I was going to post this in the "has anyone ever disrespected the harp to you" thread, but its really not central to that discussion.
Basically, I agree with Chris. You need to know what notes you are playing.
I keep hearing the 'just feel it' crowd. Come on. An artist needs to know how to mix color, so he can express exactly what he wants to. Otherwise you are limted to tube colors. A musician needs to know how his notes will sound, and why they will sound that way. If you don't know at least the chord makeup for the blues, you are not going to get very far until you learn.
While I do question the need to appegiate 7b5 chords for blues playing (but then again, I think of extended chords as suspensions, so bear that in mind), I feel that music theory is the MOST POWEFUL TOOL for understanding how music works. It also provides a way to communicate to other people what you are doing. So, if you are still in the 'music theory sucks' camp, consider this: what will you get out of it?
1) Ear training: Helps you learn how to copy licks. Ever been playing been playing at a jam, and echo the guitar player's lick after hearing it only once? Feels pretty sweet when you do. 2) Chord structures: Helps you know which notes will be consonant, which will be dissonant. Ever hit a sour note? This won't prevent it, but at least you will know why it sounds sour. 3) Non-chord tones: Helps you understand how a melody moves, and why it works or does not.
I am often asked: 'what makes a good melody?' 'how do I know which notes to play?' 'how do you know chords without tabs?'
Always the same answer: I study music theory.
http://www.musictheory.net/ This place has good ear trainers. Check it out.
I am eager to hear everyone's thought on the matter. Unless your thought is 'just feel it.'
I also agree that any serious harp player should know something about music theory. As someone who did not study music in school (one of the few things I regret), I've had to dig in and learn some stuff. Like Preston (who commented in the other thread), I too am wired in such a way that I need to have some basis for understanding before I can feel comfortable with music.
But I also hear the other camp. I believe it is important not to over-think. Music is about expression after all. But knowing at least some music theory makes life a lot easier --- there is no need for playing to be a guessing game. A little knowledge lets you move more easily to different octaves and positions, not to mention being able to understand musicians who use the language of music theory in jam or band settings.
I have found www.howmusicworks.org to be valuable resource.
Good Thread, not sure its just Buddha's theory, but I guess he opened the can this time so.....
Everyones gets some theory. In being able to play anything you eventually get to know some theory. Like the general blues chord progression if I IV V is a music theory. It's understood that it follows music related to blues, roots, folk, some jazz and country tunes and it has variations on the progression that fit too and you learn not to play certain things at certain times and you learn about keys and related scales.
I think the question most put up is to what level of theory do you need to udnerstand to make good music from any instrument. 7b5ths are cool as are understanding augmented chords and their relative scales but not focal or necessary in making good music.
The use of theory should be exploited to the level that you as the performer are satisfied and that suits your playing and genre. When you need more then go out and get it. I don't think that you need to understand music theory at all depths to be a good musician, and certainly if you are satisfied with 1st through 3rd harp positions you don't need to under stand every other bit of music theory.
mr sp&so, I like that web site too. Lots in there for sure but I have a preference for private lessons to learn theory. Someone to review it then show me applications.
Edit - Eartraining - I believe in this for sure. I don't think it has anything to do with theory, all though you learn it during ear training, but it sure is needed in all music.
---------- "Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
Last Edited by on Aug 28, 2009 10:30 AM
Firstly, thanks XHarp for your comments on the other thread. Much obliged.
Secondly, I admit to being in the "just feel it" camp because I must admit to finding music theory rather daunting and quite a dry subject.
I too have the Jon Gindick book and have read the short article at the beginning on theory and was hoping that was all I'd need to know. (Not that I've needed to use any of the information yet, though).
I hear what some of you say about the theory being an aid to your development musically and as this is what I would like. Maybe someone could suggest what aspects of Musical Theory would be useful to learn. It's a massive subject and I don't want to learn stuff that's not necessary.
