Preston
411 posts
Jun 10, 2009
6:17 AM
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So I've been messing around with playing country harp. Problem is I don't want to sound like a wanky, country harp, I'd rather be a little bit rockin-country harp.
I also have been trying to listen to the advice Buddha gives us about not playing blues licks over country tunes and utilizing other positions, like 12th. (On an important side note, I have been playing nothing but 3rd position for a couple of weeks now, trying to get out of my 2nd position rut, but I'll get more into that in a minute. It is relevant.)
Anyway, I've tried woodshedding the major pentatonic scale in a couple of different positions, and you know what? I don't like it. Sorry. I just don't. So I thought I would go back to my theory study a little bit and brush up on playing the minor key over a major chord. For those of you who don't know, the major pentatonic scale is identical to that key's relative minor, minor pentatonic scale.
I was improvising over a song that was in the key of C with my G harp. I went back to playing 3rd position minor pentatonic scale to be in the key of A (C's relative minor) , and it hit me like a ton of bricks that I was definetely playing the 12th position major pentatonic. So it's all in my head and my point of view that I don't like the sound of playing the major pent.
So here's the short cut to all of us 2nd position/3rd position sticks in the mud who are only comfortable with minor pentatonic scale:
2nd position minor pent = 11th position major pent
3rd position minor pent = 12th position major pent
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Buddha
611 posts
Jun 10, 2009
6:26 AM
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that's how I teach those positions to noobs
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Preston
412 posts
Jun 10, 2009
6:31 AM
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I guess I definetely still qualify as a noob!
I was thinking about this too:
The C major pent= CDEGA
The A Minor Pent= ACDEG
To play minor over major, you are basically swinging your original root note to the end and making the next note the new root.
This sounds an awful lot like playing in a mode doesn't it?
Now I can go brag to my other musician buddies that I can play in other positions as well as being able to play in another mode, and it'll just be my little secret how easy it really is.
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chromaticblues
135 posts
Jun 10, 2009
6:54 AM
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Sounds like your learning the circle of fifths. That's called fourth position(natural minor).
Answer yes. Aeolian Mode.
Aeolian Mode works good with Marine Bands because the "A" which is the root note is tuned a little sharp on a MB. So draw 6 & 10 and 3 bent down a whole note are your root notes. I like fifth position, but not on MB's because the blow 2, 5 and 8 are -14 cents flat. Doesn't sound right. If you have something ET tuned try messing around with fifth position(phygian mode). Octaves are cool with fifth and you can make good use of the 6 hole overblow(which is the easiest)!
Anyway. The first five positions are worth learning.
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ZackPomerleau
167 posts
Jun 10, 2009
8:51 AM
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Aeolian mode. And, yes, that is what Buddha said to me. Although I see it more as a note layout thing, they are definitely similar.
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ZackPomerleau
170 posts
Jun 10, 2009
12:14 PM
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I disagree, the first five positions are cool, but 2nd, 3rd, 11th, and 12th will be used more as I have found. 4th, though, is inexcusable not to know as it is LITERALLY the major scale on your harmonica, except the root note is different. To play fourth in a major key look at the Aeolian mode A scale: ABCDEFGA. The key of A Major has a sharpened C, F, and G. So sharpen those notes. How do you do that on the harmonica? EASY, four draw bend is the C#, 5 overblow is the F#, and the six draw bend becomes the G#. So now arrange it:
A=3d" B=3d C#=4d' D=4d E=5b F#=5OB G#=6' A=6d
Hopefully this should help you. Now, I like to keep my information to myself usually, but I was bored and figured I could help you out. I like to help. So now you know how to use fourth position in more than a minor way!
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Preston
415 posts
Jun 10, 2009
1:53 PM
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I'm not sure I follow you Zack. Like you, I agree that a position is not locked into the minor/major designation like some people like to claim. However you can play this scale on any key of harp in different positions other than 4th. Or are you limiting this statement to a C harp? If that's the case then I get you.
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ZackPomerleau
173 posts
Jun 10, 2009
3:49 PM
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All positions are playable in major/minor. But, this only works on a C. Of course, on an A this would be an F# scale.
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RyanMortos
198 posts
Jun 10, 2009
6:44 PM
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Wow, thats great Preston. Now how would one describe that to us uber noobs who are still learning 2nd position playing, lol?
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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ness
19 posts
Jun 11, 2009
5:28 AM
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Ryan - I'm kinda in the same place. My musical knowledge, to date, has been obtained from internet forums and Wikipedia. I'm starting to get some of it though, and a portion of what Preston is saying makes sense. At least conceptually -- I sure couldn't put it to use yet.
Could anyone steer me to a good, basic resource for music theory?
