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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Subjectivity
Subjectivity
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
7 posts
Jun 18, 2009
8:16 AM
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I've been reading this forum for a while now and I wanted to pass along an observation to a trend I've seen in numerous threads.
I see somebody write "Harp A is good." Then, the expert opinion is posted that it sucks or X is better than Y,many threads about gear go in that direction the follow up is stated more as fact than opinion. In some cases, I agree with the statement. Others I don't. I try to keep my comparison comments to myself or specify that it is opinion, because that's exactly what it would be, unless I'm stating a specific fact, such as reedslots A are wider than B, X is typically gapped tighter than Y or tuned EQ, etc.
What I am trying to say is, don't interpret opinion as fact. It's not. That also goes for the things I say about harmonicas.
Opinions are opinions, OK, but the truth is the harmonica is the most subjective thing you can imagine, especially when you start getting into the nuances. All you can do is take in all you hear, see and read and then see what YOU like.
I can pimp a $30 Seydel Solist and make it outperform an 1847 I've customized... THAT IS THE SOLIST OUTPERFORMS FOR ME. That is despite the fact I can look at the typical 1847 and it's obviously a way better harmonica than a Solist. The slots are better. The reeds plink louder. The harp is louder.
But when I start playing, it's different. I believe it's because the Solist reed is narrower. I cut my teeth on narrow reeds.
The farther along you go in this harmonica journey, the more set in your ways you get, the more you gravitate to something specific. The more you are able to manipulate a specific nuance, the more narrow the field of instruments you can do it on becomes.
There are some things that are universal, such as Harp A leaks at a specific point. Harp B is gapped inconsistently. Harp C was made right before the maker changed the tooling, so the reedslots are sloppy. Those are facts that can be presented as such.
There are so many variables based on not only the harmonica, but the human body. Each of us has not only a specific harp that will play best for them, but a specific key that we can manipulate the easiest, that plays the loudest for us.
I've been playing since I was five, so I'm pretty familiar with how harmonicas feel based on the size of your resonant innards.
When I was a kid, I mowed grass and saved up for comic books and harmonicas, so I had a lot of harmonicas. My sweet key, the one I could do the most with was D, low keys were harder as were higher ones.
Around age 12, the C became that sweet key for me. At 14, I got a D 270 chromatic, which today you'd probably call a Low D. I could get very little sound out of the lower holes. I had the air, but not the tone and I was looking for tone... by that point I'd been playing harp for 9 years!
I also got a Meisterklasse (the handmade one) about the same time. I couldn't play it very loudly or well. I stuck with the higher keys.
As I grew my resonant innards grew and the keys I could play the best went lower and lower. By the time I was in college, that A Meisterklasse was my BEST harp and with other harps, even, A was my best key.
After college, I hardly ever played for the next eight years or so. My best keys went right back to the point where I left off... the A. I had also stopped growing.
Each harmonica is full of various nuances that makes it unique. So are human bodies. Put those two together and it's a very, very subjective game.
Dave
www.elkriverharmonicas.com
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2009 9:00 AM
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Preston
427 posts
Jun 18, 2009
8:36 AM
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Preach on Brother Dave, preach on!
Seriously though, I'm glad you said this. I think there are alot of us that, deep down, know this already, but there are impressionable beginners starting out that really need to hear this.
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mr_so&so
134 posts
Jun 18, 2009
8:36 AM
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Amen, Dave. We often forget or discount the human element which is, of course, all important.
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Kingley
53 posts
Jun 18, 2009
8:40 AM
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Great advice Dave.
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mickil
254 posts
Jun 18, 2009
8:45 AM
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Very interesting post. I've not heard any of those observations berfore; either here or elswhere on the web. At least not quite so perspicuously.
I imagine that it will offer more hope to some of us who still struggle with this technique or that technique, or this key or that key - I still find I have to work really hard on my 3 draw bend's intonation on a D, at least on some harps, and I'm by no means a beginner.
Since I've started using this forum, I seem to have noticed that egos can easily clash from time to time, mine included, though I can't be bothered to argue these days if it means typing more than a few lines. I get the impression that some folks will always like to try and assert their opinion as if it were fact; and not just on here.
