Philosofy
235 posts
Jun 30, 2009
11:28 AM
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We've discussed to death the fact/theory on whether comb material has anything to do with sound, and I'd like to discuss other aspects of the comb.
Combs seem to come in three varieties: wood, plastic, and metal.
Wood comes in many varieties. Honer Marine Bands seem to use pear wood, which I've never seen in my woodworking store. The Suzuki Firebreath uses rosewood, and I've seen maple used as well. I would think you want a hard, closed pore wood. Oak wouldn't work as well because of the open pores. I hear chestnut is pretty cool. Personally, I don't prefer the pear wood (the only wood I've played), but I'm a woodworker, and want to customize some harps on my own, and I don't own any metalworking equipment.
Plastic is a material that feels good on my lips and tongue, and is easy for the manufacturer to mold. There seems to be two types of plastic combs: solid (like Seydel 1847 Silver) and ribbed, like the Lee Oskar. The Lee Oskars aren't solid, have hollow chambers, and a lip around the reed plate. Duplicating these types of combs would be difficult.
Then we have metal combs. Aluminum seems to be the only metal in a non-customized harp, but customizers (notably Chris Reynolds) do fantastic work on brass and stainless steel. I have a Suzuki Promaster, and while I love the action of the reeds, the taste is very metallic to me. My saliva is a little acidic, and when the metals of the comb, reedplate, and cover come into contact, it sets up a mini galvanic cell, and tastes like tin.
I'm curious about what people here prefer, and why. I also have a question for the experienced customizers. I've measured seveal combs from different harps, and they are all different thicknesses. As I make my own wood combs (I'm trying maple and bloodwood), does the thickness matter? Of course, to use the original screws, it would have to be the same, but if I ordered screws could I get them a little long and cut them down to my comb thickness? Can I nut and bolt all the reedplate screws, or should they be self tapping?
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Kingley
153 posts
Jun 30, 2009
12:01 PM
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Some good questions there.
My preferences is for the pearwood comb on the Marine Band. I just feel it gives me the best tone.
You could use any wood that hasn't got toxic properties I suppose. But close straight grain woods would probably be better.
The thickness wouldn't matter too much I'd expect.
Just as long as you can get your mouth comfortably around it to play.
Using bolts is not really a good idea as they will over time come loose and then your harps would lose it's airtight qualities. Better to either use self tapping screws or use a tap (as I do on mine).
By all means you could use longer screws and cut them down. Or you could use them as internal coverplate supports.
I use 10mm M2 screws for my reedplates on my Marine Bands. But if you use 12mm then they act as coverplate supports.
It's all just personal choice really.
One thing to bear in mind is that if you choose to tap M2 screws then you need to use a 1.6mm drill bit on the bottom reedplate.
Last Edited by on Jun 30, 2009 12:04 PM
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tookatooka
260 posts
Jun 30, 2009
12:53 PM
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Re: The plastic combs. Don't forget you can also use Acrylic or Perspex. Apart from the fact they would be perfectly airtight and solid, they can be machined much the same as wood.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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nacoran
96 posts
Jun 30, 2009
2:12 PM
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I've never played with a metal comb or on a high end wood comb, but I prefer plastic to cheap wood combs. pear wood looks awesome. My first harmonica was a Blessing tremolo. It's pear wood has streaks of red and green in it.
I don't know about the sound qualities of different woods, but Brazilian cherry is supposed to be super hard. There are several different types of ironwood that might be cool. There is also a type of poplar that has red patches in an otherwise whitish wood. Burls would be cool. I have a walking stick I made of poplar that had a vine growing up around it. Instead of the vine choking the poplar the poplar just grew around it, so there is a burl that runs up in a spiral around it.
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Oxharp
84 posts
Jun 30, 2009
2:25 PM
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I just got a Brass comb from a UK guy who sells them for £26.00 drilled or undrilled for MB and MB Delux.
They are really well machined and as smooth a a babies bum.