I'll look at the links phogi and mrso&so provided in the meantime and see if I can handle it. ----------
"Maybe someone could suggest what aspects of Musical Theory would be useful to learn"
For me, and I'm sure it's different for every person, theory allowed me to learn different positions. I wanted to learn 3rd position, but didn't know any 3rd position licks. So I took my old cross harp licks and instead of thinking about notes or harp holes, I thought in scale degrees. Now it is fairly easy if I come up with a new riff or lick to try it in a couple of different positions to see what sounds the best. I learned how scales are built from the major scale, and what basic majr chord wher first. Knowing that I started seeing relationships in notes from chord to chord, and why some notes worked better than others in various places of the I IV V progression.
tooka, I t oo prefer the feel method but realize that I needed to learn more to do other things. Talk to mr. so&so. He did much work on the circle of fifths and positions and there is much good basic theory within. In fact, Adam was so impressed he once setup a link to this on this site. I think now you'll find it in the archives.
It is indeed an excellent resource. I'd say start there. ---------- "Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
I've been playing for 17 years and up until a few years ago,I avoided music theory like the plague. I'm from the "feel it" school and thought any music theory would ruin me. Some players I've heard were well grounded in theory,but they just played the notes but didn't make music. No wrong notes but very emotionless -stiff. As I became a better player,I found I was playing with better musicians.Now,I often play with guys who do it for a living.And these guys speak the language of music theory.I lack the vocabulary to communicate with them.If I'm to progress as a player I need to learn the language.As far as I IV V 12 bar blues in 2nd position,music theory's help would be minimal. But when I want to sit in on "Chameleon", I think knowing some theory would help immensely.I've learn some theory through osmosis. There was a time that if the band said "we start this on the V", I'd go into a panic. I've at least learned that much. I've still got a long way to go.
I am a pro modern jazz and blues muso I am a multi instumentalist.I do play blues harp but it is not my first instrument.
You never stop learning right.The more you know the better you will play, fact. Folk learn different ways so I think it all depends.
In blues lots of great players don't know too much of the mechanics. In fact it can be a handicap depending on the nature of the individual.That is very important,determines how you will tell your story right.( Don't hang with squares)
In jazz as in good blues to make a living you need to know what your doing.You have to be comfortable in any situation. If making a good living from jazz and blues isn't your aim you choose semi pro or other way then perhaps the theory isn't too important as long as you can play and you got good ears.
There is always the odd genious that comes along but to be realistic you want to get on and play your music earn well and most of all be employable then you need to be able to read charts be able to score stuff have good ears and have a good working knowledge of several instruments outside your main one. So you get your self to the crossroads make your decisions and get on with it.
As I tell all my jazz students though.Don't get hung up on all the technical s....Do that and you'l end up playing like that.
My advice is live it breath it and things will take care of themselves.
Stay clear of squares and negative s...
Oh yea and always have fun.
Last Edited by on Aug 28, 2009 4:07 PM
I started being interested in music theory past rhythm chart reading (for percussion) a couple years ago when I began to dive into the guitar again, and play the harp.
I started to study it because without it, I felt crippled. I wanted to know the rules so I could bend and break them at will, vs. accidentally play within them, or worse, play without them to the point of embarrassment.
I get a bit of both sides. The feel side, and the theory side. For me, good feel comes from applying good theory. When you know where you can go, you can let the feeling loose and sound good for it. It's not to say those without theory don't do great things with feeling only, but I think they're lucky people. Music theory doesn't have to turn you into a wanking technical Yngwie Malmsteen, but it sure can help you know where the limits and possibilities are.
For me, one of the biggest "aha!" moments was the relation of chord progressions and arpeggios within a key. I found a book that hits home for me - "Music theory for practical people". And while it has a sort of light cartoon style like Gindick's book, it really boils down the info to concise concepts that are easily understood with some practice and reinforcement. As I struggle to be smarter than a guitar neck and to know where to start and stop among the ten holes of a Hohner, theory makes me more aware of why I'm doing what I'm doing.