I'm aware of your reputation, so thanks for the helpful insight.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
8 posts
Jun 18, 2009
8:59 AM
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Thanks, all.
Mickil, this actually started as a response in another thread, but I took it out to hopefully avoid the ego clash you mentioned ;)
You said you have to work hard on the D. To add another Mistwagen of variables in there, the D and the C constructions are usually different because D is short slot and C long slot on virtually any harmonica, the one-slot 1847 line would be an exception. With that in mind, It's much harder for me personally to play a short slot to begin with, but take that short slot down to a Db and it's easier for me. Go figure.
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RyanMortos
213 posts
Jun 18, 2009
9:04 AM
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Good post Dave.
I noticed opinion stated as fact a few times & it is frustrating to a beginner/advanced beginner. As I spent more time on this forum it became easier to identify those. Im much more concerned at this time with the how of harmonica & music (theory) as opposed to all the what that is discussed.
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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sopwithcamels266
116 posts
Jun 19, 2009
3:51 AM
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Dave:Ok Iv'e read your post and to me your stating the obvious but that is not the point I wish to make.
The truth of the matter that you quite rightly try and bring to everyones attention; is that life is'nt like that.
By the time folk are 7-8 years old their main character is formed. They will go several different ways in life even on occasion reinventing themselves but that inner thing is already been made.
There are dogmatic egotisical bullies on this site for sure like all forums it's normal.
The problem lies in the youth that can get caught up in the influence of these people because some of these bullies are using their techniques as a player as prime influence.
You can't change their attitudes that is what they do.
You have to stand tall and be able to recognise it for what it is.
Like find like and what goes around comes around.
Every forum is the same in essence.( eg, Fat lazy people hang round with fat lazy people,)
In the end the arrogance catches up with them and they come tumbelling down and no one is prepared to help them back up.
For example the misinterpretations on this site I find highly amusing and I think that is the way you HAVE to view all the posts.
To me an example of doing everything RIGHT letting things flow and spreading the gospel as best they can is the site leader Kudzurunner.
All art is subjective there isn't such a thing as best.
Hey Dave this is just my opinion right? ha ha.
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2009 4:17 AM
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kudzurunner
515 posts
Jun 19, 2009
5:06 AM
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Thanks for the kind words, Sopwith.
I very much agree with the premise of this thread. As much as I love to offer advice based on my long experience, I'm also well aware that each of us is an individual and that mastery of the harmonica must be an individuated journey. Boards like this can be an incredibly useful way of drawing on collective knowledge and intelligence to quickly center on the key issues, and present relevant info on those issues, but it's important to try to keep ego out of it. I'm always learning something new, and I'm happy about that. In the Zen tradition people talk about cultivating "beginner's mind," and that's a good thing. No presuppositions. Just sit. Or: just pick it up and play it. How does it feel? Forget about how it's SUPPOSED to feel. How does is actually feel? Does it work for you?
In the 2+ years that I've been YouTubing and doing this site, I've purchased a HarpGear 2 and another amp; I've shelved my beloved Mouse in favor of a Kay amp, which I'd put away for a decade; I've learned that I know absolutely nothing about tweaking harps (I'd never heard of embossing; I still need somebody to teach it to me); I've started to overdraw on the 7 hole. I've stumbled across the Electro-Voice N/V468, a terrific mic for miking harp amps. And, thanks to Brandon Bailey giving me a little stomp-thingie, I've just purchased Pete Farmer's "Farmer Foot Drums," and am reinventing myself as a one-man band.
I've also learned about dozens of fantastic players that I didn't know much or anything about, thanks to players who pushed stuff at me.
And that's me: a professional of sorts who has been playing for 33 years.
It's hard to be too dogmatic when people keep on showing you cool new things.
Actually, there's one issue that I'll admit to being pretty dogmatic about--a guy pushing a gospel, if you will. And it traces back to the name of this website: MODERN blues harmonica. In my humble opinion, contemporary blues harmonica players have been too beholden to the past, to "tradition," as they understand it. I want people to shift the balance a little: learn the tradition, deep and rich as it is, but then work very hard to come up with something new, something representative of OUR time, not some other time.
