jonsparrow
736 posts
Aug 06, 2009
8:56 AM
|
when listing to a song, how do you tell the difference between them? clearly it starts on the 1, but does it allways go to the 4 an 5 afterwards? or can it switch it up? if so how do you tell which is which? cause iv seen examples where the song would be I-IV-V-IV-I-IV-V-I etc... or something like that. but is there an official way to tell the difference other then listening to the first 3 chords? like if you start a song in the middle can you be like oh thats the IV chord.
|
Greg Heumann
116 posts
Aug 06, 2009
9:29 AM
|
There are no rules. The lowest common denominator 12 bar blues goes like this:
I---I---I---I---
IV--IV--I---I---
V---IV--I---I---
But there are indeed variations. The most common is the "quick IV" where the second chord of the first line above is a IV. Happens frequently with slow blues. There are lots of others but they are equally rare. So you DO have to listen. Or ask, or both. Sometimes you need to lay out for the first 24-36 bars or even more just to figure out the chord progression.
----------
/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
|
jaymcc28
106 posts
Aug 06, 2009
9:42 AM
|
@jon: don't forget that there are also 8-bar blues like Key To The Highway that goes:
I---V---IV---IV---
I---V---I---I---
... then there's SBWI's "Good Morning Little School Girl" that is 9 1/2 bars:
I---I---IV---IV--(last is a half bar)
I---I---V---IV---
I---V---
So, like Greg said, you need to listen, count and ask. I know that, like a lot of others on this site, I've spent a lot of time (and still do)just listening and counting to get a feel for the tune.
|
scstrickland
154 posts
Aug 06, 2009
10:20 AM
|
Speaking of counting, I have noticed on more than one occasion, the singing starts on the fourth beat of the 12th bar rather than the 1st beat of the 1st bar. Is this common or am I counting wrong? I can't think of any examples of the top of my head, but if I come across one I will share it.
|
oldwailer
850 posts
Aug 06, 2009
10:20 AM
|
I think a good example of a "quick IV," sometimes called a "Quick Change" progression, that Greg layed out above, is the song "Dust My Broom," At least, that's how I play it, and I'm sticking to it.
To me, it would be more typical if the last I of Greg's "lowest common denominator" progression was changed to a V--then it would be a proper turn-around--but that is just how I usually would play it--doesn't mean it's right or wrong--just means that you do whatever sounds good to you.
Be careful with it if you do play a V at the end--the tension created by the V will suck you right back into the I of the first bar--creating an endless loop that can burn your lips off. When I used to give guitar lessons, it was common for second-lesson students to come in, fingers bleeding, begging for a way to end the 12-bar progression I gave on the first lesson.
I still get sucked into it--and it was about 45 years ago when a buddy of mine showed me the progression on guitar. Problem is, is there is no known ending for the progression that is not also a pretty good head for the progression. This probably why blues is not for pussies. . .
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2009 10:29 AM
|
jaymcc28
110 posts
Aug 06, 2009
10:33 AM
|
@Scstrickland: No, you're hearing it right. I think this is what Adam refers to as creating that swing feeling. A lot of tunes start with a lead-in from the 12th bar.
|
scstrickland
155 posts
Aug 06, 2009
10:39 AM
|
Thanks. That thew me four a counting loop for a long time.
|
XHarp
121 posts
Aug 06, 2009
1:52 PM
|
scstrickland, There are lots of ways to play the blues because its a groove and emotion not just a pattern.
Try playing background to a Lightnin' Hopkins tune and you'll have trouble finding the pattern but the tunes are truly blues. Try laying out a bit like Greg suggests above and feel the groove. You'll pick it up.
As for starting on the '..+ 4 +' or on the '..4 +' count, starting on an off beat is common for vocals, leads and rythyms. You'll hear a similar thing on Howling Wolf's Little Red Rooster. If you try to count that out starting at 1 as you hear it you'll be off by 1/2 a bar. The slide part that starts the tune actually starts on the '..+ 3' count and the tune starts 2 beats after that. You can only pick that up by catching the change to the 4th. Its during the slide so that's how far into it you have to listen to get the groove.
Keep at it man. You'll get it.
----------
"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
|
bluzlvr
229 posts
Aug 06, 2009
2:31 PM
|
There's always the classic Rollin' and Tumblin' changes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgsC1WlAzWE
|
nacoran
143 posts
Aug 06, 2009
3:31 PM
|
scstrickland- I do that to my poor guitar player all the time when I'm singing. I think my natural vocal cadence is syncopated. I squeeze all sorts of extra syllables in on odd beats. Our other guitar player, who started as a drum player, has to stop and think about what it is I'm doing and explain it for the first guy.
|
mickil
420 posts
Aug 06, 2009
3:35 PM
|
I'm not talking about I-IV-V, but any harmony.
And I'm not talking to the fellas who've been playing for years, cos they already know this.
