Theres a lot of discussion about technique, tweaks, amps, mics, harps etc but something we don't discuss much is the real creative side of harp playing.
By this, I mean the creative art of either accompanying other musicians or a backing track and composing on the fly (so to speak). All the well known famous riffs we hear must have originated somewhere. Were they created at the time of a performance, before a performance and rehearsed or was a tune created as a vehicle for a lick or riff?
We've probably all seen the video from SPAH called the Ultimate Jam where the players just jump in and play. What I'd like to know is, how is it done?
Apart from being a darned good technical player with a pretty good knowledge of music and a lot of experience, what else is needed to be able to do that?
Do you think they have an armoury of tried tested and rehearsed riffs and licks which they know well and just pull them out when the occasion requires or do they actually create it all there and then on the fly. I imagine it's a bit of both but if it is actually created in that instant of time, well, for me that is pure artistry.
I realise the nuances of the piece are all affected by mood, atmosphere etc. and could probably not be repeated accurately but it's this artistic process that interests me.
At my stage of development, I find it impossible to even contemplate playing with such assured confidence but it's something I'd like to attempt in the future and I'd like to know if there is anything that could be practiced that would start me down that path.
I imagine there are players who just learn a load of riffs parrot fashion and throw them in when they feel it's right. This may sound ok musically and it may be well timed and sound pretty good, but it isn't real art is it? Or have I got it all wrong?
took, I would suggest its about rythym. I am an improvising harp player, I dont care what style it is..what is the key? Last night I played blues and then late with a lithuanian female folk singer with a beautiful voice. I havent learnt riffs parrot but have just enjoyed myself playing for 40 years + Keeping the beat/rythym is paramount and because of that I have no fear (I'm not smug) in any music situation up to now!
I think a lot of it is just about groove. You mustn't have the good skills and awesome harps or even the "right" instrument for a certain kind of music, if you can keep a groove without being distracted - then you create real music.
and, yeah... of course holding the beat.
And there will always be someone who will want to listen to it. All the rest, the music you play and how you play it is just garnish.
This is something that I have wondered about for a long time. At the jam I go to I would say that I don't know 80% of the songs that they play and yet now I can get up and within a few bars, think up something that will go along with the song...all improvised. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and sometimes you just get in a zone and it comes out brilliant. When I listen to what I played (the jam I go to record all the songs and let you play and dowmload them from their website) I am sometimes amazed I what I have played. When I started taking lessons the guy who taught me told me to listen to as much blues as possible and I think that this has helped because even though you might think that you're not listening properly to a song, something must sink in and I think this is what comes out when I play. I'm an adaquate player, nothing fancy, can't do overblows etc but I do think that listening to blues every spare minute I get has really helped.
Good thread. I have an armory of licks and riffs, but one time I was told I sounded like a guy just playing licks and riffs and not makeing music. So I think it's a fine line. I think you need to have licks and riffs, but also need to have enough musicianship to make theem seem like they fit the music around you.
This is all good feedback fellas. Thanks its really useful information. harmonicanick 40 years eh? I'll be 99 if I can make it. Do they make zimmers with built-in mic stands? ----------
The first rule of thumb is ask them what key they are in!!!! :p
I'm still learning to play with confidence when I'm playing with someone else, but I think it's a lot like singing in a band- you get confidence by doing it over and over.
Here is what others told me and what I've figured out:
Listen to their groove, and when you find a pattern that works with it build on it. Work out some signals so you don't get caught in the middle of a change.
It's a lot easier to play along if you've heard the piece before. It's way easier if you've played the piece before.
If you don't have the groove, don't play loud!
Make sure the guitar player is actually in the key he says he is. Sometimes they just look at their fingers and forget they have some special tuning on the guitar. Watch the other players.
Sometimes when your jamming the other players will play out a section longer if they like what you are doing. If they smile and give you a nod you are probably doing something right.
Most harp players play from an internal sourced memory. ie; memorized licks and runs. You have to learn to play from that external cosmic source of music that exists everywhere. You have to PRE-hear everything you play.
