a pretty good Satch impression.)
Would be interested to know if any of the top players actually started playing the harp ca after 40 or 50 years of age? Or did all the greats start really young?
I am 68 and I started playing as a teenager and gave it away for 50 years only coming back 3 years ago. I dont read music and my harp playing is by ear.
I think I learnt more, completely self tought ie no books - nothing, as a teenager. A lot of what I learnt though was bad habits. As I am now retired I can practice long and hard along with fantastic internet resources however the learning is for me not real easy. Very frustrating at times.
I wished I had not had to give away playing when I was young as learning is, I think, a lot easier and faster for a younger brain.
Most of the good mathematicians and chess players are very good very young. My understanding is that most mathematicians do their best work by the time they're 25.
Music is related to this. Certain kinds of music lend themselves to the mathematical mind, enabling child prodigies. Some violinists do amazing things by the time they're 10.
Blues is somewhat different--not least because blues tonality can't be reduced to mathematics.
Half of blues songs deal with the subject of sexual love--the pursuit of, enjoyment of, and/or wounds engendered by that "same thing," as Muddy called it.
I tossed off the phrase "virgin bluesman" in the piece I wrote about Brody Buster back in 1999--I implied that a paradox resided therein, or an absurdity--and I suspect that that was one of the things that pissed his mom off and led her to write an angry letter to the editor. But it's worth thinking about.
A blues life worthy of the name almost certainly requires something like a man's (or woman's) knowledge of that sort of.....thing. Young men know this. Many young men--at least according to the interviews I've read in Living Blues and elsewhere--start playing instruments because they want to get laid. I know that I did.
It's hard to play the blues with conviction unless you've experienced--or yearned for, I suppose--sexual love in the worst way, and suffered at least a couple of broken hearts. That's why blues verses repeat the A line with variation and emphasis: the repeated line is the pain of daring to love again and THEN getting your heart stomped on. (Bobby Blue Bland: "If you're going to step all over my heart, baby...the least you could do is take off your shoes.")
For all these reasons, the blues world takes the phrase "paying your dues" very seriously. It means that the older players have suffered more setbacks in the course of "making it" than the younger players can possibly realize. It means that any young player who is sincerely determined to master his craft--not just learn scales and rhythms and songs, but the ability to make music with other musicians in social/ritual situations and do so with grace and intensity--needs to spend some time sweeping out the gym, the dojo, the whatever. Playing the shit-gigs for no money, without expecting instant fame and instant approval.
Paying your dues is an important concept. It helps toughen younger players for the road ahead.
Four of the blues harmonica players whom I knew and shared stages with at Dan Lynch, a blues bar in New York, are dead. Four guys I knew. Bill Dicey, Nat Riddles, Bob Shatkin, and Motor City James. The first guy was part of the house band when I first showed up there. The middle two were friends and teacher of mine. The fourth ran another club, Finian's Rainbow, where Satan and Adam played many Saturday night gigs from 10 to 3:30. Those gigs were paying my dues.
In the last two years I've also lost Frankie Paris and Bill Perry, both of whom I played with, both of whom were featured in my last book.
That is the blues life.
Jason Ricci had a substance abuse problem (he's talked about this publicly, so I'm not breaking any covenant by invoking it), had trouble with the law, and got sober. He went through a truly lousy period in his life. Paul Delay spent time in prison and died young. William Clarke died when his heart burst while he was in his bathroom. I had a minor heart attack while sitting in with Jason, spent three days in intensive care, suffered panic attacks for a whole summer, and saw a psychiatrist for the first time in my life.
That's all in the past, but it's a part of what you might call the blues life I've lived.
I'm not suggesting that a younger player who wants to play the blues well needs to go in search of catastrophic experiences. I certainly didn't go in search of them. They found me.
In IRON JOHN, Robert Bly spoke about the so-called "time of ashes," when the Golden Boy for whom everything has gone effortlessly right suddenly finds things going terribly wrong. Bly insisted that the time of ashes was actually a gift: a period of underground living, seeking, and spiritual development. Many blues players who ultimately achieved something had that sort of unforseen and depressing down-times. I certainly did. I had several of them. I kept going. Good lesson. Dues paying.
