Harpist
11 posts
Jul 05, 2009
10:29 AM
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I was wondering someone could guide me in a more creative direction; particularly to improve my limited blues playing vocabulary in various positions ... with a more creative flow.
Any assistance would be much appreciated.
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Buddha
773 posts
Jul 05, 2009
11:08 AM
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pick up your favorite harp and play your favorite lick. then pick up any other harp and play the same lick in the same key as your favorite harp.
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Harpist
12 posts
Jul 05, 2009
11:28 AM
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Wow, that's a great idea! I picked up a C harp and started with the 2 hole draw, ending with the 3 hole draw. I then picked up an A harp, playing the same riff with the 4 hole blow and ending the same riff with the 5 blow. I picked up a G harp and tried the same riff. I started with the 4 draw but could not match the note of the 3 hole draw on the D harp. What would the next step be?
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Harpist
13 posts
Jul 05, 2009
11:31 AM
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My mistake, it was a D harp I started with.
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Buddha
775 posts
Jul 05, 2009
11:38 AM
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keep doing it with more difficult licks and then do it it with songs with simple melodies like Amazing Grace.
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GermanHarpist
458 posts
Jul 05, 2009
11:38 AM
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I think that would be the 5ob.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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Harpist
14 posts
Jul 05, 2009
11:50 AM
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Excellent challenge, Chris. Thanks for the insight.
Got a question on you vibrato tutorial:
While I was always a proponent of diaphramic vibrato, my eyes were opened after seeing/hearing you give a masterful clinic on tongue vibrato and would like to expand my technique in that realm of playing. The problem is my delivery. It's too choppy on the lower notes and I lack the necessary flow when I speed up. Any suggestions?
Marc
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Buddha
776 posts
Jul 05, 2009
11:56 AM
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thank you.
Learn to whistle. If you can do it whistling then stick a harp in your mouth, it's the exact same action.
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Harpist
15 posts
Jul 05, 2009
11:56 AM
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The 5 overblow? Someone must have told you my weakness. I've got to work harder on my overblows ...!
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Preston
451 posts
Jul 05, 2009
11:57 AM
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I think the next step should be memorizing where all the notes are on your favorite harp that you are doing your favorite licks on. That way you know what notes you are looking for when you switch to another harp.
It sounds to me like you are thinking in terms of scale degrees, which is perfectly fine too. When you said 2 draw to 3draw, I immediately thought to myself that is the root and major 3rd. And it sounds like you did too, because when you changed to first position, you knew what holes you needed to play, but got lost when you went to third position because of the 5OB.
So if you are going to think by scale degrees, you need to familarize yourself with all the scales' patterns for every position.
Which is why I think learning riffs by notes may be a little quicker.
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Harpist
16 posts
Jul 05, 2009
12:05 PM
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I'm whistling, and on the high notes and higher key harps it sounds real nice, but with the low key harps I still sound a bit too choppy. I'll continue work on my delivery while playing scales ?).
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Harpist
17 posts
Jul 05, 2009
12:10 PM
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Great input, Preston. Thanks.
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GamblersHand
48 posts
Jul 05, 2009
12:57 PM
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Also David Barrett has a book each on 1st and 3rd positions. It's blues-based and both have repeated information, but some nice riffs and exercises - including transposing 2nd position riffs
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Buddha
777 posts
Jul 05, 2009
1:07 PM
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I'm going to disagree with Preston. Not that he's wrong or because it's a bad idea but because I believe music in general is taught incorrectly as a whole.
Music is a language. Think about how you learned to speak, you had multiple experts in your language show you "riffs and licks" everyday. You learned the different emotional weights behind each of these licks and riffs. You learned intensity and dynamics and most importantly, you learned how to communicate.
Not once before your first 5-6 years of playing did anybody start talking to you about verbs, nouns, pronouns, adverbs, conjunctions etc.... yet you could communicate what you want to say in your own special way.