I have fitted it to a MB Delux in Eb and it soumds just the same as a wooden comb but it feels like a plastic comb and is really comfortable. I love MB and have moved away from the special 20 in favour of the better tonal quality I hear in MB's.
I dont like the wooden combs as my lips tend to get dragged over the comb and its harder to move smoothly.
The Brass comb is a great alternative and has saved me the bother of sanding, drilling, sealing and generally messing about with the wood to get an air tight seal.
I had no problems atall in matching up the faces of the reed plates with the comb.
Its well worth considering.
type in:
Brass Comb for Hohner Marine band Harmonica
ebay name is johnny4scoops
Last Edited by on Jun 30, 2009 2:33 PM
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Tryharp
222 posts
Jun 30, 2009
3:56 PM
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Phil,
Re: the promaster. I get that same taste issue. Someone posted a while ago that you can paint the end of the comb with ( I think ) clear nailpolish, and that taste vanishes. I havent tried it though cause I dont play mine that much.
Tryhap
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snakes
284 posts
Jun 30, 2009
4:26 PM
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Well, I really never liked wood combs until I bought a Suzuki Firebreath. The more I play that harmonica the more I like it. I generally prefer a plastic comb, but I can notice the difference in the Seydel 1847 Silver comb and a Suzuki Bluesmaster or even a Seydel Blues Session. I'm not sure what it is, but the Silver definitely has a different feel that is not bad, but less preferrable than the Suzuki Bluesmaster or the other Seydel.
As for thickness I prefer a thinner harmonica. I don't know whether it makes any difference in the sound, but it makes it harder for me to bend when the harp is thicker.
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Philosofy
237 posts
Jun 30, 2009
6:28 PM
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Tryharp, that was me that offered that tip, but the nail polish turned a little white after awhile.
I'm also interested in what combs fit different harps.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
55 posts
Jun 30, 2009
7:06 PM
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Philosofy, the Jason Ricci marine Band I've got has a Firebreath comb on it. You should be able to interchange some hering and Hohner.
With Seydel, the Favorite, Favorite Black, 1847, 1847 Silver, Solist Pro are all interchangeable. The Session and 1847 Silver Plus are interchangeable.
The Solist is interchangeable with nothing, but you can use its parts as parts for prewar Seydel models.
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mickil
306 posts
Jul 01, 2009
12:53 PM
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Fascinating thread.
As much as I like some plastic combed harps - SP20, Seydel Session - I prefer the traditional comb design, regardless of the material used. I don't have a rationale for that, other than I just like old-fashioned, traditional things.
One very important thing for me is whether the thing is designed to fail in an indeterminate length of time. Does anyone remember that thread I put up 'Pure Rage At Hohner'? I was absolutely livid when my MB Dlx swelled after only a couple of weeks. How much more would it have cost to seal the damn thing fully?
I get the impression that there's a lot more 'profiteering' in the harp industry than in most other types of musical instrument production. Even the top end Seydels, which I love, use that poxy little plastic sticker to mark the key, which I presume will come off eventually; and they use a non-standard screw driver that you can only buy from them AS PART OF A COMPLETE TOOLSET if you want to maintain your Seydel harps. Absolutely bloody disgraceful.
Anyway, I go of topic. My understanding is that the depth of the comb, and therefore the chambers, is connected with volume you can produce, but I'm not sure about that.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on Jul 01, 2009 12:56 PM
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
60 posts
Jul 01, 2009
2:59 PM
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Mickil, you can get the posidrive screwdriver online in a lot of places. The screwdriver used to be available by itself and when they ceased to sell it individually, I said hey, there aren't a lot of these screwdrivers here, so we need to sell it. The problem they told me was, Seydel wasn't able to get them in enough quantity consistently (all those tools are made in Germany someplace)and they had to stop selling some of that stuff individually to meet demand of the toolkits.
I don't think they had much of a problem with it in Europe, but when they started selling here, nobody had a screwdriver to fit it. They've since developed another screw in response to the trouble we've had with it.