That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it... mostly.
I need to learn alot of what I jokingly call the Math behind the music, I know it, I hate it but I know I need to do it. That being said I've seen some newer Harp Fiends that get so wrapped up in notes, scales chords ect. that they are hesitant and the best advice I've given lately is take a break and play, carry a harp everywhere, car, walking, work breaks, commercials, waiting for medical test results, if you find 10 minutes free, play for 5 don't search for something to define, notate, decipher, just play, play hard, play soft play whatever comes in your head, pick a rhythym and play, you'll hear the bad, throw it out, if you hear something good repeat it, just play, pick out a very familiar melody like Swing Low Sweet Chariot and see if you can figure out how to play it without looking up the notation, just play, don't put your harp down and go to the keyboard, you can do that after your mouth is tired and raw, Just play. We all love Blowing Harp, play like you do, Love it and Play.
I really don't know what to recommend. The simple answer is you need a little but not a lot.
I know some theory but very little really - when I was a teenager learning piano you weren't allowed to sit grade 8 unless you had grade 5 theory, so I learnt enough theory to pass grade 5 but it was very boring stuff - I never had any interest, and you didn't need it, it was a just a formal requirement. Also it was to prepare you for music school where theory lessons would have been compulsory, I assume). That was in the Seventies. I've forgotten it all since then, except I can still remember what perfect and plagal cadences are (I just had to look up plagal in the dictionary though) and things like tonic, sub-dominant, dominant and so on.
Buddha is right and Buddha is wrong. He is right in the sense that bad harp players are responsible for the harp having a bad image (in my book bad lead guitarists are responsible for my hating "lead guitarists"), but he's wrong in the sense that he just goes too damn far.
Part of me thinks, if the guitarist says "I'm going to play an A13 with diminished 9 followed by an augmented 7 with an augmented 5," then either he's wearing a tux or there are only three people in the audience who aren't asleep.
I've never been keen on tabs - I prefer scores, but it's surprising how hard reading a score is on anything but a C harp (sure - it takes practise, and I've not done a lot of harp playing from a music score). So, in many ways I'd rather combine music scores with tabs (have the notes and the joins between them, but have them square say for blow and round for draw and with numbers in). When I'm playing my Ab harp I don't know and I don't really want to know what note I'm playing.
**Each note's relationship with the tonic of the scale is more important than its actual value.**
I could work out the actual note with a pencil and paper, but I rarely feel the need to, unless I'm transcribing it, of course. But when I transcribe it, I'm only going to play it one harp, so it may as well be a tab instead.
What licks do you play in third position? All licks are just variations on scales or arpeggios (including the licks that Mozart wrote. Or think of "Deck the Halls with Boughs of Holly tra la la la la" - it's all scales), so practise scales and arpeggios. You can, and have to be able to, do that by ear. But maybe spendin all my teen years playing scales means I'm wrong to assume you all know what the scales sound like. On the harp you've got the extra facility of sliding up and down the blow or draw notes - these are just arpeggios, although the draw notes contain variations on them.
And listen to Jason play something in third position. You have to do that by ear too.
Last Edited by on Aug 29, 2009 3:12 AM
I see how some people dislike theory, but in my opinion, it is the most powerful tool, as I say, for increasing understanding.
As for players that just play the notes with no soul... This brings me to a (musical) theory that I feel is important for anyone learning theory
Music theory is kinda hard for most people, so many just focus on what seems like the most important part: "What note do I play? What notes sound good together?" If you use music theory to answer these questions only, you might end up playing without emotion.
So, this begs the question: what makes music expressive? how does music convey emotion?