Each tone on the harmonica is a word and that word can be found in different places on different harmonica and even different instruments. Become familiar with the "word" and soon you will be able to communicate whatever you want because you are familiar with words that you intrinsically know rather than the technical aspects behind it.
Eventually if you want to become a "language" scholar then you can learn the hows and why of your language.
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tookatooka
276 posts
Jul 05, 2009
1:19 PM
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Good Point Buddah. That's the way I'd prefer to learn. When I was studying Life Drawing, the tutors expected us to learn all the names of the various bones in the body. I got hacked off with that cos I wanted to paint the skin, not the skeleton. I think they just wanted to make it harder than it needed to be to justify their salaries.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2009 1:20 PM
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Andrew
404 posts
Jul 05, 2009
1:20 PM
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Coincidentally, I was talking about the disc Nine Below Zero (compilation - SBLUECD049) by Rice Miller (Sonny Boy Williamson II) earlier today. On it you can hear him playing 1st, 2nd and 3rd position on a C harp, so maybe it would be a good disc for you to check out, Harpist.
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2009 1:21 PM
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Buddha
779 posts
Jul 05, 2009
1:23 PM
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many of the greatest players in the world took up theory at a later age. It's no coincidence to me that many of them are plays that changed the landscape of music for their instruments.
Jaco Pastorius and Victor Wooten are two of the more recent guys who became ultimate badass bassists before learning theory.
I think learning theory first will not necessarily hamper your music but it will hamper your sound because you get put into a box that is hard to escape from.
It's not unlike the same box that most of you blues guys are in... locked away in 2nd position for the most part. If you step outside of your box for a moment you can see how everybody is so rooted in 2nd position, they see and hear everything from that perspective when in fact there are often better and easier ways to play a song.
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2009 1:26 PM
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Harpist
18 posts
Jul 05, 2009
1:46 PM
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Well said, Chris. I need to break out of the 2nd position box in order to expand my vocabulary.
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Buddha
780 posts
Jul 05, 2009
1:49 PM
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what did it for me when I was around 17-18yrs old was to carry ONE harp per week. I would try to play everything I heard on one harp no matter how shitty it sounded. After a few weeks it stops sounding like shit and you start to build intuition with all of the harps and tones.
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Harpist
19 posts
Jul 05, 2009
2:32 PM
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Good advice. What key do you suggest I try first?
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Buddha
781 posts
Jul 05, 2009
3:01 PM
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whatever key is closest to you hand now... the point is you'll go through all of the keys you have. Don't worry if you don't have all of the keys, just use what you want. I always did it while I was driving because I couldn't just focus on the harp.
musicians, like anyone who can speak can just do it, you don't think about how to say the word EARTH or HARMONICA you just say it. What you want to do is prepare your ears and create pathways to hitting the correct tones on whatever harp you have.
I've demonstrated before that I can just pick up any harp and play it. It doesn't matter to me what key its in I can still play and add to the music. I don't do this as a matter of show and don't ever just play random harps at a gig because not everything sounds great but developing your ear and the pathway from sound to manifestation is what you want to achieve. When you have that then back fill with the theory and everything else if you feel you need to.
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Harpist
20 posts
Jul 05, 2009
3:21 PM
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Thanks much, Chris. I'll do it. Tomorrow I'll start with the key of E, stick with it for a week and then switch as you suggested. Coincidently, I do alot of playing while driving as well. I have a burdensome commute and the playing makes it much easier.
Marc
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oldwailer
812 posts
Jul 05, 2009
3:28 PM
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On the mouth vibrato--I found it easiest to practice at first in 1st position--because it is easier to do on blow notes. It's still a thing in progress for me--but I'm getting there. . .
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Harpist
21 posts
Jul 05, 2009
4:06 PM
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Thanks, I'll give it a try.
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Harpist
22 posts
Jul 05, 2009
4:29 PM
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Andrew,
Excellent song by Sonny Boy Williamson... love it. Many years ago my sister had worked for Chess Records and I got to listen to Sonny Boy, Howlin' Wolf and others who were instrumental in molding my 'style' while growing up. While I still love the standards and enjoy listening to and playing them,I have a great desire to build on my limited foundation by hearing and copying guys like Adam, Chris, Jason and a handful of other influential greats thanks to the internt.