I started seeing this new screw about six months ago maybe. A lot of harps in circulation still have the old screw.
If all else fails, you can blunt down a small phillips screwdriver and it will work. Or, you could just buy the screwdriver from someplace else.
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GermanHarpist
420 posts
Jul 01, 2009
4:19 PM
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Some thoughts - rambling along...
I've read somewhere that the volume of the harp is determined by the amount of air that is chopped up by the vibrating reed. The amount of air should not be controlled by the pressure: as we all know, there is an optimal pressure for each reed to have the best sound (less pressure for long reeds, more pressure for high reeds). Thus the volume is controlled by the size of the hole that the air has to flow through. As far as I know, however, the bottleneck is not the chamber or the hole but the reedslot/reed itself. Thus enlarging the holes/chambers should have no consequence in that effect.
On the other side, we all know the size of the chamber before the vibrating reed (our mouth, the chamber) affects the tone a lot. So increasing the size of chamber probably improves the tone (by how much, I don't know). If somebody would like to experiment with that I would be very curious...
So I would probably try to make the comb rather thick as long as it doesn't become uncomfortable to play.
Another thing: As I said before the volume of the harp is determined by the amount of air that is chopped up by the vibrating reed. All the air that passes by without being chopped up doesn't create any sound (which explains the importance of embossing and sealing the harp, especially for the lower holes, as these need less air/pressure to play well...).
Another thing regarding embossing: I'm pretty sure embossing doesn't only change the volume of the sound but also the tone. The reason being, that the air that passes by beside the reeds probably also affects the tone... (in a negative way - whatever that may be...).
I know this is kinda off topic, but I hope it somehow makes sense and that someone gets something out of it...
Btw: these are mostly educated guesses... I'm a total customizing beginner myself.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
Last Edited by on Jul 01, 2009 4:21 PM
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
62 posts
Jul 01, 2009
7:47 PM
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I've experimented with comb thickness to a great extent. Thicker, thinner, sloped, all kinds of stuff.
My experience has been the thicker the comb the weaker the tone and the weaker the response. Doesn't matter what keys. It could be from reedplate to reedplate transferance, could be air pressure change is quicker. I dunno. All I know is thinner is better and I thin down all the combs on my customs. Part of that is flatness, that's where you see the biggest difference, but there is improvement as you get thinner.
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nacoran
99 posts
Jul 01, 2009
8:05 PM
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I'm only basing this on my understanding of physics, but a thick comb might be absorbing some of the sound.
A sounding chamber, I think, amplifies sound by changing some of the duration of the sound into loudness. A hard come would absorb less energy and preserve more sound. It's about the conservation of energy. The sound you create has a total energy level, which can't be changed without adding more energy to the system (electronic amplification or blowing harder). You can get also get some gains in what you hear by reducing how much sound you lose before it gets to the ear (like opening up the back of the harp).
I think higher covers might make a louder noise, although you'd shorten the duration of the sound. That doesn't mean your notes would be shorter, but rather thinner. Even although we don't hear it clearly, there is a subtle echo effect and overtones in note. Some of that gets turned into volume. By the time you figure electronic amplification into the mix you need a sound engineer to figure out what is happening.
I've been wondering how much sound gets carried through the covers and how much is just coming out the back.
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GermanHarpist
421 posts
Jul 02, 2009
1:10 AM
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"...a thick comb might be absorbing some of the sound." Why? High mass = high sound absorption?
"A hard comb would absorb less energy and preserve more sound." Why? Elastic material absorbs more than hard material?
"I've been wondering how much sound gets carried through the covers and how much is just coming out the back."
Sound waves are very similar to explosion pressure waves in that they search for the easiest way out. I.e. The bigger the hole to get out without passing metal the more their affinity to go there. I would guess that this relationship is non linear. I.e. the tonal change that happens when you put a tiny hole into an otherwise completely sealed of harp has a much greater effect, than for instance adding this tiny piece of metal to an otherwise totally unsealed harp...