The answer lies (in my opinion) a few key areas. Today I'll wax on one of my favorites
HARMONIC TENSION is the area which addresses one way in which you can build emotion. It is all about asking "How do I crease suspense? How do I create a sense of direction?" rather than "which notes do I play?" Do you remember a time when you were playing, and, perhaps as the tension is building, and the band is getting stronger, and you just start hitting notes that really go somewhere? Notes that seem to lead the band into the next chord? Well, you were probably doing a good job of creating emotion by creating harmonic tension.
To learn about creating this tension, you need to have some prior knowledge. 1) What chord is bring played 2) What notes are chord tones (ie, what notes are being used in the chord) 3) What notes are non-chord tones 4) Key (what notes are in the key AND what notes can you borrow from the parallel minor without killing your vibe) 5) Key(also, what notes can you get away with using that are in other keys)
That alone is usually to much for people. But, once you've got that prior knowledge, you will be able to grasp it a bit easier.
So, one way to build emotion and excitement... HARMONIC TENSION aka dissonance / consonance
So, the band is on the I7 chord. Happens all the time. You have some choices.
1) Play only chord tones. Nothing will sound sour, but it will (probably) be boring unless you do alot of cool rhythm stuff.
2) Play only non chord tones. This may induce pain.
3) Find a way of weaving from chord tones to non chord tones
In trad. theory, the idea is like this. The number represent the scale degree (aka, which note of the scale is it? The first, second, third, etc..)
5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1
A I7 chord is 1,3,5,b7,1 Think of all motion as leading back to 1. Yes, it can go other places, but thinking of it going back to 1 is a useful idea.
1 is home 2 is a dissonance. It can be used profitably to move to 1, it can also lead up to 3. 3 is a place you can hang out, but eventually move on from 4 is a dissonance. It really likes to move to 3. Now, in blues this is slightly less so if you are moving to a b3 (flat three) 5 is a chord tone, great place to chill, moves well to 1, also moves well to 6, then 7, then 1. 6 is a dissonance, especially a b6. normal 6 can have a sweet sound too. But eventually it likes to go to another place. Like 7, then 1 7 is a dissonance, it REALLY likes to go to 1. b7, less so, but b7 likes to go to normal 7, then to 1.
Common movement combinations 5,1 5,6,7,1 5,4,3,2,1 4,3 7,1 1,6,5 1,4,3 1,b3,3 1,#4,5 5,b6,5
There are prob about 30 or so of these typical movements that demonstrate understanding of harmonic tension...I may put in the time to think of them all if you all would find that useful.
Anyway...beware that these movements are not designed to be cool licks. They just demonstrate dissonance vs consonance.
The important part is in understanding which notes are dissonant (build tension) and which are consonant (relax tension). If you use your other musical skills to emphasise the difference between dissonance and consonance, then you have powerful tool for expression, and when you understand it well, a way of creating direction.
Ok, so looking back, I did not describe that so well, but I don't talk about this stuff much, its just in my head. You may look at that and go "WTF?" Also, you will, as I did when I was learning about this stuff, say, "Well, what about this song prof? It doesn't follow your silly rules." Well, this isn't a law book. Theory (once you are past the 'math part') is simply a collection of useful ideas.
In the end, you create expectation, then either fill it, or don't. Either path works. Most the time.
Well, that's a lot of numbers, Phogi. I hope it is still possible that we can persuade people that something without a lot of numbers can also be true!
Here's something that's crucial: -
You need to learn to think of every musical phrase, whether it's in Mozart or the blues or anywhere else, as a series of notes leading to a "climax" or "head" note. It's very much like archery: you have a trajectory and a target at the end of the trajectory.
When you play, you must always break up your music into phrases and aim for the head note each time. Make sure that when you get there, when you reach that target, you haven't run out of breath or energy or enthusiasm, because if that head note is feeble, then the whole phrase will fail. You play every note in the phrase with your mind on that head note. Take a piece you know and separate it into the phrases - decide which notes are the meaningful ones, the ones that must be stressed and that's how you work out where the phrases are.
