I'm sorry but I'm making another thread about amps.
I have a friend who uses a Fender Princeton silverface Reverb amp. Think it's 1x10", 12-15w, all-tube, from the 70s. I think this sounds really cool. Anyway, research shows that the reissue is like $900 while the originals go for like $1100. Right away I can tell that's double the price I'm looking to spend on an amp (right now).
So, I do a little searching, found a cool link with some info: Harp On! and decide to look at the Fender Pro Junior Combo Amp for $400 which is looking like the right price and right specs but I find on an earlier thread: Old Thread that this probably isn't what I'm looking for either.
Another one I'm considering is the Epiphone Valve Junior but I'm really wondering about its stage potential and ability to hear oneself on stage with it.
What do you guys think? For something like the Fender Princeton silverface Reverb amp at half the cost (say $500 max)? Unfortunately I'm struggling to find music shops in south eastern PA that have anything that look remotely like a harp amp to test some out.
---------- ~Ryan Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
The Fender Pro Jr is a great little harp amp. Just swap out the V1 12AX7 for a 12AY7 and your in business.
I think lots of people get confused between the Blues Jr and the Pro Jr. The Blues Jr has 1X12 speaker, Bass, Middle, Treble, Master volume, Gain and is a lousy harp amp.
The Pro Jr has 1X10 speaker, volume and tone and is a little monster amp. BBQ Bob and Billy Gibson both use them a lot.
Before I found this (MBS) resource of information I experimented around with amps (and am still in the process to some extent). Do yourself a favor. Save your money and get a dedicated harp amp.
I started with a Roland Cube 60. Nice amp but wholly unsuited for harmonica unless you never play the blues and only play in church, and even then it's a compromise. I sold it to my fried who talked me into getting it in the first place.
I now have two amps- the first one is going to be sold some day (soon, I hope) It is a Genz Benz Black Pearl 30 1-12. It's built like a tank (13ply solid birch ply), and has an all-tube path. Great sound and plenty of volume for clubbing, but I had to put a lower gain preamp tube in stage 1 to cut the feedback and allow me to push it for crunch. Also, while it is loud, it is also directional, so in larger venues I end up either running it into the board through the preamp out or mic'ing it. No big deal? Not until you factor in that I could do the same thing with a smaller, lighter amp instead of moving that 53 pound monster around.
So if you end up mic'ing it anyway, just get a smaller, lighter amp that is made for harp, so it sounds better and its easier to lug around.
My second amp is a later model Epiphone Tube10 1x8 that I picked up on eBay for $92 shipped. Sounds good, enough volume to play small clubs when the rest of the band can maintain appropriate volume levels. It also has line out to go to the PA while maintaining speaker activity. Nice as well in that if it gets heisted I don't lose all that much.
The other benefit of a smaller amp is that it doesn't take up much room on stage. If you end up mic'ing it or running it into the board, you can use it as a personal stage monitor and let the sound guy worry about the rest
As soon as I gain some capitol, I will sell or trade the Genz Benz. I will be 58 in a few months, and that big amp is just too much for this old back. Sort of defeats the purpose of playing such a small, light instrument. ;-).
I do have an amp or two in mind, but the bottom line is, don't worry about the total wattage or power. Be sure it has a line out and carry an extra cord, or Hi-Z to Lo-Z matching transformer and mic cable.
Picking up an amp is frustrating, lol. Looks like a harpgear or something is an easy win but the $700+ tags are out of my range. You'd think there'd be plenty fenders & gibsons that would work great under $500.
---------- ~Ryan Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Kingly, thanks for the list of amps. Would most of them require mods like switching 12AX7 for 12AY7? Or are certain ones fine as is? What does a 12AY7 cost & how difficult is it to switch them? Do any of those choices make less sense when used with a green bullet? I appreciate your advice, thank you.
---------- ~Ryan Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
They will all work great with a Green Bullet. Most will want the 12AX7 changing for a 12AY7 just to make it a bit more harp friendly. Changing the preamp tube (12AX7) is simple. You just pull it out and push the new one in. They cost around $15-$20.
The best amp of those I listed is the Kalamazoo. They are really great little amps. That shouldn't need the preamp tube changing either.