And of course the thickness of the coverplates are crucial. As there is always the same energy that passes through the coverplates (at a certain relationship of open to closed parts of the coverplates). Thus the thinner and lighter the coverplate material the better it will transmit the sound...
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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GermanHarpist
422 posts
Jul 02, 2009
1:34 AM
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David: "...but there is improvement as you get thinner." Is that the case for all keys...?
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2009 1:58 AM
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mickil
307 posts
Jul 02, 2009
2:22 AM
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Dave, thanks for that info. I hadn't even bothered to look properly at my Seydel harps; I was just going by what I'd read. I'm not very tekkyfied.
Comparing them with my Hohner MS harps, it does look like they use Pozidrive #1.
Apologies to Seydel, though not for the tacky stickers.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
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Philosofy
239 posts
Jul 02, 2009
5:22 AM
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David, I think you're onto something here. Bending is an interaction between the two reeds: the further apart they are, the more difficult it is for them to interract.
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GermanHarpist
423 posts
Jul 02, 2009
7:44 AM
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"...the further apart they are, the more difficult it is for them to interract." - That depends on how they interact...
Here's an extract of Klaus Rohwer's site. He's a german harmonica player that did some research concerning this subject:
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" Jetzt zur Physik: man hat hier ein System von drei (und nicht etwa nur zwei) schwingungsfähigen Gebilden vorliegen. Es handelt sich um die beiden beteiligten Stimmzungen und die Luftsäule im Mund-Rachen-Raum. Letztere befindet sich beim Mundharmonikaspielen idealerweise in Resonanz mit der Schwingung der gerade gespielten Stimmzunge; in diesem Fall ist der Ton besonders laut und schön. Wenn man jetzt die Mund-Rachen-Stellung verändert, so dass die Resonanzfrequenz tiefer wird, so macht die Stimmzunge der Mundharmonika diese Veränderung mit, d. h. sie schwingt nicht weiter auf ihrer eigenen Resonanzfrequenz, sondern vollführt eine erzwungene Schwingung auf der Resonanzfrequenz des Systems aus Stimmzunge(n) und Luftsäule. Nähert sich diese Frequenz der Resonanzfrequenz der zweiten Stimmzunge (im vorliegenden Beispiel der Blaszunge), so gerät auch diese in (erzwungene) Schwingungen. Beim tiefsten Bendington schwingt dann die Blaszunge alleine, obwohl der Luftstrom eigentlich in die "falsche" Richtung weist. "
Now to the physics: there is a system of three (and not two) vibrating entities. There are the two reeds in the chamber and there is the column of air in your mouth cavity. The latter should ideally be in resonance with the reed that is played - this makes the tone full and beautiful. Now, when you change the size of your mouth cavity, the vibration will adapt to the new resonance chamber. The more the resonance chamber goes towards the harmonics of the other reed, the more this one will be forced to vibrate. At the lowest point of bending only the blow reed vibrates although the air seemingly streams in the wrong direction.
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This would suggest, that the distance of the reeds really have no effect on the bending. It merely depends on the resonance chamber created by your mouth and throat cavity.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2009 7:49 AM
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GermanHarpist
424 posts
Jul 02, 2009
8:36 AM
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ok, I just build a little device with a huge chamber. And it was impossible to bend... could have been, that it wasn't perfectly airtight though...
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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Kingley
171 posts
Jul 02, 2009
8:46 AM
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LOL!
Maybe you should get it patented! :D
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GermanHarpist
426 posts
Jul 02, 2009
8:52 AM
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... way ahead of you...
patent pending!
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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nacoran
104 posts
Jul 07, 2009
4:08 PM
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GermanHarpist- the reason I was wondering how much sound got carried through the covers was I was wondering about Harmonix harmonicas and whether there were other solutions to how to internally mic a harp.