One way to develop this is to first do nothing, get calm, clear your mind and sit in silence. What do you hear? You may hear nothing at first but eventually you will hear melodies and music of some kind.
The Earth is generally tuned to F#. If you get really good at this then you should be able to feel the Schumann Frequency which is somewhere between B/C (7.8hz) You should also be able to feel/hear the spin of the Earth 378.5hz (Exactly 14hz above F#, exactly 5.5hz below G) and the Earth orbit 272.2hz (1.1hz below a C#)
Why is that important? Because you need to be in "tune" with the universe for best results. Learn to hum, whistle or generally because to make music without an instrument. The Buddhists use "OM" to tune into everything.
Once you're in tune with yourself and the universe start listening to music (whatever you like). Don't play along with an instrument. Just listen at first, what do you hear? You should start to hear something complementary. Play along but do not use an instrument. It's necessary for you to develop the proper pathways to create music at this level.
Now it's time for you to know where each an every sound is contained on each and every instrument. When you hear something, you should be able to play it. This is where practicing scales, notes, runs, licks, arpeggios etc come in. It teaches you the instrument but not how to play music. YOU play the music you hear but are not limited by your instrument.
Go back and listen to Christelle's early videos.(I don't know who else to use as an example) Most of them are played from within and simply isn't good music if you can even consider it music at all. Now listen to her recent videos. She's starting to get it. She's finally playing real music most of the time. It's a change all of you should be able to detect. I'm sure Christelle hasn't used my method but she has otherways to go deep within herself which is what you really need to do to get connected.
I think completely improvised music is the highest form of the art. When you do it, it's like a gathering of spirits who gather to dance around and within you.
Here is a clip of me playing with a bunch of guys from Peter Gabriel's band. This was our very first meeting yet it didn't matter. We just started playing and had fun.
Once you get to this point, your biggest assest is listening to everything at once. To develop this, practice you music outside. Maybe just scales or whatever, the point is to listen while you are playing. Play along with wind moving through the trees and if you hear a bird chirp or a car horn sound then respond to that sound immediately.
listen at :41 the bassist plays a little figure in the middle of my solo and I attempt to mirror it back. I don't hit it the first time but I do it again and the the bassist plays it back and it actually becomes a little theme for the rest of the solo section.
i would imagine, it could be very much like singing a tune you make up in your head... you hear a lil ditty and just go with it. i dont think everyone has that. no matter how technical you can become, nothing shines thru in music like feeling and expression. and you either have that or you dont.
"i dont think everyone has that. no matter how technical you can become, nothing shines thru in music like feeling and expression. and you either have that or you dont"
I disagree. Calm the monkey brain and things will come to you.
"The Earth is generally tuned to F#. If you get really good at this then you should be able to feel the Schumann Frequency which is somewhere between B/C (7.8hz) You should also be able to feel/hear the spin of the Earth 378.5hz (Exactly 14hz above F#, exactly 5.5hz below G) and the Earth orbit 272.2hz (1.1hz below a C#)"
Buddha, that is a fantastic post, with much food for thought. Edited slightly, it could be printed out and posted in woodsheds around the world. It certainly deserves a longer and more visible life than merely this thread.
I think I'm going to start a new page on this website and call it something like "WISDOM: Soulful advice for harp players." May I inaugurate it with a slightly edited version of what you've said above? I'll be happy to run the edit by you before I post it.
OK, but before we go any further, my serious thoughts were these:
Buddha, Schumann Resonance is an electromagnetic phenomenon. We don’t have any electro-magnetic sensors in our bodies (oops - except at optical frequencies). But we do have alpha waves, which I don’t think you can exclude from consideration – you might argue that since brain waves are electromagnetic, we must have some sensitivity to Schumann Resonance, but I think you have to ask, would the alpha waves not swamp the Schumann Resonance? Would they not be more important anyway? Schumann Resonance has a frequency of 7.8 Hz; alpha waves have a frequency of 8-10Hz.
When you chant Om, it basically just makes your head vibrate (your sinuses may or may not come into it), which is a fairly simple way either to block out any other signal or simply to cause a mass stimulation of all the nerve-ends in your head.
