This is one of my favorite harmonica instrumentals, I have been studying this cut intensely. It sounds great when I play it too, but there is something missing without that sort of distant mellow sound. It just doesn't sound right with the equipment I have. I use an old Shure vocal mic, but even when I tried a Green Bullet it wasn't much of an improvement.
If anything, it's really just those big 3-6 blow octaves. They make the song, and they blend really well with whatever equipment he is using. Acoustically or with my regular stuff, they sound "harsher."
Does anyone know what kind of mic is required to get that tone or what Kim Wilson was playing on for that cut? I really dig it, it wouldn't replace my current mic, but it would be nice to have the option in the future to play with that kind of tone. ---------- Michael
Sorry my friend, but to get Kim Wilson's tone, you not only need his equipment, you need to be Kim Wilson. The latter is FAR more important than the first. Having the same gear as someone else is a great way to know how you're doing on your own tone development - but expecting to sound like them because you have it is, to say the least, a pipe dream. Kim sounds like Kim, regardless of what he plays through. He has fabulous tone because he has worked on it for what - 30 years?
I'm only looking to approximate the amplified tone for my own use...Similar equipment would do the job for the most part. I'm not trying to be exactly like Kim Wilson.
Edit: Okay I just found out there is an MBH lesson on youtube, that's convenient! And sure enough, a few minutes in Adam that he has some delay, and using some sort of crystal mic.
I'm not really sure what a crystal mic is though or where I get one..well time to google it up. ---------- Michael
Last Edited by on Aug 21, 2009 9:22 PM
If a Green Bullet into a tube amp doesn't give you a Chicago blues sound then no gear in the world will. It's your tone and technique that's the problem.
Don't ever think that gear will give you the sound you are looking for because it won't.
If you buy a delay pedal and a crystal mic to try and get that sound you will be wasting your money.
What you need to do is practice the acoustic techniques and work on your tone.
Kim Wilson and all other good players will sound the same no matter what gear they use.
Sorry if this sounds harsh. But it's simply the truth.
To prove this point. If you don't believe me then take your amp into the bathroom or an empty room and play in there. This will give you a delay type sound. I can guarantee that you still won't be happy with the sound.
The simple unavoidable truth is that you, me and everybody else (even Kim Wilson) need to constantly work on tone and technique. That's what gives you a great harp sound.
If you don't believe that then you are just fooling yourself.
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2009 12:13 AM
I agree with Kingley all the way. I also went in search of "The Chicago Sound" and I spent loads of money thinking that the gear is the way to go but it simply just gives you maybe 10 percent of "your sound".
I abandoned trying to sound like Kim Steve Guyger Dennis Gruenling etc ages ago and have concentrated my efforts every day on accoustic tone, Vibrato, Long notes, TB etc and its has definately been worth the effort to just play better and concentate on Technique.
I now have a tone I am happy to take forward with and have had some good reactions.
To prove a point about the gear. here is a clip of me playing into a pc sound card with a bullit mic.
Warning the sound level on this is very high so turn it down abit before watching
i'm one of many who had the idea that the "right" amp and mic would make all the difference. that led me on a goose chase for some years. about 10 years ago i revisited my acoustic tone and realized that for all intents and purposes, i sucked pretty badly. even with the gear i have these days- replica '59 bassman, nice crystal and custom mics, and a smaller silvertone 1482 amp for smaller rooms- i MUST pay attention to what i'm putting out, from my diaphragm all the way to the harp itself, first BEFORE any amplification.
we just had a discussion last week on acoustic chops. and the proof for me is always sitting down with just a harp, or with a guitarist partner, and playing an hour or 2 acoustically.
amps and mics do have an effect but it can be a detraction and a crutch. i have handed my mic and bassman over to a fellow harp guy or gal and heard them sound as thin as they always do.
as for what a crystal mic is, it's a mic with a crystal element. shure made these for many years before technology found cheaper ways to amplify sound. they are still available- look on ebay- for a price. a crystal reproduces mids and highs very clearly yet with nice depth and warmth. the bottom or bass end is sort of weak on a crystal and a lot of harp players just skip over them for that reason. i got a deal on a nice crystal bullet several years ago and got very used it's sound. recently i had a mic built. dynamic, high impedance, with the right volume control and a good connector for my uses. plugged into either map it sounds like a million bucks.
but all of that would be moot if i didn't have some decent acoustic chops!
