kudzurunner
574 posts
Jul 12, 2009
7:34 PM
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I've had a metronome kicking around for more than 20 years, ever since the conductor of "Big River" said everybody in the pit band needed to 'shed with one. (He used the word "'shed.")
Lately I've pulled it off the shelf and have been fascinated by the project of using it to increase my speed on 16th notes. I've spoken before about how this is a residual weakness of mine. I just never bothered to work on them. I was able to play a thousand blues gigs without working on them. The only time in my professional career that I actually DID have to hit a lot of fast 16th notes was in the Entreacte of "Big River," when the guitar player, fiddle player, and I went out front.
In any case, I seem to be able to do certain repeated patterns fairly comfortable at a setting of 116. 120 becomes a kind of high-end edge. And this evening I turned it up to 132, which is, somebody tells me, where Jason R. is working in "Mellow Down Easy," the version that I posted to YouTube. I was able to do some riffs at that tempo, but I still can't imagine soloing the way that JR does at that tempo. Or rather, I CAN imagine doing that, or beginning to do that, but only after another year or two of daily practice.
This is a long-term project. I've always rejected the idea of playing machine-gun style: 16th notes, evenly spaced, and nothing but 16th notes. Still, I've also found that repetitive speed exercises like this are great for the reflexes and often allow me, when I'm actually improvising on gigs, to spit out stuff that I'd never have tried otherwise. But there's a risk in simply allowing scales and patterns to overcome one's improvisational ability.
I thought about what Buddha said about the importance of playing repeated notes on one particular note: i.e., 9 blow repeated as 16th notes at tempo.
I tried hitting all the obvious cross harp notes this way: machine-gun repetitions of the same note, ad infinitum. Not easy for me as the tempo increses.
Has anybody tried working with a metronome this way? What sort of exercises have you tried?
My experience is that the faster the tempo, the more I'm forced to fall back on patterns. But also--and intriguingly--the more I end up giving up on steady 16th notes and actually making MUSIC at that tempo, by leaving angular spaces, holding individual notes longer, etc.
And this is one of the tricks to working with high speeds: figure out ways of covering up your technical limitations by increasing note durations while still maintaining grooved reflexes.
And please note: I'm coming to this machine-gun practice after 33 years of making music in an entirely different way, without ever trying to groove even-duration notes to a fast tempo. So I've got a lot of musicality to fall back on; I'm not worried about become a machine. I'm simply practicing like a machine, somewhat. I do NOT advise people who've been playing only a couple of years to focus their practice time in this direction.
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Bb
71 posts
Jul 12, 2009
7:50 PM
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It's an amazing clip (both the one you posted of Jason and soloing 16th notes at 132 clicks). What KILLS though, is that he actually colors notes at that speed.
It's supra-natural. It's musical. Sh*t!
You know if you rang Jason, he'd tell you if he found value in the metronome to get him there. It sounds as if you're already using it to achieve more speed. Guitar players do it all the time and it seems to be a method that has value.
-Bob
-Bob
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Oisin
280 posts
Jul 12, 2009
8:46 PM
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What are 16th notes??
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Tryharp
245 posts
Jul 12, 2009
10:00 PM
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Oisin,
I think I'm right in saying that Adam is playing 16 notes to one beat.
So 16ths at
116 would be 31 notes per second
120 would be 32 notes per second
135 would be 35 notes per second
To me, mind boggling!!!
Good luck Adam!
Tryharp
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GermanHarpist
482 posts
Jul 13, 2009
1:18 AM
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Not quite, 16th are 4 notes per beat... Doesnt really make sense, but here we go.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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Kingley
219 posts
Jul 13, 2009
1:35 AM
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Just to clarify it.
As GH states it is 4 note per beat which is 16 notes to the bar. Hence the name "16ths".
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The Gloth
145 posts
Jul 13, 2009
1:56 AM
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Yes, I think it has nothing to do with "seconds", as 4 notes per second seems not very fast to me. 4 notes per beat is more logical, then you try to raise the speed...
I never played with a metronome, but I like a lot jamming on fast tracks, or even playing by myself with fastest riffs I can do.