You claim that the Earth’s basic note is F# without supplying any examples. The examples you supply are something closer to G than to F#, something between a B and a C and finally a C#. No support for your F# assertion, unless the Earth is a giant F# harmonica playing in second position, which would be ironic, since 2nd is your least favourite position (that was an innocent joke rather than sarcasm).
Finally, you shouldn’t talk about frequency differences – they are meaningless (unless you’re talking about “beating”), and they can be very misleading at low frequencies – consider concert A, 440 Hz. Going down the octaves you get 220, 110, 55, 27.5. The difference between 27.5 and 55 is only 27.5 Hz, to cover a whole octave. To say something was 12 Hz higher than 27.5 Hz would be very misleading – the ratios between two notes are what matters, not the subtractive difference between them
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2009 5:15 AM
we are all nothing more than neutral particle of matter held together by N/S polar magnets. In fact your heart is like a big magnet. The Bundle of His found in the heart is a collection of heart muscle cells specialized for electrical conduction that transmits electrical impulses.
EVERYTHING is vibration
the speed at which something vibrates determines if it is seen, felt, heard or is a solid etc.
The indigenous people of the plant who otherwise knew nothing of music often had flutes tuned to F# or G.. hmmmm why would that be?
Molecular water frequencies also correspond to some kind of an F# chord, the wave numbers of water which are:
1600 converted to hertz = 698 F/F# 2100 converted to hertz = 918 A# 3500 converted to hertz = 134.58 C#
The significance of water to our planet is of course irrefutable.
Not only are we are about 75% water, we are also literally swimming in the Schumann Resonances. These electromagnetic frequencies occur in the cavity between the earth's crust and the ionosphere.
In addition to this base frequency of 7.8Hz, there are quasi-harmonics at (rounded off) 14, 19, 25, 30, 36, and 42 Hz, corresponding to the following tones: B/C, A, D#, G/G#, B, D, and E/F.
***So far no F#***
BUT a curious thing happens when these frequency numbers are increased by an octave. Instead of reaching an exact doubling of the original number ie 440>>>880 a slight collapse takes place and the upper number is less than an octave. When you 'octavise' the Schumann frequencies into our hearing range, 6 of the 7 tones are F#s, A#s and C#s. The 7th is a D#.
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2009 6:00 AM
I also think what Buddha says that they have memorized licks and runs. I asked Carlos Del Junco, Canadian world-class player when he was in my hometown Stockholm,Sweden how much he improvised when he played live. He said that about 80% is what he already knows. So it´s probably very important with a framwork, a homebase to prepare at home first to be able to improvise and make it sound good.
In classical music it's called technique (and on the piano fingering is part of it). It's why you practise scales - music is made up of them. You see a scale on a page and you don't need to think your way through it - your fingers play it while your brain thinks about more important things.
Technique is everywhere. When you hold 10 cards in the trump suit, what's the probability that the outstanding three cards split 2-1 rather than 3-0? Answer: 78%. Now you can plan the play of the hand without having to waste time on trivia like that.
You study/practise in order to free your mind.
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2009 6:32 AM
Carlos is known in harmonica circle to not be a great improviser. There is nothing wrong with a canned or pre-planned solo especially in certain circumstances.
Think about this if you're watching an Artist paint a picture, what is more inspiring? Seeing him in action, creating within the moment? And seeing what is inspiring him? Or looking a great finished product? Which one captures your attention longer?
The answer is different for everybody but for me, I prefer to live and play within the moment. I love 100% improv if possible.
"if you're watching an Artist paint a picture, what is more inspiring? Seeing him in action, creating within the moment? And seeing what is inspiring him? Or looking a great finished product? Which one captures your attention longer?"
I've read more than a dozen biographies of Picasso, and I have a copy of George Clouzot's movie "Le Mystere Picasso" (which shows Picasso painting) and it's an inspiration. In days gone by people read Imitations of the Saints or the Imitation of Christ. Well artists are saints - imitating them (i.e. their methods, their way of life) ain't bad.