As to the rest, the more I think about the more complicated it becomes. Sound proofing materials are usually soft. It's got to be a more complex relationship than I was originally thinking. If you throw a baseball at a hard wall it doesn't bounce much. If you throw it at one of those pitch back nets it flies back at you, but only if the net is taut. If the net is loose the net absorbs the energy and doesn't return it as a bounce. (I'm not sure how culturally relevant a baseball reference is to a GermanHarpist.)
Since the sound is following the course of least resistance it might be possible to close the back and direct the sound (and air) out another way, maybe making a real trumpet call or a better way to mic the harp. (I experimented with lining a trumpet mouthpiece up with a harmonica hole to see if the vibrating created by the mouthpiece would change the sound out of the harmonica. Basically I got the trumpet mouthpiece noise and the harmonica noise, but they didn't do anything interesting, except I could play two pitches, although one sounded like a duck call.)
That's a really cool experiment you got going there. Maybe you need bigger reeds! I've got an idea for a harmonica that plays chromatically without needing to know what notes are in what key that I need to mock-up.
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GermanHarpist
459 posts
Jul 07, 2009
5:29 PM
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Well, there actually is another way of internally micing a harp. It measures the vibration directly off the reed. One of the models out there was developed by this crazy harmonica scientist I've mentioned above (link). However, apparently it doesn't really work...
About sound proof materials: There are basically two kinds: Materials with high mass, like concrete, are very good sound absorbers.
The other ones are basically materials with holes in which the sound "looses itself"... Like egg cartons which you can find in cheapo studios.
The only reason these are soft and light is so they can easily be installed.
Thus, I don't about that baseball reference.
To the experiment of aligning the trumpet mouthpiece with the harp: The only way I could imagine something different (than your harping duck) coming out, is if you could get the same pitch out of the mouth piece as one of the reeds, hitting the harmonic/resonance... Just as if you would sing into the harp...
The thing you mentioned of closing the coverplates and leading the sound to some kind of cone... I think that already exists...
" I've got an idea for a harmonica that plays chromatically without needing to know what notes are in what key that I need to mock-up. " - sounds interesting, could you elaborate a little...
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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Buddha
797 posts
Jul 07, 2009
5:51 PM
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I have one of those electric harmonica prototypes. It sucks.
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scstrickland
118 posts
Jul 07, 2009
6:20 PM
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nacoran, I don't know about your baseball analogy. Yeas ago when I played soccer, If I had you stand beside me while I kicked a soccer ball against a brick wall, I could take your head off with the rebound. So the question is; are sound waves static like a baseball or dynamic like a soccer ball?
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2009 6:21 PM
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nacoran
106 posts
Jul 07, 2009
6:45 PM
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GermanHarpist, I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you...
Actually, it's a fairly simple idea. It's based on the slideless chromatic designs like the 2 piece Huang Musette (except it would be one harp and probably not a tremolo) combined with a .
So, you have two sets of holes, one for the key of C, the other for the key of C#, but then it has the space for a slide like a chromatic. Instead of a slide though you have a punch plate for each key. The punch plate blocks either the top or bottom interior hole, according to the key. The player just needs to know which plate to put in and what hole to start on for the key (which would be easy enough to mark).
C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#
C D E F G A B C
Of course, it's pretty easy to lay it out as an all blow or a blow/draw on the same hole playing the same note, but it gets much more complicated if you want it to perform like a blues harp.
The next step, to get rid of the punch plates gets even crazier, but I've said too much... the Hohner Secret Police are at the door...
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2009 6:47 PM
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nacoran
107 posts
Jul 07, 2009
6:47 PM
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Shoot, I can't format it right, my notes won't line up...
SCStrickland, a baseball isn't nearly as bouncy as a soccer ball. I guess the answer to that would be how bouncy is air, since sound (at least sound in the air) is basically air bouncing into air. I have some all plastic harmonicas. Sometimes I scrape the crud off of the area around the holes. To make sure I don't accidentally inhale the crud I'll run them under water (from back to front so I don't push the crud farther into the harp.) I've noticed if I play them before they are dry, aside from spraying water everywhere, I get a really nice full tone. The water bouncing around in the harp has a very different sound quality than air. I wonder if they'd let me play at the local pool!