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2009 2:00 AM
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Andrew
427 posts
Jul 13, 2009
2:03 AM
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16 to the bar.
From 30-year-old memory, the "standard note" (like the kilogram or the metre) is the semibreve, which is 4 crotchets; then that's broken down: time signatures will be 4/4 or 3/4 (four or three quarter-semibreves or crotchets to the bar), 3/8, 6/8 (3 or 6 eighth-semibreves or quavers to the bar, 6/8 is the time-sig of the classic tarantella) or something like 9/16 (9 semiquavers/16th notes to the bar - this is just a waltz with triplets on each of the 3 beats). I don't think you'll ever see a time signature in 32nds, but modern classical composers like to play about like that, so who knows.
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2009 2:35 AM
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Tryharp
247 posts
Jul 13, 2009
2:27 AM
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Ahhh.... sixteen to the bar, thought that sounded a bit quick! So about 8 notes a second.
Tryharp
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tookatooka
287 posts
Jul 13, 2009
3:03 AM
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If you go to my post "Keeping Good Time" you'll find a link to a free downloadable metronome, if you want one.
It's basic but all you need really.
When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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djm3801
175 posts
Jul 13, 2009
3:08 AM
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Someone posted how fast Popper plays and indeed he does. But an artist like Sugar Blue and, as someone noted, Jason, not only plays the note but manages to color each note. That is impressive. Before I found this site I was using - and still use - Harmonica Academy - a very decent instructional web site. and Tony Ayers teaches a lot of Irish Fiddle tune - up to 120 speed - and speed exercises along with blues. Very hard stuff.
Dan M.
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GermanHarpist
483 posts
Jul 13, 2009
3:19 AM
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Gloth: "I think it has nothing to do with "seconds"".
Well it has to do with seconds in that a metronome counts the beats per minute. So a speed of 60 means one beat per second.
Thus the speed of 132 equals a bit less than 9 notes (16th) per second.
I only used the metronome to practice my vibrato. And less because of speed, but for regularity.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2009 4:43 AM
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Andrew
428 posts
Jul 13, 2009
4:12 AM
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Something actors and actresses do for enunciation practice is to count from one to ten once per second. You might like to try it. I can nearly do it, but I'm a little bit slow.
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2009 4:13 AM
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kudzurunner
575 posts
Jul 13, 2009
4:54 AM
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Yes, 16th notes are four notes per beat:
ONE-2-3-4, TWO-2-3-4, THREE-2-3-4, FOUR-2-3-4.
Ideally, you not only play all of them clearly and smoothly, with no hitches, but you're able to change the stresses.
Beboppers stunned their non-bebopping peers by the tempo at which they were able to execute.
To get started, try playing the major scale on a C harp in first position, 4 blow up to 7 blow and back down. Then do the major scale in G, starting from the 6 blow (cross harp) up to 9 blow, with the 9 blow bend as the penultimate note. Sugar Blue uses that scale, among others. In order to make these simple scales into repeatable exercises, you often need to add an extra note at each end--such as the 10 draw in the 6-9 blow scale. Or leave a 16th note rest. Or repeat a note in rapid succession.
Or do repeated riffs: 5d-4d-5b-4b, and repeat
The Billy Gibson riff: 5b-5d-4d-5b 5d-4d-5b-5d 4d-5b-5d-4d...........and make sure you stress the first note of each 4-note cluster. It's a three note pattern played as 16th notes, which means you're constantly cycling through the pattern so that each of the three notes in the pattern takes the lead.
ONE-2-3-1 TWO-3-1-2 THREE-1-2-3.... and repeat
There are an infinite number of patterns like this.
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2009 4:56 AM
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Kingley
221 posts
Jul 13, 2009
5:47 AM
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The Steve Baker Harp Handbook has lots of really useful exercises in it for playing fast.
It also has tuning guides, positional playing, scales in the first 5 positions, a discography of great players and so much more.
It's highly recommended for any harp player as a reference guide for so many things.
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2009 5:49 AM
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Buddha
814 posts
Jul 13, 2009
6:14 AM
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playing fast is more about breathing than anything else. You must be able to play slowly before you can accurately play it at lightening speed.