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chromaticblues
142 posts
Jun 11, 2009
6:26 AM
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Zack who are you tring to help? If you just found fourth position. Do you now feel you are qualified to teach it to others? Please just practice. It's good to think, but it's good to practice too!
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Buddha
613 posts
Jun 11, 2009
6:32 AM
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Zack is my student and the best way to learn something is to teach it. The motto in Med School was "See it, Do it, Teach it" I still subscribe to that philosophy for myself and my students.
Zack has been an incredibly quick learner and is going to develop into one of the world's best harmonica players. The only other young player I have heard that will develop into something in the future is Jay Gaunt.
I've worked with a few of the young guns over the past few months, Zack and Jay have that "it" quality to them. They are constantly learning and absorbing new things no matter how abstract.
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Arbite
36 posts
Jun 11, 2009
6:57 AM
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Think ill have to do that Buddha Lesson soon =)
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http://www.youtube.com/arbite83
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chromaticblues
144 posts
Jun 11, 2009
8:05 AM
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Zack if 4th and 5th positions are cool. Why are they cool? And why is 11th and 12th more important. And no you can't phone a friend!
What about 1st position?
Oh and Budda I saw the puppet strings before you said anything!
Please let him answer the question!
Lets see what he really has learned!
Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2009 8:23 AM
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mr_so&so
127 posts
Jun 11, 2009
8:16 AM
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@Preston That was a useful insight. Thanks.
@ness I quite like www.howmusicworks.org
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Buddha
614 posts
Jun 11, 2009
8:31 AM
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Zack is no puppet.
maybe we should see what YOU know Chromatic Blues?
What makes you so knowledgeable? Who are you to question anybody else?
Why don't you post a mp3 of you playing so we can see where you are. You once mentioned you thought you could "smoke" me on stage. I doubt it. So let's see what ya got or are you just another keyboard commando?
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ness
21 posts
Jun 11, 2009
8:34 AM
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mr_so&so
Thanks - I'll give that a look
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chromaticblues
146 posts
Jun 11, 2009
9:33 AM
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A keyboard commando NOw that's even funnier than the puppet string! I like that.
What's wrong seem to struck a nerve!
If you have any questions feel free.
I don't claim to know everything like you do.
I don't claim to have the best tone on the planet like you do. I can come a lot closer to walter horton's sound than you can!
I can't play in all 12 positions, but I don't want to either.
And most of all I don't want to get into an Internet bitch fight with some one like YOU!!
I thought the puppet string thing was funny, because I new you taght him that!
I've been studying the harp for a long time.
And why can't I question some one?
If someone wants to say some thing they can. I have no problem with that, but asking why that is the case after is not allowable?
I just don't believe that 11th and 12 position is more important than say 1st or 4th.
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Buddha
615 posts
Jun 11, 2009
9:55 AM
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it's not that you struck a nerve it's more like you're being dumb by challenging a 16 yr old on his knowledge. challenging him on knowledge YOU don't even possess.
I'll tell you right now that 11th and 12th are FAR MORE IMPORTANT than 1st or 4th.
studying harp for a long time doesn't make you an expert. If you been studying for so long why can't you play in 11th or 12th?
I said I have the pure acoustic tone. I didn't say I had BWH's tone.
"I can come a lot closer to walter horton's sound than you can!"
Are ya sure? But let's find out, post and MP3 of your Hortoneque tone or STFU about it.
until you post some of your music you're nothing but a keyboard jockey.
Why do YOU think 1st or 4th is more important?? WHY WHY WHY...?
Put up or shut up.
Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2009 9:58 AM
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chromaticblues
147 posts
Jun 11, 2009
10:23 AM
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Yes I'm sure!
And I wasn't challenging Zack. If anything I was going to mention why those two positions are important. I use to teach and have studied music theory on and off for twenty years.
There are a lot of people that say the opposite of what you just stated.
It sounded like he doesn't understand that every key of music has a relative minor and that's what forth position is.
1st position is more important than 11th or 12th becuse;
Octave the root note
Tongue lifts on the chord
Chording/vamping
and you are an advacate of overblows correct
Isn't first position the easiest position to play chromatically(in the middle octave)
Oh and about the STFU
nice attitude
Please don'r try to bully me!
If we were face to face you wouldn't!
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Preston
416 posts
Jun 11, 2009
10:35 AM
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Thread hi-jackers
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Arbite
37 posts
Jun 11, 2009
10:43 AM
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What a Waste
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http://www.youtube.com/arbite83
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Buddha
616 posts
Jun 11, 2009
10:49 AM
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I am an advocate of music... not technique.
"Do you now feel you are qualified to teach it to others? "
That's a challenge. Is Zack qualified to teach? Yes some things. Is Zack qualified to share knowledge? Aboslutely.
"If we were face to face you wouldn't!"
Are you ugly enough to make me laugh or something? How about we just start with you music and see if that is threatening enough.
