ChrisA
33 posts
Jul 06, 2009
4:46 AM
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Just out of curiosity here, when were ob's used for the first time in recorded blues music history and who did it? Thanks
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Buddha
786 posts
Jul 06, 2009
5:45 AM
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blues birdhead johnson 1927
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ChrisA
34 posts
Jul 06, 2009
5:49 AM
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Thanks Buddha, next question, any of Adam's top ten players used them?
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Kingley
190 posts
Jul 06, 2009
6:02 AM
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None of his top ten used them.
In his second ten Paul Delay and Billy Branch might have done, but I'm not certain of that.
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Buddha
787 posts
Jul 06, 2009
6:02 AM
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no. what are you getting at? Harmonica players are generally copy cats of each other in one way or another. You can bet that if ONE of them had figured it out back then, most if not all of you would be doing it now.
playing blues is mostly a 2nd position thing, most of the notes bend down to give you a mournful sound. remember, whoever started doing this first did so because he had a particular sound in his head and found a way to express it. If he were Turkey instead of Africa then maybe we'd all be playing in 7th or 8th position instead of 2nd.
Just about everybody on this board does what they do because of what came before them. For me, tradition is nice but I prefer to do my own thing. If I were a painter, I wouldn't take a famous painting and continue to try to copy it. I might do it once to get the feel and emotion for painting something so beautiful but in the end I would never make it as nice as the original. So what the use in continuing such a method?
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MrVerylongusername
391 posts
Jul 06, 2009
6:04 AM
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I think the Blues Birdhead track in question is "Mean Low Blues" and was 1929.
*EDIT*
Found a good post on the HArp-L archive
http://www.harpl.com/200188348.html
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2009 6:07 AM
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Buddha
788 posts
Jul 06, 2009
6:14 AM
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yep 1929.. 1927 is still stuck in my head from when Filisko told me 1927.
I have the track too.
you can hear the OB that is used with intention at :46
http://www.harmonicapros.com/music-tools/1929-Mean_Low_Blues.mp3
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MrVerylongusername
392 posts
Jul 06, 2009
6:16 AM
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Thanks Chris - I'm listening to an internet stream right now, but it's only an excerpt - full track much appreciated.
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ZackPomerleau
335 posts
Jul 06, 2009
6:37 AM
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Chris, any idea on the first overdraw? In 1967 at the Filmore Paul Butterfield did an overdraw on the 8 hole, Bb. It was a mistake, but it was an overdraw.
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ChrisA
35 posts
Jul 06, 2009
6:45 AM
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Listening to Jason Ricci's video on the usefulness of ob's in blues last night, specifically moving licks played on the the first octave higher on the harp is what prompted me to start this thread. Now, I had a strong feeling that the top ten players did not use ob's even though they must have been aware of this technique. So, why they did not use it in the way that Jason explains it is what intrigues me.
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Kingley
191 posts
Jul 06, 2009
6:53 AM
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Because in all probability they weren't aware of them.
Howard Levy is credited with being the first person to use them extensively in a musical context and also made a lot of players aware of them.
Before that they weren't used extensively at all. If Little Walter, etc knew of their existence then as Buddha stated earlier we would probably all be doing them as standard.
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MrVerylongusername
393 posts
Jul 06, 2009
6:57 AM
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Rhythm Willie was another historical player; I don't think he used overblows, but he definitely recorded in 5th position.
He and Little Walter (and most of the others in Adam's Top 10) overlapped chronologically and geographically. (Willie lived and played in Chicago and died in the early 50s). Walter must have know about him - one story even says he was the only player Walter was scared of cutting heads with - but I don't think Walter ever recorded in 5th. Being aware of a technique and having the ability or desire to do it are two different things.
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2009 7:01 AM
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MrVerylongusername
394 posts
Jul 06, 2009
6:59 AM
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Kingley - don't forget the Will Scarlett stuff that predates Levy
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Buddha
789 posts
Jul 06, 2009
6:59 AM
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Will Scarlett and Mike Turk were using them with intention before Howard even started playing harmonica. Look for an album called Beans taste fine by Papa John Kolstad and Mike Turk. You can probably get it from Kolstad's record company Mill City Music, he most like will answer the phone....awesome guy.
The CD was recorded 1966-67 though it was released in the 70s
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Kingley
192 posts
Jul 06, 2009
7:07 AM
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I bet that's an interesting album.