I don't like to use a metronome and prefer a drum machine instead.
A metronome is useful but I like to set it at one or two beats per measure rather than 16 beats per measure. Practice playing your 16th notes with the metronome at ONE beat per measure and see how your time is, you will end up with better results if you can land on the beat that way rather than playing along with with every little click click click... that shit will make you crazy.
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GermanHarpist
485 posts
Jul 13, 2009
6:20 AM
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"... that shit will make you crazy." word.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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Andrew
429 posts
Jul 13, 2009
7:20 AM
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Metronomes should be used very sparingly. Any piano teacher who makes a kid play to a metronome more than once to show the kid how their tempo is varying without them realizing it is a shit piano teacher. Ultimately a musician has to listen to himself. Too much metronome and you're just listening to the metronome. Most only use the metronome to give an indication of speed, then they turn it off again and play. Orchestral conductors simply use their watch and a mixture of counting to the watch and feel.
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GermanHarpist
489 posts
Jul 13, 2009
10:39 AM
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" Any piano teacher who makes a kid play to a metronome more than once [...] is a shit piano teacher. "
My piano teacher was crap with the stank of cold cigarette smoke... and yes, he used the metronome way too often.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2009 10:40 AM
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kudzurunner
576 posts
Jul 13, 2009
3:21 PM
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Maybe I should clarify: I'm setting the metronome at 116, or 120, or occasionally faster, and playing four notes to a beat. Four 16th notes to a beat.
What I like about it is that it's purely objective. In that respect, it's a little like a runner who spends 99% of his time on the roads--me--heading onto a track. A 90 second 400, or an 80 second 400 (5:20 pace, which is very fast for me, although not a flat out sprint), is an objective measure. The track doesn't lie.
Similarly, the metronome can help me be honest with myself, especially if I tape my practice sessions, or parts of them, as I've been doing.
I've spent 33 years listening to myself--and to drummers who can't read my ahead-of-the-beat swing and therefore speed up. I'm not worried about overusing a metronome. It's a refreshing change, actually.
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mickil
366 posts
Jul 13, 2009
4:09 PM
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First thing I'm gonna say is that 16th notes are four to the beat, a crotchet beat, that is:
semibreve = 1
minim - 2
crotchet = 4 (hence 4/4 or straight time)
quaver = 8
semiquaver = 16 (4 to a crotchet or 16 to a semibreve)
As to metronomes. I think that they are extremely useful insofar as they force you to be brutally honest with yourself about two things:
1) Your ability to keep a beat, regardless of the tempo. The slower you play, the harder that can be. The slower the beat, the more I try to break it down into smaller beats, e.g. a slow blues counted as 4 bars of 3 per bar, like a waltz; then you've speeded the tempo up X 4 in your head and made it easier to count.
2) Your facility in playing at speed. Most of us have thought that we can do this or that riff just like that guy on our favourite recording. But when we spin the deck and we try to keep up, our technique crumbles.
So, yes, I think they're good as an objective way to build speed without any of the delusions that are often present without the crack, or tick, of their whip.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
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sopwithcamels266
174 posts
Jul 17, 2009
5:49 AM
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Kudzurunner =quote My experience is that the faster the tempo, the more I'm forced to fall back on patterns
That makes me smile. I have never been a fan of metronomes. Having said that if i'm helping a Sax student develop on the Coltrane or Brecker style techniques, sub harmony cycle and development on pattern embelishment of 2 v7 1s then I encourage them to use a metronome.If you want to play Countdown or Giant steps at speed work out on chord extension as well Coltrane harmony, a metronome is mandatory.
The metronome is a means to an end to me it's like using that word "practice". The word should be banned from any players way of thinking.
When using a metronome it can invoke that word.
I don't like that way of developing a player but you go with what they want and what they are into right.
Andrew: You mention Actors and actresses.
Let me tell you Iv'e lived with a few actresses.
In my experience their creative element is limited hence
(acting is a very limited form of self expression), simply by definition.What i'm saying is pay little attention if you are a creative muso of anything an Actor does.
The most important thing I think is you have to have the rhythm in your head.
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2009 5:51 AM
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