Greg Heumann usually has some for sale for a good price. He can also fit a line out to them I believe so you could run it into the PA for more volume if needed.
Give Greg a shout and ask him about them. http://www.blowsmeaway.com/
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2009 7:12 AM
In case the kalamazoo doesnt work out would the next best amp be the fender pro jr or one of the others? I see that its the only one thats 10" & 15w whereas the others are smaller & 5w. Would it transfer to stage use (as in being able to hear oneself) easier then the others mentioned? Though, I do notice its the only one purchasable at musiciansfriend that would be over $250 as well. Thanks for the advice!
---------- ~Ryan Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Ryan, I would say that the Fender Pro Jr would be the next best one after the Kalmazoo yes. But you will have to swap out the first preamp tube for a 12AY7
Here's a Pro Jr with a 12AU7 in the first preamp tube position.
I have a silverface Princeton and its such a great amp. It goes with me to every gig. The tone I get out of it at times is unbelievable. If you can get your hands on one I highly reccomend it!
I work at West End Music in Allentown, PA. Currently we have two used Fender amps that might interest you. A Blues Junior in great condition(375.00) and a Blues Deluxe which plays great and is overall in good condition (399.99).
Allentown is like 45 minutes from most of Philly.
shoot me an e-mail if you want more info: andrewjsilverberg@gmail.com
Looks like a 12AY7 has a gain of 45 and 12AU7 has a gain of 19. I don't know what that really means but maybe you could tell me why you suggest 12AY7 and he's using 12AU7?
---------- ~Ryan Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
A 12AU7 is the lowest gain preamp tube and as such will give tyou more headroom before feedback. A 12AY7 is a little higher so will give you slightly less.
What this means to harp players is that a 12AU7 will allow you to turn up the amp to a higher volume than the 12AY7. However the 12AU7 will not make your amp sound as lively as a 12AY7. So you will lose a lot of "bite" in the amp.
A Fender Pro Jr with a 12AU7 in could be played around 7-8 on the volume. But with a 12AY7 in it could be played around 5-6 on the volume. With the 12AY7 it will have a more ripped, overdriven sound than with the 12AU7 and sound far more "lively".
There is no real difference to the volume from the amp between 5-8. The difference is all in the amount of overdrive and responsiveness of the amp.
Of course another option would be to buy a HarpGear Rock Bottom which is another great little amp, has a line out as well for the PA. I think they are around $500.
Ryan I'm a Epi Valve Jr fan and have used them on stage. The problem I have with line outs is it does not give you the sound you get from speaker dynamics. adam can tell you the mic he uses for micing cabs, it's a shure I forget the model. While most will tell you that 12" speakers aren't as good for harp I will say that the Eminence Lady Luck they put in the V Jr cabs are great harp speakers, guitarists find them "farty" but it's not unusual to find bad for guitar good for harp.
I'm in Baltimore and if you feel like taking an hour-1/2 drive sometime you are welcoime to taste test some of my amps I have a Vjr Head & Cab a Bogen Challenger I also use with a VJr cab, an Epi Valve special and the big box Bassman re issue LTD All have had Harp modifications and I'm fairly sure I can help you decide on how you want to proceed with your electric sound.
Wow, thanks for the offer dude I might take you up on that if I find the time :) .
So what do you guys think, am I going to get 3x the value more out of the rock bottom? Sounds like it's possible to play clean through there whereas not with the epi? Or would the epi be just as good since it's my first amp and I'm not playing in public at the moment? Or am I soon to grow out of the Epi and wish I gotten the rock bottom?
---------- ~Ryan Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
You can use different mics and get a fairly clean sound from the Epi. If I use a Bullet with a CM White Label element I get low crunchy Bluesness. If I use my American D4 with the transformer I get clean and brash. Also I play thru vocal mic on stage if I want super country clean. I know someone who has a small HG and it sounds a bit muddy when cranked real hard BUT that could just be a combination of his settings and mics. Everything is relative you can't look at just the amp or just the mic or just the harp you use.