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2009 6:53 PM
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Aussiesucker
319 posts
Jul 08, 2009
2:11 AM
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I think that there is a lot in comb thickness ie I agree with Elk that the thinner the comb the better the tone & response.
I have an assortment of harps (none custom) from expensive to cheap. ca 80 including Chromatics. I am a fan of Suzukis & Lee Oskar for preference as I dont like wood (too hard to clean).
A real cheapie that is hugely IMHO underated is the Suzuki Folkmaster. Small comb, well built, airtight with 7 screws. It has a lovely tone. It is the size of a MB. It is virtually indestructable. It has however a weak volume that is easily improved simply by widening the covers.
Would be interested in others views of this cheapie. I find myself reaching for it in preference even to Promaster.
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Hollistonharper
109 posts
Jul 08, 2009
6:01 AM
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@Aussie--I agree with everything you say about the folkmaster. Am onterestedin your comment about widening the covers. Do you just mean opening the back up, or some other technique? How would you widen the covers?
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MrVerylongusername
406 posts
Jul 08, 2009
6:20 AM
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I have a folkmaster that's over 10 years old - I don't use it a huge amount as it's an F harp (i prefer Lo F) but I do like more than a Marine Band.
One thing I'm wondering - how large is the arc-swing of a reed? - how thin can you go on the comb?
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jaymcc28
78 posts
Jul 08, 2009
6:23 AM
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@Aussie, Hollistonharper: I disagree on the Folkmaster. Most of my harps are Harpmasters and I really like them. I wanted to pick up an E harp but since it wasn't going to be used much I decided to try the Folkmaster, figuring Suzuki makes a nice product and I could save a few bucks. Bad decision. I find it terribly leaky and difficult to play. I even tried the micropore tape sealing that Hollistonharper mentioned some time back and it still hasn't improved.
That being said, I am using it as my 'experiment' harp. Maybe I'll open up the covers on it since I intend to try that on my some of my Harpmasters anyway. If "widening" them is different I'd love to hear about it.
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Buddha
799 posts
Jul 08, 2009
6:24 AM
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I don't like the thinner combs and have the best results with a slightly thicker comb.
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The Gloth
139 posts
Jul 08, 2009
7:30 AM
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I don't know about the combs, I prefer wooden ones for the same reason as mickil's...
But one thing I'd love to try and play is that trumpet call harp (it figures on the cd cover of Hazmat Modine). I wonder what does it sound like ?
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MrVerylongusername
408 posts
Jul 08, 2009
7:32 AM
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It's a tremolo harp and the horns don't really do anything significant to the sound. Great for show - not very practical though.
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Aussiesucker
322 posts
Jul 09, 2009
3:47 PM
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Hollistonharper> I open the covers up by simply grasping the cover plates at the back and levering them apart. They then have no protection against being squashed together so I carry them in a larger Blues Harp box.
Jaymcc28> Yes I agree the higher keys in Folkmaster are not that great. My favourite is an Ab. I have 6 Folkmasters and none of them are leaky.
For me they are a great knockabout harp ie the ones I play when I'm munching on crisps & enjoying a beer. However I love my little Folkmaster in Ab. They also have to be popular as they always seem to be in stock in stores over here.
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jaymcc28
83 posts
Jul 10, 2009
7:06 AM
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@Aussie: yes, I suppose it could have something to do with the higher key.
So, for your covers, you "grasp them"? With a pair of pliers and just bend them up some? Like I said, I'm willing to butcher this folkmaster in the name of education...
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Aussiesucker
323 posts
Jul 10, 2009
2:16 PM
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Jaymcc28> Na! Just gently prise 'em apart at the back. The cover plates are not that strong that you need to attack with pliers ie use your fingers. They don't need to be opened up much to improve the volume. If the spacer rattles just remove it ie you need to strip the harp right down. Me, I don't worry about the spacer as it only rattles if you shake the harp.
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