Again, post your music for all to hear or be quiet about it. Preston has posted his music. Zack has posted his music. I have music posted.
BTW- ChromaticBlues, you'd never make it past my dog
Sorry this thread got off track.
CB- let's stop this business. I've got no beef with you unless you continue to threaten me - this is twice now and that's unacceptable.
Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2009 10:59 AM
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ZackPomerleau
174 posts
Jun 11, 2009
11:00 AM
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Woah Chromatic, just because I have learned things from him DOES NOT MEAN I AM A PUPPET. I was simply sharing my musical knowledge from PRIOR experience. I knew ALL of that scale information BEFORE Buddha so don't go off saying that about me, I was just trying to help you use 4th position in a major way.
Another thing, I do not use fourth position yet, I am sorry. I can DO IT because I know where the notes are but I don't. And, what makes 11th and 12th better? Look at the scale for them, most of the notes are stable, except for 11th positions root which can be tough and twelfth positions third and fourth note. Almost every note in those positions work. Don't believe me? Try it. ALL of the holes will work just about except for the five blow (unless you do chromatic runs) in eleventh, and in twelfth it is the three draw.
First off, first position is great, I use it all of the time, but lets be honest, who wants to overblow EVERY note for the middle octave? IT IS NOT STABLE. And, if you freak about tongue slaps and chording you're looking at it in the wrong perspective. I look at it in the perspective of notes, and if you can do chords and stuff, cool. THAT IS WHY SOME POSITIONS WORK BETTER THAN OTHERS IN SOME SITUATIONS. Now, do your tongue slaps in fourth and fifth. See what I am saying? I'm just saying that in COMPLETE usability, I must agree with Chris. 2nd, 3rd, 11th, and 12th are the most useful, but I do believe 1st is the next to be added to that list most likely. So, thanks for the bashing, I just wanted to pass on my musical knowledge.
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ness
23 posts
Jun 11, 2009
1:05 PM
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Hate to take this thread off-topic, but mr_so&so said:
"@ness I quite like www.howmusicworks.org"
I looked that over and it appears to be just what I was looking for. I had read several things and my head was swimming, but this site lays it very nicely and is easy to understand. Thanks again.
John
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ZackPomerleau
176 posts
Jun 11, 2009
3:10 PM
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Cool ness! I have never seen that site before. I will check it out :)
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RyanMortos
204 posts
Jun 12, 2009
8:01 PM
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Huh.
Im just realizing this tonight & didnt realize that when someone says a position number they are referring to a position on the Circle of Fifths. So, any key's 5th position will be 4 steps clockwise from the key the harmonica is named & so on. I feel like Im just making a breakthrough everyone else knew about but I hadnt taken the time to look at yet.
And then I started to see that there's a pattern for finding a key's major or blues scale on the full chromatic scale. Also that blues scale has one less note then major scale.
I guess its just easier to say that youre playing in 3rd position on a C harp then to say youre playing within the D scale on your C harp? And if you say youre playing 3rd position on your C harp is that D major scale or D blues scale?
How do you guys commit all these things to memory, lol?
More questions likely to follow...
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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ZackPomerleau
183 posts
Jun 12, 2009
8:11 PM
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Well, third position is usually minor, but it can mean anyone of those. And, no, there is more than one note lost from the major scale to make a blues scale. You get rid of the 2nd and the 6th but you flatten the 3rd, 5th (and keep the regular 5th), and 7th. The circle of fifths is great. Find C. That is first position. Next note on it? G. That is second. The third note? D. Third. That's how it works man!!! Glad you got it!!!
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Preston
421 posts
Jun 12, 2009
8:27 PM
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Great catch Ryan! I remember when I figured this out finally, and it wasn't that long ago. It will lead to alot of other "Aha" moments, I guarantee. You asked:
"And if you say youre playing 3rd position on your C harp is that D major scale or D blues scale?"
Well, you can play both if you know what you are doing! If you can bend and overbend, the harp is fully diatonic, so there aren't any notes that are "missing". Learn what makes a major scale or blues scale, and then learn where the notes are on the harp.
It really does de-mistify after awhile.
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ZackPomerleau
185 posts
Jun 12, 2009
8:33 PM
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Well, I'll help you out, a blues scale is 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7. That is a blues scale. Just replace the numbers with their respected notes. A major scale is Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step, Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step. Describing this in notes, lets take the C major scale for example. C is the first note. How many steps is it to get to D? One whole step. D to E? One Whole Step. E to F? That is a half step. F to G? A whole step. G to A? A Whole step. A to B? A whole step. And, finally, B to C? That is a half step.
I hope this helps. I'm not trying to flaunt my knowledge, I really want to help as I usually don't get an opportunity to, and I actually know this stuff!
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