I tested Pro Junior and Valve Jr few months back - Valve Jr was a clear winner when it comes to sound. However, at that time I didn't understand the low vs. High impedances and the need for the converter - and neither did the sales guy in the shop. So I tested those with the store's SM57 + fake cable. Amazing thing is that actually the Valve JR sounded still great..? I wonder how they would've sounded with correct impedances (I'm pretty sure I'd liked the Valve Jr more).
Now that I have dedicated harp amp (Marble Max) I'd say that go for the RockBottom if you can afford it. I'm sure you can get fair prize if you have to sell it in the future so it really isn't much more expensive than the Valve Jr.
Hey Ryan I've been meaning to ask you. can you send me some info on H.A.R.P. in Philly. Been meaning to try to get together with you guys (originally a Chester County Dude myself) you can email me at Bluzdude46@aol.com
Aps, With about $30 worth of cap, resistors and tube upgrade I can make a Epi VJR sound as good as any small amp out there. took 2 of mine to my HOOPF meeting and let the boys try them out. All are big amp guys and all had to admit that these amps with a little bit of modifications sound as good as any harp amp out there.
I use a valve junior. The outdoor Blues cruise we did in july was good with a dual 12 inch cab and two jensen jch12/70's. I now have them spit into two milk crates. They sound awesome both ways. with the dual twelv arranged vertically, the sound guy mic'd the bottom one. He told me he almost never had to bump my fader He said it cut with minimal pa added. Only a couple of solos where he decided to goose it because the rest of the band was more wound up. I am going to try new tubes today, but I am a valve junior happy camper already.
congaron, Don't bother experimenting with 12at7, 12AY7 or 12AU7, they just cut the gain out, already tried all that and it just washes the amp out. You are better off just getting a better quality NOS or High quality 12AX7. There are other mods that aren't to difficult at Lone Wolf website including a treble cut that helps with any feedback problems and a few cap and resistor swaps
I found this info on Harpmicgaskets which shows percentage gain for pre-amp tubes. Hope this helps.Thanks to Dave Kott for this.
Preamp tubes - improve the sound of any tube guitar amp in an instant!
Preamp tubes are rated in percentage of output. The higher the percentage, the hotter the tube. If you can't turn your amp up past 2 before it begins to feed back, then it's time for a tube change. They're not that expensive, so you might as well get an assortment. They're self-biasing and any tube can go in any preamp socket. The order will definitely make a difference in the amps tone, so experiment. Look for American-made tubes like Tung-Sol, RCA, Sylvania, and GE. Avoid the Russian tubes if possible.
It looks like the 5751 GE and my original sovtek el84 gives me the best chicago tone with minimal feedback, even here in the living room. I can finally get the dirt in there instead of just grit. I can still get the grit by backing the mic out a little from the harp. Before, I got just grit without that real dirty tone, even right up on the harp with tight seal. It's a weird combo of tubes, unexpected, but the best of the assortment we tried. All of the others were american or British made and one was a NOS GE 12ax7. I also tried a vintage jensen 12 inch complete with rusty basket. It is a weber reconing and sounds no different than my jensen jch 12/70's...so I'm sticking with them..same milk crate used for both...okay, the milk crate is closed on the sides/top and open in the back (by me and a super secret technique), but it's still a milk crate.
As for dramatic improvement, the 5751 is the only one I would say fit that description. I had been using a fender chinese 12ax7. None of the el84's made a noticeable difference compared with the sovtek. The sovtek also has the head and shoulders SPL advantage over all the others we tried.
All the 12 a, etceteras....gave me plenty of trumpet and sax tones, some grit..only the 5751 gave me real chicago dirt. None of the el84s seemed to make any difference at all that way. The 12 at7 gave me higher amp volume settings before feedback, but still no dirt.
All in all, The guitar player in my band brought me a box load of tubes to try and he admitted there was very little difference. I think he was surprised. The only tone I wanted that I was missing was the smoothe dirty distortion the 5751 now gives me. I still have all the other tones I had before. I'm just going to stick those tubes in that way and play. You could probably swap them in my sleep and i won't even care anyway....lol. The valve junior rocks. There are no bad sounds.
i put a better quality EL84 in the VJr I was ordering tubes anyway I keep the chinese tubes for back up in case of emergency. But I back up EVERYTHING and you're right the preamp tube makes very big difference in warmth for Harp amp
