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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Lee Oscar SP 20 3 hole half step bend Tweaking
Lee Oscar SP 20 3 hole half step bend Tweaking
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528hemi
33 posts
Sep 04, 2009
12:48 PM
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I dont really like the shape of the cover plates aon my Lee
Oscars and for the most part out of the box they were horrible. That said, I have been practicing alot on my SP 20 to nail the 3 hole 1/2 step bend and find I am almost always over bending it to the full step. Even when I consciously bend it just enough it sound airy. On the Lee Oscar the 3 hole feels great. I can nail all the bend and it feels like there is a distinct step between them. The 1/2 step locks in and sounds good. The 3 hole 1/2 step on my Golden Melody also sounds better then my SP20. My Suzuki Harpmaster and SP20 3 hole plays almost the same.
So my question is do I need to increase the gap on the 3 hole so it will take a little more force to bend and I wont overbend the half step to the full step or does it have to do more with the reeds itself?
Thanks for the help.
528
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mickil
507 posts
Sep 04, 2009
1:23 PM
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I'm no expert on harp maimtainance, in fact, I hate it. Just wanna play 'em.
But, have a look at Buddha's YT, or Dave Payne's website (elk river harmonicas). I hear people mentioning their harp tinkering vids on here from time to time.
With regard to the 3< 1/2 step, I do seem to remember Dave once writing at some length on here about how it can be different on different harps for different people. For example, all Seydels - I think - have long slot combs, whereas many harps above Db have short slot combs.
Having said all that, I'd lay a penny to the pound that with practice you'd adjust to the harps you have, unless they were completely buggered.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
YouTube SlimHarpMick
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harmonicanick
363 posts
Sep 04, 2009
2:04 PM
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just play 'em ,man!!
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528hemi
34 posts
Sep 04, 2009
6:05 PM
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OK...I regapped the 2 harps and now it is much better. The Gap was to close and was causing me to overbend with the slightest change.
The video on gapping is priceless. I am spending alot of time tweaking my harp just gapping and it is making a world of difference. The more I experiment with the gapping the better I am understanding exactly what I need to do to adjust to my style of playing.
Thanks to all that responded.
528hemi
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Gwood420
24 posts
Sep 04, 2009
8:44 PM
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i would love to know the actual measurements of the gap the pros use.. at least if i knew that, i would be able to try to come close.. like a spark plug for my truck, i would love to know that "i usually gap my hole 3 draw reed to .00? inch/mm" and on the 4, the 2, ect.. even for overblows..
is there a reason noone has said this?? seems like it would almost be a standard gap for the best reaction.. Chris? Dave? or any other pro mod out there...
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2009 8:45 PM
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mickil
508 posts
Sep 05, 2009
2:48 AM
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Gwood,
If you take a look at the differing lengths, widths, weights/no wieghts, reed materials, etc, etc, etc, of different manufacturers' reeds, you'll probably answer your own question.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
YouTube SlimHarpMick
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Gwood420
25 posts
Sep 05, 2009
6:23 AM
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if i had more that one type of harmonica... im not good enough to buy up that many.. yet..
i guess that was just wishful thinking :)
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Gwood420
26 posts
Sep 05, 2009
9:06 PM
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i thought about what you said today mickil.. there are alot of different motor/plug combos too... every motor has a different(or the same) plug with a different gap.. im sure a hell of alot more combos in mortors worldwide than found in harmonicas.. but i can find out the gap of any peticular plug/motor combo in a second using google..
lets say budah(just for ex.), mods a MB in c, and measures the gaps that he finds are best for bending.. wouldnt that go for all MB's in C(made of the same material)?? if he did a SP 20 in A, and took the time to measure...ect.
i see your point, but that database would be something that noone else has, and would help out other players more/as much as You tube itself(overstatement im sure)..
the only way i could be wrong on this, is that the gap from one MB in C to another MB in C could be different when trying to get the same outcome.. from an engineering side of things, it would seem that reed plates in the same key, from the same company, for the same harps would react the same..
again, it may be wishful thinking, but i think it COULD be possable.. such a database would deffinatly drive some traffic towards the site that could do something like this..
Edit/PS: just a point.. it has been on my mind alot today, and i needed to get these thoughts off my chest..
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2009 9:27 PM
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congaron
111 posts
Sep 07, 2009
11:03 AM
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It's metal..seems reasonable to me. Suzuki is WELDING reeds on. I find it difficult to believe they aren't using specs like this. With the price differences between their harps and some others, It seems they have cut some production time somewhere. The logical assumption would be minimizing hand craftsmanship.