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Andrew
406 posts
Jul 06, 2009
7:17 AM
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I'm just listening to Daddy Stovepipe playing Greenville Strut, probably from the same album you got the Birdhead track from, Chris, and I think I'm right in saying Stovepipe is playing in 12th position on a C harp! I'm going to listen hard to this old music - it's really under-rated.
Robert Cocksey is freakin me out a bit - he seems to be playing 1st position on an F harp in the top octave, but at the end he's playing an E natural that doesn't sound like a blow bent 10-hole.
(sorry about the thread drift)
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2009 7:21 AM
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Buddha
790 posts
Jul 06, 2009
7:18 AM
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Beans Taste Fine is a must have CD for harmonica players. Just buy the album, I know John Kolstad personally and played with him many times. He's a great guy and he re-released this album with money out of his own pocket and still sends Turk his share even though they aren't exactly on speaking terms. When I did the summit in 2000 I was trying to get Mike and Papa John to play the music from this album but Turk refused. The album was released anyway.
you can hear clips here
http://www.amazon.com/Beans-Taste-Fine-Kolstad-Wildman/dp/B00005M0TX
Buy it from Papa John directly if you can
http://www.millcitymusic.com/artist/Papa_John_Kolstad
The hot club from East Lake St is good too and features Clint Hoover on harmonica. I would have been on this album but I moved to AZ.
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2009 7:19 AM
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Buddha
791 posts
Jul 06, 2009
7:22 AM
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THIS is the track I learned OBs from
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00154ZXES/ref=dm_mu_dp_trk11
I wish you could hear the whole thing.
My playing is influenced by this album more than any single player. If you listen, especially the blues tracks, you can hear it in my playing.
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ChrisA
36 posts
Jul 06, 2009
8:36 AM
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Thanks for all the infos guys, some names and albums here i never heard of, looks like I am going to investigate those players a little further.
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ZackPomerleau
339 posts
Jul 06, 2009
9:34 AM
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http://free.napster.com/player/?play_id=21543912&type=track
There ya go guys, I can definitely hear some Michalek in there. That's a cool track. I love Howard, but these guys get NO credit for their overblows.
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mr_so&so
155 posts
Jul 06, 2009
9:54 AM
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I've got nothing to add, except to say "interesting thread". I love sifting through pre-war stuff. Now I've got a few more leads thanks to you guys.
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kudzurunner
559 posts
Jul 06, 2009
10:00 AM
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Jimmy Fadden of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band uses an overblow or two on at least one of the tracks on "Will the Circle Be Unbroken," released in the early 1970s.
I wasn't familiar with Papa John Kolstad or that album, but it's a great find. Here's what I found at CD Baby (where you can preview all the cuts, BTW):
Papa John Kolstad with Wildman Mike Turk
Beans Taste fine
©
Reissue of 1975 recording of Papa John Kolstad and harmonica player Wildman MikeTurk.
tracks
"notes
Papa John's classic 1975 album Beans Taste Fine,which features legendary harmonica player Wildman Mike Turk is now available on CD. The re-release also includes 3 bonus tracks. A number of leading professional harmonica players have said that "Beans Taste Fine" is a seminal record alum for the harmonica. Turk's technical brilliance combined with his fluid,jubilant style makes you want to play the harmonica just like that.This album is also a classic example of the synergy of the duet;in this case the 12 string guitar and harmonica."
On the track that Zack has dredged up, Turk plays beautifully, but I only hear a handful of overblows and one of them, a 6 ob late in the cut, is the sort of strained screechy thing that gives overblowing a bad name. The rest of his playing is brilliant.
I'd like us to use this thread to assemble an accurate history of overblowing, because it certainly needs assembling.
I know that William Galison showed me how to overblow in September 1987, when I was about to sub for him in the bus-and-truck tour of "Big River." He also, around that same time, gave me a copy of Howard's "Harmonica Jazz" cassette, and that blew my mind.
I started throwing overblows regularly into my solos within a year--I've got cassette tapes from the street from the summer of 1988 to prove it--and by the time I went into the studio with Sterling Magee in February 1990 to record, for example, "Sweet Home Chicago" with "Blue Monk" thrown in, they were a part of my amped-up style.