Marc
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arzajac
20 posts
Jul 05, 2009
5:20 PM
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Chicken or egg?
The reason why 2nd position is prevalent is because it's the easiest. All you need to do is learn to bend (and even then, you can get away with a lot even without bending) and you can play 90 per cent of popular music.
But if you want to play in different positions, the prerequisite is learning to overblow - which isn't easy.
So which should you learn first? Learning musicality by playing blues in second position or learning to play the chromatic scale on a diatonic harp? Which will lead to the "best" form of music?
In other words, should I learn my vocabulary first or should I learn how to articulate a thought first?
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Harpist
23 posts
Jul 05, 2009
5:32 PM
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Arzajac,
I'm quickly coming to grips with the fact that I need to include overblows into my playing. Not having the necessary skills to customize my own harps has brought me to the conclusion that I must buy a good custom harp if I want to grow.
Chris,
I'll be contacting you mid-week to order a custom harp.
Marc
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Buddha
782 posts
Jul 05, 2009
5:36 PM
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arzajac... please think about your answer again. Totally off base and bound by perception which is EXACTLY the problem I am speaking of.
I highly doubt you can play in all of the positions fluently so how can you possibly speak on which is easiest?
OB are not any more difficult than any other note. And you don't need them to play in other positions.
Let's test your knowledge...
What key harp?
What position?
How many OBs?
http://www.harmonicapros.com/music-tools/TheDeb-DaveTherault.mp3
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gene
209 posts
Jul 05, 2009
6:01 PM
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Overblows...I dunno. I can't play'em and I can't tweak my harps and I'm too cheap for customs. Do we really need those elusive overblows? With AAALLLL of my knowlege and experience (OK...I don't have any), I say no.
Somewhere on this forum, somebody posted a video of Howard Levy. He was playing overblows right & left. We, as harp players say, "Wow! He sure can play those overblows!" But ya know what? I don't think those overblows sound very good. And he's the best. Buddha has said that very few players can play them so that they sound good.
So why bother? There's plenty to do on a harp without striving for crappy-sounding notes.
Hats off to Christelle, though. I don't know she's playig them unless somebody says she is.
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2009 6:03 PM
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arzajac
21 posts
Jul 05, 2009
6:40 PM
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Buddha,
I'm a rank beginner asking a question.
Should I focus on being able to play the chromatic scale before I try to make music or should I focus on making music and then extent that by learning to play the chromatic scale?
(I take it you get shit on a lot, which is why you assumed I was challenging you.)
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Buddha
783 posts
Jul 05, 2009
7:38 PM
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No Arzajac, you make unfounded statements like
"The reason why 2nd position is prevalent is because it's the easiest. All you need to do is learn to bend (and even then, you can get away with a lot even without bending) and you can play 90 per cent of popular music.
But if you want to play in different positions, the prerequisite is learning to overblow - which isn't easy."
Now you say you're a rank beginner?
To answer your question, you need to have a goal. What do you want out of the harmonica? Why do you play it?
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arzajac
22 posts
Jul 05, 2009
8:30 PM
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I've been playing for less than three months. I've read lots and that's what I concluded. Most people who play the blues harp play in second position. The blues scale seems to be the most accessible in the second position, hence it's easier.
If you don't believe I'm a rank beginner, you should hear me play. But enough of this bullshit - You made a comment about "music in general is taught incorrectly as a whole" and I wanted to know how this impacts a person like myself.
You say that we lean how to speak before we learn the rules of grammar and you think it should be the same for music. But (to continue the metaphor) what about someone who can only babble? What's the bare minimum amount of theory that a person needs to know (or should a person avoid learning the stuff and just play?)
Why do I play? Because there seems to be a whole lot of music that can come out of such a small instrument. And the music that it produces can sound better than most other instruments I know - to my taste, anyway.