Try it with something obvious like Swing Low Sweet Chariot. This piece can be phrased many ways - you can have phrases that are only two notes. Your phrasing might depend on the speed you play it. But look at that word "home". That's a pretty obvious target in every sense of the word. It's not only the spiritual target, it's the musical target too - that's why the song works so powerfully - the ideas and the sounds combine perfectly. So "coming for to carry me home" is a phrase - home is by far the most important word and note in the phrase, and you play the whole phrase solely in order to get there.
You can work out the rest yourselves (feel it!).
Last Edited by on Aug 29, 2009 5:14 AM
"but he's wrong in the sense that he just goes too damn far."
This is where YOU are wrong Andrew. I am world-class player with a truly original sound. At the most recent SPAH there were countless players that have been adopting my sound in to their playing. I am pushing the boundaries of our instrument on every level. My efforts in this make things easier for all of you that come up behind me.
To say that I take things too far is an insult. Eff you.
Frankly, its not that I go too far, it's that I actually do the work. If you want to be a good player then you need to do the work. If you want to be good at anything then you have to do the work. If you want to be great then you need to do more than just the work. You have to push the envelope and establish new boundaries.
Andrew, since you feel confident enough to talk shit, I challenge you to post some of your music to see how much work you've put in. Until then STFU
Guys, learning theory isn't going make you lose how to play with feeling. Either you have it or you don't. You don't need to know a tonne of theory just enough to know what you are doing.
Music is a language. Does knowing about nouns, pronouns, verb, adjectives and increasing your vocabulary in general diminish how you communicate? Are you any less passionate as a person?
Perhaps some of the people who saw me play at SPAH will chime in especially on my version of summertime. What I played left people with the since that I could have played more but I didn't. It left people thinking there was a lot of power behind my playing. I made the entire audience laugh by playing a single note that was technically wrong but yet sounded incredibly right during that moment. I played stuff that was predictable and unpredictable and I could only do this because I knew exactly what I was playing and what notes fits where. Understanding and controlling my playing doesn't diminish my playing.
"Music is a language. Does knowing about nouns, pronouns, verb, adjectives and increasing your vocabulary in general diminish how you communicate? Are you any less passionate as a person?"
I find myself agreeing with Andy [edited to read: Andrew] here, for the most part.
Buddha: Some harp players are interested, like you, in breaching every imaginable boundary on the harp and getting to a point where they can legitimately (and repeatedly and loudly) insist that they're world class. But not all of us are.
And there's room for all of us in the conversation. You're not PERSONALLY taking your musical explorations too far. You're a true musical explorer; we all get that. You're doing what you were put here to to do.
But you're becoming needlessly rigid and doctrinaire when you suggest, or insinuate, that all harmonica players, including all blues players, must master the intricacies of jazz harmony. I certainly haven't. But I'm pursuing my own freshly-awakened muse, one that has more to do with groove and tone and even trance-repetition than jazz changes, and I'm OK with that. I learned a long time ago, during my own close encounter with jazz theory at Berkelee (7 weeks one summer when I was 19), that I just wasn't a jazz guy. My mind didn't work like that. By the same token, I wasn't just a straight-ahead blues guy. I wanted the funk in there, and a little jazz flavor, along with the heart-grabbing intensity.
This website makes space for all kinds of blues players, and even a few jazz players. Wise as you are, and I am, and Andrew is, and even crusty old Sopwith Jazzman, we each possess no more than part of the puzzle.
We need the seekers, the break-all-boundaries boundary-breakers, but we also need Joe Filisko. Wouldn't you agree? There's no sign in their playing that either James Cotton or Sonny Terry knew anything about jazz harmony, but each, in his own way, was a dazzling virtuoso, and both brought great respect to the harmonica.
My own 2 cents: I encourage every blues harmonica player to take a course in basic harmony and/or basic jazz harmony, if possible. I know what such a course did for me; how it permanently inflected my playing, even as I discovered that jazz performance simply wasn't my forte. It's important for blues harmonica players not to rear back on their haunches, reactively, and say "I don't need to learn music." Learn a little music. It makes it easier to communicate with other musicians.