I got a chance to see every major and minor touring harp player who passed through New York between 1985 and 1996. None of them--including Magic Dick--were overblowing. That's all I was listening for; nobody was doing it.
In the early 1990s, as far as I knew, there was only one other guy out there who was using overblows as an integral part of an amplified blues harmonica style, and that's Carlos del Junco. He sent me a copy of his first album back then; it impressed me greatly, and made us friends. It was called "Blues" and was released (according to his website) in 1993. My first album was Satan & Adam, "Harlem Blues," released in 1991.
Now, I'm not claiming that Carlos and I were, in fact, the first blues players to overblow--Mike Turk plainly has us beat, and several players much further back than that have been mentioned. I've never heard Will Scarlett's playing, so you may be sure I'll check it out. I'm simply saying that, as far as I'm aware, we were the first two players to use a LOT of overblows in an amplified blues context as an integral part of our melodic/harmonic conception.
This may just be my ignorance talking, or not. As I say, I had a chance to see live shows by pretty much a who's who of touring blues harp pros between the mid-1980s and the mid-1990s. I never heard an overblow. (Sugar Blue and Billy Branch didn't use them.) It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear that there were guys showing this stuff off at SPAH before 1990, though, and if that's true, I want to know about it. After all, somebody showed William Galison the technique before 1987. I'd like to hear his story, while we're at it.
So that's the challenge I'll offer to Chris and the rest of you: point me/us towards recordings made prior to 1990 that feature overblows in an amplified blues context. (Jazz doesn't count!) Let's keep the conversation going, and make our histories as accurate as possible.
I WILL say that for many years I felt like a lone voice crying "overblow" in the blues wilderness. One of the nice things about surviving to the age of 51 is hearing all the overblow action--and catching up on the playing of guys like Chris and other mostly-jazz players who had no resistance whatever to the Mighty Overblow. The straight-ahead blues players DID have huge resistance during the 1990s. I think that's slowly fading with a new generation incoming.
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2009 10:12 AM
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Buddha
793 posts
Jul 06, 2009
10:01 AM
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before that album I was very much into country and bluegrass playing. I couldn't get into blues until I heard that album. In many ways Beans Taste Fine was the most influential album on my playing as it was a bridge for me into Blues, Jazz, Folk and Gypsy music.
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kudzurunner
560 posts
Jul 06, 2009
10:50 AM
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Here's the URL for Will Scarlett's website. I've just emailed him to ask for specifics about his overblow use:
http://www.willscarlettharmonica.com/Will_Scarlett_Harmonica/Welcome.html
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MrVerylongusername
395 posts
Jul 06, 2009
11:06 AM
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Some of the harp-l archive posts I've been reading today have stated that Paul Oscher claims to have used overblows on one of Muddy's recordings in '68. I couldn't find a reference to any track names though. Anyone got the info to prove the claim?
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ChrisA
37 posts
Jul 06, 2009
11:48 AM
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Since I started this thread I thought I might as well keep going lol
found this message from the harp-l archive MrVerylongusername is referring to:
-Original Message-----
From: harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Winslow Yerxa
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 3:48 PM
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [Harp-L] Will Scatlett and Overblows
Will Scarlett was using overblows consistently and in a controlled way as
early as 1968, when he waxed a couple of albums with Hot Tuna using only a
G-harp fgor all tunes. When I met him in 1974, he was using the technique,
called it "overblowing," and taught me how to do it.
Will is a careful, shadowing-around-the-edges kind of player, who never
sought nor received the kind of attention later given to Howard Levy. But he
conducted the first investigations into how it works inside the harmonica,
and even invented the responder reed idea on which the XB-40 harmonica is
based.
By the Way, Paul Oscher claims to be the first player to use an overblow on
a blues record, again in 1968, on a Muddy Waters record. (The same year,
Toots Thielemans used a few overblows on an easy listening album.)
Al Wislon - I have no idea. The "special" note he got on "on the Road Again"
(a semitone above Draw 6 on a A-harp) has been thoroughly investigated by
Pat Missin and others and determined to be a special tuning, with the Draw
6 reed raised one semitone .
Winslow
Winslow Yerxa
Author, Harmonica For Dummies ISBN 978-0-470-3
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ZackPomerleau
340 posts
Jul 06, 2009
11:59 AM
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Adam, Will played electric A LOT during the seventies. I will try to find an example with overblows. On Hot Tuna's first album, he only uses a G harp.