When you listen to a song - any song - there are two ways that I know of that can help you work out the chords, but niether of them can be learnt overnight by any means.
1. Listen to the bass line; you can often, though not always, work out the root of the chord that's being played from that.
2. For any given harmony, try to hear the root, third and fifth, then you've most likely got the chord. If you can hear the root, and your ear has had the practice, you can figure out how that root relates to the tonic of the song: is it the 4th, 5th, 6th, whatever?
But, none of this is beginner stuff, and, yes, there are no rules to hearing it. It just takes time to hear harmonic progressions and the rules or conventions that are being used.
----------
'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2009 3:37 PM
|
Tweed
40 posts
Aug 06, 2009
5:39 PM
|
Listening to various artists play the 12 bar, I, IV, V routine had me puzzled for some time. Not only are there variations it the 8, 12 or what ever chord structure, you can also play the same notes over the first four bars as over the second four and third four. (The AAA Chorus Form)as well as other forms. Dave Barrett covers this in detail in his "Improvising Blues Harmonica" lesson. Most beginners start out (I did)with the ABC form which requires a chord change every change from I to IV to V ....BTW All of the above is good info. Playing good harmonica can get complicated real fast. Bottom line is "if it sounds good.....play it
|
jonsparrow
739 posts
Aug 06, 2009
6:48 PM
|
so what defines the I,IV or V chord? how do you tell one from the other? just the way it sounds or is there an actual theory behind it?
|
Hollistonharper
116 posts
Aug 06, 2009
7:16 PM
|
I'm sure someone else will answer this much better than I can, but here's my limited contribution--
I chord-- draw in on the harp
IV chord-- blow out
V chord-- play some other notes.
You can't really play them on a harmonica as chords. As an arpeggio, the holes on a harp would be--
I chord--2D 3D 4D 6B
IV chord--1B 2B 3B 4B
V chord--1D 2D bent 1/2 step 3D bent full step(I think) 4D
|
walterharp
14 posts
Aug 06, 2009
7:56 PM
|
Well in that set you get the 1 chord, the 3 chord (3 notes each at the bottome) but need a 1-4 block for the V, 2 note "chord"
|
Tweed
41 posts
Aug 06, 2009
8:48 PM
|
jonsparrow
Unless someone out there has a simple answer to what defines the various chords and the music theory on how chords are built from single notes, I would say that the answer can be best understood by buying and studying David Barrett's "Blues Harmonica Jam Tracks and Soloing Concepts #1" and maybe #2 and "Improvising Blues Harmonica" Another must have book is Jon Gindick's "Rock n' Blues Harmonica".
Tweed
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2009 10:11 PM
|
jonsparrow
741 posts
Aug 06, 2009
9:14 PM
|
thanks tweed. ill check those out. an thanks every one else for your info.
|
Greg Heumann
117 posts
Aug 06, 2009
10:46 PM
|
Jon - Let's say a song is in G. G is called the "root note". The I chord is a G chord. The IV is a C chord (C is the 4th note of the G scale, which is why its called the IV) and the V is a D chord. If we were in a different key, the names of the chords would be different but they'd still have the same relation (I, IV and V) to the "root" note, and if you pick up the right harp to be in second position, the right notes will be on the same holes.
Technically, the blues chords are not simple major chords. It is more accurate to name them I7, IV7 ad V7 or G7, C7 and D7 in this case, because the blues chord is defined as including the seventh note in the scale. A G chord is G+B+D, a G7 chord is G+B+D+F, which conveniently you'll find on holes 2-5 draw.
A teacher can really help you with this - it is helpful to listen together, or demonstrate at a piano. But you CAN learn to listen. Learn to play the root note of each chord while it is happening - I.e., GGGGCCGGDCGG - that's 2 draw for the G, 4 blow (or 1 blow) for the C and 1 draw / 4 draw for the D. It is a lot to think about at first but very good practice to help you hear. When you can do that, try playing the 3rd of each chord, then the 5th, etc.
----------
/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
|
mickil
421 posts
Aug 07, 2009
5:31 AM
|
Jon,
You can find music education software on this site:
http://www.freebyte.com/music_software/#free_notation
Also, it's got recording software plus about a zillion other things.
----------
'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
|
Bluzdude46
112 posts
Aug 07, 2009
5:48 AM
|
Adam!!?? They're having Math classes in here again!!!
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2009 5:49 AM
|
mickil
424 posts
Aug 07, 2009
7:57 AM
|
Bluzdude,
Pay attention in class! haha !
----------
'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
|
RyanMortos
250 posts
Aug 07, 2009
8:03 AM
|
Ah, the knowledge...
It fills me!
(getting it to stick more then a few hours is altogether another story, lol)
----------
~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
|
jonsparrow
745 posts
Aug 07, 2009
8:32 AM
|
ahhh thank you very much greg. that was the answer i was looking for!!!
|