By the same token, the jazz guys sometimes get their kicks, as you know, by looking down on "blues players," thinking them fundamentally ignorant in certain ways. And that, too, is a mistake. It's one that Sterling Magee warned me against a long time ago--the condescension of jazz players towards blues players.
The most creative people I know (including you) usually end up being the ones who help show people that the lines they THOUGHT were there aren't really there at all.
Last Edited by on Aug 29, 2009 8:04 AM
There's a bit more to be said (thanks for your support, Adam).
When I wrote "he's wrong in the sense that he just goes too damn far" I wanted it to be ambiguous. What I really meant was that Buddha's way of talking to people was over the top, but I wanted people to read their own thing into what I wrote. I wanted to raise the issue of self-awareness. I made a mistake in using the words "just" and "damn" - I incautiously turned what I wrote into polemic. Buddha read the most personal attack possible into it and reacted almost violently, which is interesting and ironic, considering how after writing, "ALL of YOU who do not know what notes you are playing. All of you who do not have a basic understanding of music theory. All of you people who go out to jam sessions and wank away." he followed it up with "way to read into [it] what you want."
I have said for a long time that mathematics don't harm an artist - I used to go to life-drawing classes. When you scale a drawing up or down you can use a framework of squares or triangles drawn with a ruler. I heard people objecting to that on the grounds that the scaled version was mechanical. I disagreed. I asserted that if you are an artist then you don't let it become mechanical. If you are an artist, then the lines you draw are still musical even when they are drawn on a grid. So music theory doesn't harm your music (in agreement with Buddha), but you can live without it. Vladimir Ashkenazy would be just as good a pianist if he knew no music theory. But there is a distinction between playing and composing music. Arguably, theory is more important if you want to compose, but it's still not essential: - as far as I know, Lionel Bart was a musical illiterate.
Last Edited by on Aug 29, 2009 7:56 AM
When I said ALL of YOU WHO do or are xxxx.... claim it or not but don't bitch about being disrespected as a musician when "you" don't know shit about the instrument or the music you're playing. Frankly, you deserve to be disrespected so suck it up or do something about it.
I don't look down on blues players or any other kind of harmonica player. I wouldn't be here if I did. Anyone who has met me in person will tell you how supportive I am of other players regardless of musical choice and level of ability. My only goal is to help those that want it, to be better musicians.
Adam, it's not that I am rigid about anything, its more like I want harmonica player understand a higher standard of playing and musicianship is necessary to move this instrument of ours forward.
Andrew, Im very violent, very peaceful, very loving, very spiteful, very supportive, very generous, very stingy... the point is I do everything to the full extent of my abilities. Which side of me you choose to be on if up to you.
To me, living a tempered life is not living. So yes I may go to far to some of you, but to me it's not far enough.
Learn theory if you want, be even keel if you want, strive for mediocrity if you want but I strive for greatness and it's not an easy path. I thank ALL of YOU for pushing me to get better every day.
Fine, but there's different ways to strive and to excel, yours isn't the only way, and someone who doesn't follow your way isn't necessarily going the wrong way.
"That woman ain't taught me nothing. She come out with them do re me's and I didn't know one from another. 'Dog gone them do re me's,' I said to myself."
Buddha, for those who want to be a better musician by way of learning more music theory can you offer suggestions for books, websites, &/or what kind of courses they should look for?
Only suggestion I seen so far was Jon Gindick's Rock N' Blues book, Google search, howmusicworks.org, & musictheory.net. Is that the best way to go about learning?
Miles - Hopefully new-comers will be able to tell the difference between fact and opinion no matter the source and strive to share both of theirs.