You've asked a good and reasonable question, and I don't believe anybody here has answered it adequately. Of COURSE the way to sound like Kim Wilson is to BE Kim Wilson; to play for 40 years, etc. etc. But that's not the question you asked. You were specifically asking a question about what equipment is required to produce the distinctive tone he gets here. Kim gets a wide variety of sounds on the different T-Birds records--wide enough to make clear that he's using different rigs on different albums. The sound on "Down at Antone's," for example, is noticeably "wet," meaning that he's using some sort of reverb tank, or perhaps reverb added by the studio engineer, where the sound on "Jumpin' Bad" is completely dry. If I understand you correctly , you're simply asking what variance in rigs--i.e., in mics, amps, reverb units, etc.--can account for the distinctive version of Kim's sound that you're hearing here.
Good question. Somebody should ask Kim.
Kingley, regarding your comment, "If a Green Bullet into a tube amp doesn't give you a Chicago blues sound then no gear in the world will. It's your tone and technique that's the problem": Kim isn't a Chicago blues player. He's a Texas blues player, born in Detroit (if I'm not wrong) and schooled to some extent in California, but making his living for many years in Austin, TX. As far as I know, he uses Astatic mics, not Green Bullets. And the point isn't that he uses tube amps, but WHAT kind of tube amp he uses to get the range of colorations he gets on different albums. I've seen him play through a pair of Tweed Twins, but I suspect he's also recorded through Champs. Michael is seeking answers to those questions.
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2009 6:53 AM
It seems like instead of speculation or even a guess what he might use, I'll I got was "your tone sucks work on that."
And for the record, I'm 100% sure that is not the problem. I may have not been playing for long, but I've spent long and hard making sure I have a round full tone and converted myself to a 95% tongue blocker to get the desired effects that the Chicagoans and players like Kim do. But when it comes down to playing it amplified, it can sounds so much different depending on what you play through.
Ok my tone could use some more work, but it's approximated.
Adam gets it though. Thanks for the added insight, and defense. I'm going to see if I can somehow email Kim or maybe someone associated with him for an answer. Seems like the best bet at the moment. Although, I won't blame him of he can't recall what he used in 1986 on one particular cut! ---------- Michael
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2009 9:16 AM
Kim's style was well established before he ever moved to Texas, so if anything you could call it California, but in my opinion it has more stylistically in common with Chicago than California.
He does of course bring some other influences into play but it's predominantly a mix of Chicago Walter Horton / Little Walter with a bit of George Smith (California) thrown in there. Then of course he mixes it up and it comes out as Kim Wilson.
It would be fair to say that the T-Birds are (were) predominantly a Texas blues (Rhythm and Blues) Band. But I disagree that Kim is a Texas Blues harp player.
As to the gear question, well that's a crap shoot at best. It has an echo / delay /reverb on it. It could be an Echoplex / Roland 501 / Boss DM-2 / DD3 heck even an old drainpipe. It will most probably have been added in post as Kim tends to avoid using effects (at least these days) in live situations.
One thing Kim does tend to favour is ceramic mic elements or brush elements. Like the old Turner and Astatic elements. But having said that he will and does play through anything that gives him the sound he wants at that time.
If you wanna try a delay then the best around (new) at the moment is probably the BBE Two Timer. I say this because most harp players in general prefer analog to digital when it comes to delay (Adam is one of the few exceptions to this). But basically any delay will give you a "wet" sound.
Mgimino, Sorry if I offended you that wasn't my intention. It's just that usually in these cases people mean "Why don't I sound like Kim Wilson?" I just got the wrong end of the stick.
Please accept my apologies.
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2009 12:43 PM
That's a great answer, definitely one I can work with. I'll start looking around at some of those options you gave me. I found a video of Kim playing Down at Antone's live semi recently
Any information ascertained from the video would be great. The mic he is using looks familiar but I can't name it.
edit: whoops wrong one, but still good
So his set up sounds like it has been consistent over the years.