Precise specs like gap, red thickness and curvature, etc. would cut down on the time spent this way, if already in the reed/plate before they welded it. There are robots measuring and QCing other robots work in manufacturing these days. I believe it could be done, especially by a company like suzuki. A company concerned with producing more of something than anybody else will find innovative ways to do it. They already know the quality expectations and meet those easily. I'm as likely to tweak or adjust anything I own as the next guy, but i don't do it if it works just right already. I have to say, my suzuki harps are not immune to this. I have tweaked every harp from every manufacturer to suit me. Granted, the suzukis and special 20s seem to need less tweaking. However, in every case the differences were visible to the naked Eye. Noteably, my marine band is the only one that could overblow holes 5 and 6 consistently out of the box...even though many of the suzukis could do one hole or the other or even 4-6 sometimes. Consistently, for me at my level...marine band is the only one. So of course i have now done virtually every mod but sealing the comb on it.
It would be very cool if there was a closer, more consistent base-line harp..maybe the manji will be it.
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2009 11:04 AM
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KingoBad
80 posts
Sep 07, 2009
2:40 PM
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Dudes, Its a floating piece of metal tacked at one end. Even your breath force can change the gap after a while, that is why you need to figure out how to adjust it for your style of playing - which WILL change over sometimes a very short period.
My suggestion is if you play very hard leave yourself larger gaps on the holes that don't matter as much (1 and 2) and anything else i suppose that might choke when you play.
My true solution is gap as tightly as you can and play softer. You will still get plenty of volume and just learn to put your force into percussive efforts instead of blasting away. Also, you will need to close down your gaps on the opposing reed side as well for responsiveness.
Learning to bend with a more responsive harp may seem harder now as your muscle memory might not be great just yet, but limiting your possibilities by lessening your harps ability to bend because you play too hard seems a little counter productive to me.
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2009 2:40 PM
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MrVerylongusername
498 posts
Sep 08, 2009
5:37 AM
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Out of the box harps are generally gapped pretty loose so that newbies don't blow out reeds by blowing too hard. The gaps should be set OK to play all the regular draw and blow bends and to play regular notes without the reed choking. I've never had a harp that couldn't be bent and that includes a whole load of £3 cheapies, Lee Oskars, Seydels, Hohners (MBs, Sp20s, GMs, Proharps), Suzukis, Bushmans and a Hering 1923. That isn't to say the harps didn't have faults - some did, but they were all playable at a basic level.
Gapping is about optimising the harp to your playing style and with that there are just too many variables to say - everyone should gap the 1 draw to 0.x mm. There are rules of thumb, but they don't take into account different embouchures, different attack styles, different playing styles.
And for those that are looking at regapping because they can't bend; I've said it many times... If you can't get the bends on a stock harp, then you need to develop your technique. When you are learning, every bend takes conscious effort. When you get to the point where you can bend without 'trying' to bend, that's when you can start thinking about what your style is and how to make the harp work with you.
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2009 5:38 AM
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congaron
113 posts
Sep 08, 2009
8:31 AM
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I think the key here is consistency. Out of the box harps could be made to the same specs every time if the effort was made. Then the baseline harp would feel consistent Within a manufacturer, model to model, etc..or at least very similar. There is almost no similarity at all between my special 20 in A and my Marine band in A. Both are very playable, but simply not the same in terms of air you need to get what you want. Neither takes excessive air, but the marine band definitely takes a little more. I prefer it for anything that really rocks..the special 20 gets the nod for quiet ballad style stuff. Don't get me started on the consistency of blues harps. Of course another player might prefer them in exactly the opposite way for the same reasons. Having a baseline spec on anything adjustable is always helpful. At least then, when you get one hole that's really out you could put it to spec and see how the rest of the harp is with that taken care of. What would it hurt?
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MrVerylongusername
499 posts
Sep 08, 2009
9:13 AM
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What would it hurt?
Re-tooling of the factory and/or additional specialist craftsmen and longer time per unit. That would get translated into more expensive harps. They cost enough as it is.
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2009 9:14 AM
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congaron
114 posts
Sep 08, 2009
11:07 AM
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I seriously doubt gapping is done by a machine. The human could use a feeler gauge and actually pay attention to the outcome, if the specs were actually known.
I guess a boycott is out of the question on the prime offender manufacturer....um, if there is one.
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MrVerylongusername
500 posts
Sep 08, 2009
11:31 AM
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I didn't say it was done by machine - but someone suggested it could be and I'm sure with a little R&D it could be. Guess who'd pay for that?
So the other alternative is to pay the person who does the very cursory gapping at the moment to do a more thorough job - slowing down production drastically. Guess who'd pay for that?
I don't have any problem with how harps are gapped. I do have an issue with the QC on Marine Band combs - but that's a personal opinion and is easily fixed - I just don't buy them anymore! The difference between your 2 A harps most likely has nothing to do with the reed adjustment, more likely the comb.
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