---------- ~Ryan Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
I am a rank beginner at harp. I am no more than an intermediate level "theorist" regarding the ability to "talk the talk" and frankly, i could care less about talking arpeggios. I use them very effectively in all my music and nobody has ever asked me what they were.
Last night, I had moments of "single-note brilliance" as I like to call it (forget arpeggios for a moment). I strive to do more with less. Yes, I do runs up and down the harmonica. Yes, I love triplets. Yes, I can and do improvise on the trumpet/percussion/vocals/harp/guitar/mandolin/bass. And, yes, i think many of the single note moments i create in our set are pretty much jazz-rooted, not blues. It's unmistakable the reaction you get from that one "wrong note that sounds good right there, but nobody in the audience knows why"...I know why, that's why i picked it. Can I talk about it..maybe...in many cases, no. But, I know where it is. I can feel it in relation to where i am and I do it naturally...after studying it out and practice...putting in the work. I'm not sure there's any one answer to whatever the question actually is. I also live on the edge. I have the injuries to prove it and am reverting to music because all the other fun stuff hurts too much. After my recent surgery, music hurt last night too. I still love it and am glad I have it, at the level I currently am and the level i will progress to. I will study theory along the way. Will I talk it? Probably not.
Hi all, I think Buddha's original, rather blunt comments, were a response to an issue we all are touchy about, how much harmonica is disrespected. And he is right, there are lots of players out there who do not know what they are doing and give it a bad name by thinking that they do, and playing in public. Still, it is generating interesting discussion.
My theory is so so, because I got some in piano lessons as a kid and then it just would not soak in. But what did, and my slow learning curve now means I know a little. In our blues band, our drummer is classically trained, and does percussion for symphonies and operas. Our lead singer had an undergrad degree in music. Our lead guitar player knows almost no formal theory. His idea of teaching a song is say.... listen to this, and play it. When we play out, the guitar player is the one who people stop and listen too. The kids learning guitar in the jazz program at the university stop and listen to him. He does work hard on his playing, but for him the theory is not what it takes. So I guess in even this one band, you can make a case for most of the points that have been made previously in this thread.
And dang you Buddha, now i gotta spend more time on theory than i have in the past!
In our band, we get a very evenly spread level of interest in our instruments..crowd-wise, i mean. Everybody has somebody swamping them on the stage as we pack up. Smiles and friendly conversations hold us up as we mix those with the packing and moving of gear. I honestly don't know the musical background of these guys, but everybody is a perfectionist at getting their part right and in the right place. Tight is the goal and we are. The audience reacts accordingly. Some of the answers may be related to another thread on "greatness"...maybe it's all relative. Are you "great" to the people that really matter to you?
honestly, I don't know a tonne of theory. I'm still learning. However I do think it's necessary if you want to progress as a musician. I don't teach theory to my student unless they ask.
I have used and generally recommend a few different books.
The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine How to improvise by Jerry Coker
Patterns for Jazz Jazz Vocabulary Thesaurus of Scales Encyclopdeia of scales
I also have lots of books on ragas, konnakol, maqams and japanese music.
I'm biased because I love theory, but the whole playing with feeling thing is so false. Look at Charlie Parker. Musical genius and he put SO MUCH FEELING INTO IT. There is no excuse to not learn simple theory. Learn to form 7th and 9th chords and blues scales, that's a PERFECT thing to learn for blues. Trust me, knowing how those flavors work is amazinngg.
What I wanna know is how can we follow your recommendation to "learn to form 7th and 9th chords and blues scales..." when you don't mention how and where? If you don't give us the tools we can't follow your recommendation. If I thought everyone that listens to music should own Miles Davis' Kind of Blue I'd offer a link ( Like So ) that way if anyone wanted to follow my recommendation they'd have at least one tool to do so.
---------- ~Ryan Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Yeah - Thanx to that link I learned about double sharps and flats!!!! But now if I try to remember all this theory - I'm gonna forget how to get home!!!!! STOP THE VIOLINS STOP THE VIOLINS (oops - I meant violence!!!) ---------- If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Andrew: don't agree with most of your thoughts on the subject.From my point of view that is not the way to think as far as music is concerned.