The point is, there is really no rush to be the next big thing. Success will come if the talent is there and you work hard to realize it. Be nice to the older guys (and gals), even when they're a little grouchy. They've paid their dues. They've dealt with death, addiction, crushed hearts, and other harsh life experiences. They've survived. And THAT, my friends, is one of the most important things they've got to teach those who haven't traveled quite as far along the path.
Last Edited by on May 30, 2009 7:52 PM
Yoiks! Some Ive experienced just a bit too much. Have probably destroyed half my brain cells with booze. A lot I have forgotten or want to forget. Any interpretation wouldn't sound good on a harp. It would have to be real slow!
Adam, you keep yourself fit now don't you? Thought you ran marathons? I also am into fitness and clean living but I was a late starter.
I remember hearing a local successful Country singer say that as a youngster he yearned to be a rock star but his family steered him towards Country as it had a better moral fit ie no drugs like in rock. They told him if he became a rock star he wouldnt live beyond 40. He now cites Keith Richards (Rolling Stones)as being the epitome of Rock but having done everything bad and is still going strong well into his 60s.
I think that to get anywhere you need to pay your dues and experience what life throws at you. Only this way can you emerge stronger and more enlightened. Wouldnt like to go back though without making a few changes.
Another 17 year old here... I'm not one of the geniuses and I don't mean to show off but I did do pretty well in the harpfriends contest...
I'm just hoping that a blues revival will come up in the next twenty years so this generation can make its mark. ---------- "Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
I'm thrilled to see what L.D, Jay, Zack, and Brandon have accomplished. And they're all good guys - I've met 3 of them at SPAH last year.
There's an old adage that you can't play the blues unless you have had them. Frankly, I think that's a load of crap. Blues MUSIC is something you either feel or you don't. I don't buy the "you have to have been around" argument.
However.....
Because "Top Blues Harmonica Player" remains undefined here - I'll say what it means to me. And none of the young guys we're talking about here, despite their very real talent, is in that group - not YET.
Overnight sensations are truly rare exceptions. Top blues players rise to the top over many years because of their skill AND perseverance.
They have a body of work they can point to.
They've played in the greatest venues around the globe.
They have several albums.
They've played with other major stars.
They've a dedicated and large fan base.
Their names are well known in the harp community but also in the music industry.
They have their own bands and can afford to pay them
They're called upon to play gigs, commercials, TV and movie soundtracks, ad jingles.
They have booking agents.
They have record labels.
They've been paying dues and gaining ground for years.
Charlie Musselwhite. Norton Buffalo. Kim Wilson. Mark Hummel. There are others too - but THOSE are the top blues players in my book and by that definition none of the current crop of young players qualify. It IS possible - it is just THAT unusual. Michael Jackson/Stevie Wonder unusual.
---------- /Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com http://www.BlueStateBand.net
Last Edited by on May 30, 2009 11:34 PM
I met lots of older men when I was playing in Harlem who clearly felt the music deeply but couldn't play the blues. Feeling the music deeply is a prerequisite that millions of people share; it doesn't really speak to the issue I'm addressing, which is how to get from "feeling the music deeply" (which I certainly did at age 16) to playing the blues well. That takes a journey and the journey can't be sidestepped. If you sidestep it, it shows in the music.
As for important qualifications for superior blues harp playing, according to you, including having played in jingles, TV commercials, and movie soundtracks and being widely known throughout the music industry: I disagree. Those qualifications are strictly secondary in my book, and few of the people in my Top 20 lists meet them.
I try not get racial unless it's needed, but I'm surprised at the four names on your list--surprised that you've left off James Cotton, Billy Branch, Sugar Blue, and Phil Wiggins. I realize that they haven't done much of anything in the TV/movie/advertising line and, except for Sugar Blue and "Miss You," aren't that well known by the music industry as a whole, but they're all exceptional players, have made several dozen albums between them, and have certainly paid their dues. One of the bits of dues-paying they've done, in fact, is finding themselves repeatedly ignored when people come up with lists of important contemporary blues harmonica players. (Cotton usually makes those lists, actually.)