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2009 10:11 AM
I read in an interview with Mark Hummel that Kim Wilson has used an Astatic T-3 mic. It is a chrome mic and bullet shaped but somewhat smaller than a JT-30 with a different type grill.
In that clip the mic is an Astatic JT30 (probably with ceramic MC127 element), the amps are a Fender Bassman and it looks like a HotRod Fender BLues Deville, linked together. Kim usually uses 2 amps together these days.
Astatic JT-30 sounds like a good choice. i'm looking around ebay and google but it seems like vintage ones aren't very common. Would bidding on one like this be a good idea?
The amps I'm not worried about, eventually in the future I'll be using a harp gear amp no matter what. Whenever I can afford it anyway. ---------- Michael
I would be wary of bidding on a JT30 on ebay with the original element. Due to their age most crystal elements are either very weak or dead.
IF you're determined to buy a JT30 with a crystal or ceramic element then I would go to someone like Ron Sunshine (his ebay name is deluxe8765).
Ask him for one with a ceramic element in if he has it. They are usually in better condition than the crystals.
Another good source for vintage mics is Dennis Gruenling (www.dennisgruenling.com),
Personally I think you're better off with a JT30 that has a CM (controlled magnetic) element inside it. They are workhorse mics that should you last a lifetime.
Guys, obviously acoustic tone really matters the most, but equipment means a hell of a lot too. Do you really think that the reason that Paul Butterfield doesn't sound like Kim Wilson is because one of them has better tone? A lot of their tonal differences (counting out their drastic differences in style) come from their mics and amps.
Also, I don't know if he still uses them, but meteor amps advertises Kim Wilson as being one of their users. He has also recently become an endorser of fatbottom mics http://fatbottom-mics.com/ ---------- It's all in the tongue
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2009 1:27 PM
I'm talking about tone, not style of playing. And tonewise, Estrin, Piazza, and Gruenling sound pretty similar to me despite their unique styles.
Obviously no two mouth cavities are the the same, but then again most harp players try to shape their mouth in a similar open cavity manner. I think if Butterfield and Kim played with the same setup and they just played one note then they'd sound pretty darned similar. Now obviously if they started soloing their styles are quite opposite but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have a similar tone.
TBH, I know Jason and Chris's tones and styles sound very different acoustically. But listening to them sharing the mic has made me more convinced that mic and amp make a huge difference because their tones (again, not to be confused with style) sound similar to me in this video.
That being said, obviously all these people have great acoustic tone so they sound great through just about anything. But I can't imagine Kim Wilson sounding the same if he played a sm58 through a PA system. Not that he'd sound bad, but his tone definitely wouldn't be the same.
If it doesn't make a huge difference then why do so many pro's use $300+ mics like the ones from fatbottom and $1,600 harp gear amplifiers? I don't think blues musicians make enough money to waste on expensive amps if they don't really make a difference. ---------- It's all in the tongue
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2009 2:35 PM
Estrin, Piazza and Greunling sound nothing alike tonewise.
All players have a different acoustic tone. When this is amplified then their tone is just louder.
If you took most players and had them all play one note of course it would be hard to tell the difference.
But all great players can be recognized within a few notes by their individual tone.
If you had Piazza, Estrin, Greunling, Michalek, Ricci and Gussow and you were blindfolded and they all played through the same amp /mic set up. Playing the same tune (say Summertime for example) it would sound markedly different from player to player.
I agree, however, the difference would become far more drastic if you had them all play into different set-ups
I think there's a thin line between tone and style and we have slightly different ideas of where that line is. I think if you can hear extra notes dirtying up someones sound from tongue blocking, that's a stylistic and not a tonal difference. Style of vibrato is another stylistic and not tonal difference IMO. Tone to me is the sound someone gets playing just one note (no vibrato) without any inflection.
In other words, tone is the unique set of overtones that occur in a sound. So like you said, if you took most players and had them all play one note it would be hard to tell the difference (except with beginners and people who don't open their mouth enough), and that's what tone is to me. Everything else that makes a player unique is style IMO.
No hard feelings here, I just want to clarify my viewpoint. ---------- It's all in the tongue
Last Edited by on Aug 22, 2009 2:52 PM