Having read all the posts on this thread I agree the most with Buddha. I feel that to me is the approach to take.
Kudzurunner: I hear what your saying man and I love the constant bebates between you and Buddha. As iv'e said before, get you two together playing and teaching on the same stage fantastic. Too great players coming at it totally different ways or so it would appear. However when you strip it all down Buddha jazz and Kudzurunners blues there is a lot more common ground than at first is apparent.
I actually think it excellent to argue these respective corners on a regular basis.Each of us will take what we want to take and leave the rest right.
I do think that Buddhas comment about feel is spot on irrespective of the learning process.You either got feel or you haven't.Or similar words
(That may open the debate up a bit ha ha )
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2009 9:56 AM
This certainly got to be a hot thread--so I naturally have to put in my 2 cents--of course, this is just another opinion;
Learning theory is a great way to come up with new stuff--if you have any creativity at all (or if you get bored easily) you will discover fun new riffs while trying to arpeggiate a C Maj 7 chord for example. (If you just do it straight--it sounds like elevator music).
However, if you find yourself onstage or blowing a solo at a jam session, and you get to thinking that this would be a good time to arpeggiate some fuc*ing chord--you are just plain wrong.
Theory is a great way to help you put this stuff into muscle memory--but thinking about it while playing is just futile.
I have learned a great deal of theory in my life--but I find that I need to go re-study it every few years, because I forget the shit when I just play music. . .
how do you arpeggiate something? i know what an arpeggio is but i dont know how to do it on a harp. is there any reference to this or do i just have to sit there an figure out the notes one by one?
@Jonsparrow; Arpeggiating is just playing the notes of the chord one at a time. To practice it, I think you need to know enough theory to know what the notes are in the scale--then which of those notes comprise the chord. It is usually practiced from the lowest note to the highest, then back down.
Of course, you probably already know this. On the harp, I think the best reference for me is a piece of music paper, on which I write out the scale--then, on the next line--I figure out the notes of the chord.
Then I refer to my harp note diagram (I think there are some of these in Jon Gindick's book "Rockin Blues Harmonice," to help me find out where these notes are. Then I tab it out and play it until I can do it up and down and inside out--which will probably take me longer than I will live. ;-)
I'm sure Buddha or somebody else could tell you a lot better ways to do this--along with better references--this is just my own make-shift way to do it. In the process, you do learn a lot of stuff that might be interesting, but mostly it is arduous work, and I never do it for more than a few minutes at a time, because my brain doesn't hold very much. It's good to play some really rowdy blues after you do it--just to get you back into the real world. . .
Ok I'm gonna be real careful here about how I word this because about a year ago I got involved in a thread about theory with Zhin and Buddha and got a pasting for my views so here goes...
I LOVE!!! wanking at jams. It's the thing that keeps me going when I'm working 12 hour night shifts or getting up with my 2 year old at 04:00 or having a row with my missus or trying to tell my 11 year old he can't have a tatoo. I'm just an ordinary joe trying to make a living and bring up a family and once every 2 weeks or even once a month I get to go to a jam and play 3 songs and that re-charges my batteries till next time. As I said the last time the reason I started playing harp was I could do it without learning much theory and although I've picked up a little along the way, I haven't gone looking to learn any either. And I'll tell you what.....I'm a very happy person. And I agree with the Chris that if you want to be a great musican then you need to learn theory, but if you don't then you CAN STILL BE HAPPY AND LEAD A NORMAL LIFE!!! I gotta go lube myself up for my next big jam wank!!
Just keep sucking on a 2 draw bend....and it will come eventually. I guess I'm a "Feel it" player too As the saying goes.."You can beat your wife and you can beat an egg, but you can't beat a good wank"
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2009 6:14 AM