What do I want? I want to be able to sound out the melodies that pop into my head though the harmonica. Thats pretty vague, I know.
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2009 8:31 PM
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
81 posts
Jul 05, 2009
8:35 PM
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One of the things I like about fourth position is the lack of overblows needed.
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Buddha
784 posts
Jul 05, 2009
8:42 PM
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arzajac,
get your ear in order. get out of the "trying to play everything in 2nd position" box. Pick a song that you like, that doesn't have harmonica in it and learn to play it. You will learn more about harmonica and music than you would by copying other harmonica players.
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arzajac
23 posts
Jul 05, 2009
9:02 PM
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Okay, but that's a steep learning curve.
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Buddha
785 posts
Jul 05, 2009
9:11 PM
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only as steep as you think it is. Imagine how steep it would be if I said to learn theory first...
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arzajac
24 posts
Jul 05, 2009
9:36 PM
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Yes, but in a second position 12 bar blues song, there is a good chance that I will be able to hit all the notes. The traditional way's learning curve is less steep in the sense that the stuff is more within my reach.
I just listened to "Africa" (original version by Toto) and tried to play it on the first harp I grabbed (G). It's gonna take me a long time to be able to overblow to produce the last note of just the opening line. That's a lot of work which is pretty much unrewarding for the first little while since I will keep running into notes that I can't yet play.
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Andrew
405 posts
Jul 06, 2009
12:39 AM
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Surely one of the reasons 2nd is popular is because it's the easiest position for the I-IV-V chord structure. (Is it possible this chord structure was invented on the harp?)
3rd is easy because the blues scale comes naturally. If you can't play it yet, learn Summertime starting on the 6 draw (that's 3rd position). The biggest surprise for me is if you play a standard I-IV-V in 3rd, then the IV chord is the DRAW (in the bottom octave), rather than the blow!
When Elk says no overblows are necessary in 4th, this is only true if you are playing in a minor "mode" (I use the word mode with caution). If you want the blues scale or the major scale, you'll need that 4 OB. But it's probably worth playing that minor mode in 4th just to give yourself confidence that positions are not really obscure.
Jason is great in 3rd, and if you buy Rocket Number 9, then, apart from a few things in 3rd, he's also playing Sonja in 12th, which isn't as difficult as it sounds (but it sure is beautiful), although the 6 OB comes in useful here. Also he tells you on the sleeve notes which harps he's playing on each track.
To OB you just need to close down the 4, 5 & 6 blow gaps. It's not really customisation.
Once you've done that, you can think about overdraws, but they are far less common than OBs. And even then, the 7OD is possibly the only one most players will ever need (with the 9 being second favourite, I guess, but it depends on your favourite position and if you really want to play the top octave that often. And just because you can blow-bend a note, doesn't mean it isn't better played as an OD. But I've only got about 2 harps with the 7OD set up, and I never play it except when I'm practising all the major scales chromatically. But I'll leave the more experienced ones to tell me how wrong I am!).
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2009 1:08 AM
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DutchBones
227 posts
Jul 06, 2009
1:30 AM
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There's some pretty valuable ( and understandable) advice you're giving there Buddha. My biggest problem is not being able to express what I hear in my head directly through my harp (regardless the key)
Guess I have to learn the "words" on my harp so I can find the right "words" for "telling my story"
If you think about it, it's the obvious way of doing it..... (imo)
Thanks for shining your light in the right direction
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DutchBones Tube
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2009 1:31 AM
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Bluzdude46
70 posts
Jul 06, 2009
7:17 AM
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Interesting perspective, Buddha. I like it. Unfortunately I don't understand all the musicology and scales. Others might say I play by ear, I've always thought I played with my Heart. I got slammed a few weeks ago for making a jest in a thread that I couldn't contribute to the conversation because I sucked at Math.
In a way I feel that a lot of people get caught up in the definitions and the hole#>scale>position and while I will never knock anyone but really admire the work they put in to learn it, I still feel we reduce the music a little when we render it down to "The Math" of the music
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