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2009 6:46 AM
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Philosofy
218 posts
Jun 19, 2009
7:50 AM
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Dave, you forgot one aspect of this forum: if someone asks about a specific harp, Chris will come along and tell them to buy a Buddha harp. :)
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
13 posts
Jun 19, 2009
7:54 AM
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Philosofy, that may, or may not, have been in the back of my mind when I wrote that.
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Philosofy
219 posts
Jun 19, 2009
9:45 AM
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Dave, how's my 1847 Silver with rounded ends?
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rabbit
45 posts
Jun 19, 2009
9:53 AM
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Another "Thank you, Dave."
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
14 posts
Jun 19, 2009
2:23 PM
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Philosofy,
There's only one guy I ever did an 1847 Silver with rounded ends for. If you are that guy, it's finished and I plan to have the Marine Band finished over the weekend and all shipped out Monday or Tues...
Dave
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Philosofy
220 posts
Jun 19, 2009
4:58 PM
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That's me!
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Buddha
666 posts
Jun 19, 2009
5:38 PM
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Philosofy,
You should buy a buddha harp it will help you with your "pretentious wanker music".
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2009 5:39 PM
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
16 posts
Jun 19, 2009
6:10 PM
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Buddha, I appreciate your modesty.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
17 posts
Jun 19, 2009
7:05 PM
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Adam, about the embossing if you're gonna be at the contest in Huntington next month, I'll show you. Or, if you wanna stop by my festival in Sept. I'll show you. If you can get by this way (Parkersburg, WV Or Marietta Ohio area) we'll Git-R-Done on the embossing, West Virginia style.
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isaacullah
255 posts
Jun 20, 2009
2:59 AM
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I was just checking in on the forum from an internet cafe here in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, and I had to login to add my approval of Dave's words above. I also wanted to add that while all opinions are subjective, one also has to remember that your opinion of those opinions is also subjective! What I mean by this is that all opinions are NOT equal, and that each person who reads a list of opinions on a particular topic (eg. harp brand) will rank those opinions differently according to what she/he is looking for in those opinions, and where she/he is coming from. Over time, as we all find our niche here at this forum, and as we all begin to better understand each other, we all develop such lists in our head. We all "know" that when so-and-so says such-and-such about topic X, that that opinion is probably sound. Now I'm sure if we were all asked to rank forum members based on our perceptions of their knowledge about various harp-related subjects, we would all come out with different lists. This is the reason we all didn't vote the same way in the recent play-along contest, and it's also the reason why certain topics always bring out TONS of comments, while others don't.
Anyway, Hello from Jordan! I'll be back stateside in a few weeks, and more active in the forum from then on.
PS. Dave, that A Solist-Pro you sent me is top-notch! I've been playing it a lot over here... Our dig house is masonry with no carpets or major furniture so the natural reverb is KILLER. That harp sounds freaking fantastic with the 'verb!
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
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mickil
257 posts
Jun 20, 2009
4:10 AM
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I suppose that half the trouble with this forum - or any forum, for that matter - is that some people are at a stage, which we all pass through, whereby they don't yet have enough comprehension of the topic at hand to understand the replies to the questions that they ask: a bit like me going on a physics forum and asking about relativity when I don't even understand mathematics that well.
They seem to find a rapport with certain members, which is natural enough, and subsequently ignore the advice of others; or, more irritatingly, to me at least, they simply don't bother to acknowledge others' input to their question.
I've had this happen to me, and I expect it now. But I still use this forum because the good still outweighs the bad.
I think the most tiresome aspect of this forum / any forum / the World is the obsequiousness that some members show to others, while ignoring those people they don't think are worth 'sucking up' to.
Some fellas on here have got heaps of experience, both amateur and professional, yet their reputations don't precede them quite so much as kudzu's or Buddha's, for example.
Still, I'm not complaining. The more you develop, the more you change the way you use this tool, at least I do. You soon learn who's going to say something worth saying and who's going to make an attempt to wind you up, which is easy enough to ignore, that is, once you've got your ego under wraps.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
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