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oldwailer
813 posts
Jul 06, 2009
12:09 PM
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Crap! I still can't OB with any control at all.
What a cool find this "Beans Taste Fine" is! Thanks for the tip, Chris. Not just the harp--which is wonderful--the 12-string playing is also GREAT! The vocals are really cool too!
I am still sometimes amazed at the depth of knowledge we have available to us here on this forum--there is always something new to learn.
It was very surprising to me to hear that one of Chris' biggest influences was this album--I would have expected it to be more a jazz-rooted influence.
Wow! Everybody just has to go get this album! It's and order. I'm not even through listening to it for the first time yet--and it's just blowing my mind. . . ;-)
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oldwailer
814 posts
Jul 06, 2009
12:26 PM
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Earlier in this thread there was a mention of an "OverDraw." I had forgotten about that--could somebody remind me of what that is? Does it bend the note up or down?
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Preston
454 posts
Jul 06, 2009
12:57 PM
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Up.
I.E. 7 draw on c harp is a B note, and the OD bends up to Db.
The monkey paw didn't beat that into you?
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2009 12:58 PM
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kudzurunner
561 posts
Jul 06, 2009
1:09 PM
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One of the nice byproducts of having my mind blown by so much good harp playing thrown at me over the past two years is that I've actually begun to work overdraws into my playing. It's still at a tender stage; I'm not bragging! But on a good day, in the near future, you'll probably hear me playing a 7 overdraw, which is the flat 5th in cross harp (very useful in the upper octave blues scale) and the major 7th in third position (extremely useful on the 5 chord--as useful as the 5 overblow is on the 5 chord when playing cross harp).
I basically just suck hard on the 7 draw, adjusting my mouth-shape until it kicks in.
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2009 1:10 PM
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oldwailer
815 posts
Jul 06, 2009
1:38 PM
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Thanks, Preston--The monkey's paw didn't have time to beat everything into me! I'll get a couple more beatings at SPAH, I hope. . .
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kudzurunner
562 posts
Jul 06, 2009
1:53 PM
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Just got a short, friendly, and detailed email from Will Scarlett, which includes his phone number. Very friendly! I'll call him before I post any of the info he communicated, but here are two chestnuts:
1) He hit his first overblow in 1965.
2) He'll be at SPAH in Sacramento, hanging out with Joe Filisko and accessible to all.
More to come......
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KeithE
16 posts
Jul 07, 2009
9:46 AM
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Buddha - thanks for the Beans Taste Fine recommendation. I purchased it last night. Are there any other recommended Mike Turk recordings that feature primarily diatonic harmonica?
I was searching last night and came across a great post that you made to the Harp-L where you talk about your dad bringing home this album and other influences:
Buddha's post on Harp-L
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kudzurunner
566 posts
Jul 07, 2009
10:41 AM
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Buddha:
Here's what Mike Turk's website says about "Beans Taste Fine":
"CD re-release of "Beans Taste Fine" with John Kolstad and "wild-man" Mike Turk. Includes previously unissued tracks, with beautifully designed new brochure and graphics. Originally recorded in 1975. Please contact Mill City Music regarding this release - WAM1114."
Turk says recorded in 1975; you say recorded in 1966-67 but released later. Any idea what's up with the recording dates? I'm guessing either that Kolstad told you the earlier date or that Turk meant to say "released" rather than "recorded." God is in the details.
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2009 3:40 PM
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Buddha
796 posts
Jul 07, 2009
11:17 AM
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Adam,
Papa John is a Minneapolis resident. I used to play with him on a regular basis when I lived there, what I said is what Papa John told me. What a blessing it was for me to be so heavily influenced by an album that could have only been found locally in Minneapolis and then to be able to play the role of Mike Turk with Papa John, that's a dream come true.
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kudzurunner
568 posts
Jul 07, 2009
3:37 PM
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Folks, I've just had a long and very informative email from Mike Turk, which I'm pasting below. Richard Hunter's stock--which has always been blue-chip--has just risen.
"Dear Adam,
Thanks for thinking of me and keeping me in your circle of discussions.
Firstly, to clear up the "Beans Taste Fine" point. This album was first released in early 1975 which means that the original recording session was spring/summer 1974. This could not have occurred any earlier because I didn't begin to even toot on the harp until the winter of 1966 when I first managed to clip one from my Dad's music store in Tallman, NY.