You and I do agree, I'm happy to say, on the importance of paying one's dues.
Last Edited by on May 31, 2009 5:37 AM
Woahhhh, I play music not because I want to get laid but because I like music. I started playing drums at four years old, that's crazy! Virgin Bluesman? That's idiotic. If you want to be purist about it, you need 'experience' to play the blues. If you want to be incredibly purist about it, you need to be black. Well, I've had experiences, and I am not going to share the many things I have dealt with at a young age...But, that is complete stupidity to believe a 'virgin' bluesman couldn't be a bluesman for real. I think many 'older people' have major issues actually realizing the fact that many young people have problems, and some worse than the older guys. It isn't a competition, but I know what's up with me, and I ain't no rich boy. And, Greg, thank you for the kind words, I agree whole-heartedly. I am not one of the greats, but I could be if I tried and wanted to, because I do believe hard work pays off. Paying your dues? I've payed some dues already, hard to believe being sixteen, I know, but not only fifty plus people have paid dues.
I believe that you having had a broken heart can make your blues a lot more soulful, and there is a certain degree of truth about paying dues...
But dying in a gruesome / miserable way? Come on, its not like these people knew how they'd die ahead of time and got the blues about it... I'll admit if they suffered for something like alcohol abuse and that eventually became their reason of death it'd make sense but I know I certainly don't get the blues because its possible that I may die on the toilet someday... ---------- "Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
just thought i'd add my tuppence worth ere! I watch the vid of brody buster, yeah for a 12 yr old he can play harp , he's learn't some chops, but is he really listening to the band or just sqawking all over it with a few few repeated licks , when Otis rush plays a solo, he cuts over it which don't add up! it reminded me of this clip i saw of this blues guitar prodigy (quin sullivan), blues is and always has beena social thing in a way that it the band or even a solo musician interacts with the audience on a much more down to earth basis , , it has to be believeable, blues is another form of american folk music when it comes down to it, you don't need to be a virtuoso to play it, you don't need custom harps, the lastest harp amp or the best mic !,yesterday after playing in the town centre,for about 3 hours , we came back to sit iin my garden and just had afew cold beers, got the guitars and harp out and enjoyed playing to ourselves.and whoever was out in their garden on a lovely sunny day. We all said that all musicians should play in the street, busk , after all the early bluesmen didi that all the time , they didn't just walk into a blues club ,plug in and become an instant hit! dues are'nt all about fame top gigs and name dropping , it's getting out there and doing it ,whether your playing sucks or not is not the issue. anyway there is always so many purists in any genre of music who spend to much time thinking about how to ruin the music scene instead of contributing to it! muddy waters always used to connect the blues with women and drinking, too much or too little of either is gonna get you the blues john lee hooker . listen to house rent boogie, lastly , i listened listened to seasick steve, i love his line , " I started of with nothing and still got most of it left"
Hey Zack - you said "I don't play to get laid" - don't you go ruining it for the rest of us!!! I'm 57, been married for 37 and still almost every decision I make is based on "Will this raise my chances of having sex" - I'm a shallow but simple man!!!!! ---------- If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Zack, you're only 16. Wait for a few more years and then you'll be doing stupid shit like fighting other men over a chick that isn't worth a shit because she's been playing you against the other guy you fought and then her real boyfriend comes back from Iraq and kicks your ass Marine style. Then you'll be doing even dumber stuff like getting drunk night after night because you feel like a loser because you couldn't even land a loser chick. Don't worry though, your mom will always tell you that you're special and people who don't know shit about the harp will tell you that you play great and remind them of Bob Dylan. So then the ask you to play the piano man lick or love me do.
If you're lucky, you'll become a hardened and grizzled young man with skin of steel like Colossus of the x-men and make it a mission to **** every woman in the bar like Shawn Starsky. Then you'll get into fights with your band mates for ****ing these woman in their hotel bed.