I had just heard the Butterfield Blues Band Elektra recording for the first time. Sonny Terry, Junior Wells, Charlie Musslewhite, Jimmy Reed and even John Mayall followed soon after that. I was even enthralled by the harp solos of the Yardbirds, The Kinks and even Paul Revere and the Raiders' "B" sides at the time. The clincher for me was watching the rhythm guitarist of the Youngbloods at the Cafe Au Go Go in the Village in 1967. He doubled on harp and took somekind of harp solo ( my standards weren't established yet) ,however, in the climax of his solo he dropped his double neck Guild solid body on his foot and didn't flinch........what music!?!
I was hooked and then got a copy of Tony Glovers "Blues Harp" book. Honestly, that's how I learned to play!
All that said, the overblow notes came way after.
In the fall of 1973, I shared a house with singer/songwriter Richard Johnson and The brothers Hunter; Richard and Mark. Richard Hunter was working on his music degree at Harvard...on piano. However, he had a pretty progressive blues/rock band. I was trying to get something happening on the Alto sax. So, we would share the basement for practice and toss around harmonica facts. Richard Hunter was the first person to actually explain what an overblow note was and how to do it. He knew about Will Scarlett and somebody else (perhaps Howard, not sure).
We talked about a solo of Toots Thielemans from his record with Svend Asmussen. One cut, I think it's "Mr Nashville or"Spirit Feel". Toots gets very excited playing a solo on a G tuned blues harp in D and blurps out a minor 3rd on the 6 blow. It baffled me for months. Years later, I asked him about it,he modestly replied..."it just came out in the heat of the moment". This recording was made in November 22-23, 1972.
Will Scarlett was definitely playing this way in the 1960's, he had a "weird sound" back then and nobody really knew what he was doing on the thing. I think it was Peter Ivers who said he built his own harps and that he came and went like a ghost....one minute on the stage the next, gone!
I had heard Howard Levy's name back around 1975 but, it was truly Richard Hunter who really introduced me to Howard's sound. I'm sure Howard created this technique for himself being the consummate genius that he is. I never really followed Howard's origins on the harp though! However, it was Richard who explained to me that the blow notes do it and the really high draw notes as well. I don't believe all this is "pre- Howard". I'm sure someone like Carlos or even Howard himself could set this fact straight. Levy most probably talks about his very first overblow, doesn't he?
So, armed with that, I came up with a couple of licks that seemed to work. I had also figured out that the Koch/Hohner 10 hole chromatic would give me the same results using the lever but, it never really had the sound of the Marine Band or the 12 hole chromonica for that matter. I recorded a Bob Will's tune " Roly Poly" in 1976 on 45rpm. I tried to get some good use for the overblows on that tune but, mostly it's a cross harp solo.
I honestly have to say that I never really got very far with overblow technique and wasn't willing to put in the practice time to get it. Perhaps, if I was ever able to get the minor 3rd overblow on the 1 hole it could have changed everything for me. I'm satisfied with what the chromatic has offered me as far as being involved in jazz music. It suits the jazz horn phrasing much better for me....but that's a whole nuther' school!
Once again, Richard Hunter would also be a very good source of information. Please let me know if there is anything else I could provide for you.
Mike Turk
www.miketurk.com
www.tinsandwichmusic.com
www.bostonblowup.com
MySpace.com - Mike Turk Jazz Harmonica - Boston, Massachusetts - Jazz - Bossa Nova - Blues - www.myspace.com-miketurkharmonicajazz
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Buddha
798 posts
Jul 07, 2009
7:49 PM
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I'll call Papa John tomorrow. I distinctly recall him telling me they did all of that playing around 67-68 after they met at Berkely, I also recall it because it put the thought into my head that Howard says he played his first OB around 1969-70 and that would make turk's ob pre-levy influence.
Regardless of the dates what stands is, the album is fantastic and remains as one of the best harp albums ever.
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kudzurunner
619 posts
Aug 01, 2009
9:05 AM
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I spoke with William Galison on the phone a couple of weeks ago and asked him where he'd learned how to overblow. He said that Howard Levy had showed him. So I guess I'm in the direct chain of transmission from the master.
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Buddha
894 posts
Aug 01, 2009
9:42 AM
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I may be one of the few that played an OB before I heard of Levy.
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