@Andrew. Is that the film where Picasso is in shorts painting on a translucent screen from behind. If so, I had that on video, it's a brilliant insight into his painting method. He was so very fast and his accuracy was blinding. I must admit to enjoying seeing how he worked more than the finished article sometimes. Without doubt a modern master. It's the imagination and creative process that interests me first, the result second. ----------
Buddha, someone has been blinding you with pseudo-science. Have you been reading a book on ToE or something? Here's a question for you - if F# is so important, then how do you explain the existence of (source-uncited) flutes in G that clash so badly with F#? Or are you going to say that G is a quasi-F#? "In addition to...7.8Hz, there are quasi-harmonics at...14..." 14 is a quasi-harmonic of 7.8 in the same way that George Clinton is a quasi-brother of Bill Clinton!
"The significance of water to our planet is of course irrefutable. " The problem is, every molecule has its own resonant frequency due to the energy of the electric charge of its atoms (and the flexibility of its bonds and so on – I can’t remember all the details) - they don't vibrate in sympathy with water! If we vibrate in “sympathy with” water, it’s only because we are water, as you say. Maybe microwave ovens are the new Arcs of the Covenant!
http://science.jrank.org/pages/5817/Resonance.html This website claims that 22.23 GHz is the basic resonant frequency of a water molecule. If you divide this by 2 enough (the repeated divisions by two mean that you don’t need to quote the original frequency more accurately than this) in Excel you’ll end up with a note of 663 Hz. This is a slightly sharp E.
http://www.schoolphysics.co.uk/age16-19/Wave%20properties/Wave%20properties/text/Microwave_ovens/index.html This site gives the resonant frequencies of Hydrogen chloride 8.66x1013 Hz Carbon monoxide 6.42x1013 Hz Nitrous oxide 5.63x1013 Hz I put these into my spreadsheet. The notes are a sharp D#, A# and a flat G# respectively.
From memory, the Schumann stuff is caused by lightning. You don't literally swim in EM, you metaphorically swim in it. That's not splitting hairs - it's just pointing out that what you say contains rhetoric which is not the same as irrefutable argument.
I'm sorry but we're getting into the realms of pyramidiotology here, and that's such a time-waster (intentionally). People ask me how come Pi appears in the ratios of the pyramids. Is it because they used something as complex as a pair of compasses to design them, I ask? People ask how come the Egyptians have such a precise knowledge of astronomical phenomena? Is it because the Sun is such a blatant astronomical phenomenon in Egypt I ask.
These theories, and conspiracy theories, rely on a couple of psychological tricks: 1. Tell someone there's a needle in a haystack and ask them to prove you wrong. 2. Tell someone there's not a needle in a haystack and ask them to prove you wrong (I think this one is subtler) They all rely on exhaustion preventing anyone from refuting them. People buy this stuff, and conspiracy theories, because it’s easier than disproving them.
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2009 1:22 PM
"Is that the film where Picasso is in shorts painting on a translucent screen from behind."
That's the one. Yep, Picasso was the greatest artist who ever lived for my money, not just because of his finished paintings (the only one I dislike is Massacre in Korea) but because of how much hard work he did.
@Andrew. We are in agreement. I have Guernica (a print from the Madrid Museum) on my bedroom wall a watercolour copy of sleeping peasants on my dining room wall, loads of books etc. He was a maverick. Although classically trained, he turned his back on the art establishment to paint with the naiveity and open-mindedness of a child. Anyway - that's geting off the point, I don't want to hijack my own thread. ----------
I imagine lots of instruments are tuned to compliment the vocal ranges of the people singing along. I can get down to the F two octaves below middle C, but it's not a strong note for me. There are mathematical relationships to different notes inside each key. If I was designing and instrument for the general population to sing with and I wanted to be able to really give my basses something powerful I'd put it down around an F or G, then the tenors will be powerful singing an octave above. I'll let someone with a better understanding of the human hearing range explain the rest.
I'd like to stress something Buddha said in the middle of that poetry, sort of paraphrased, correct me if I'm not doing it justice- all the practice helps you know your instrument. When you are trying to figure out in your mind what sound you want to make you need to know where that sound is on your harmonica.
There are a couple of ways you can get there. You can memorize which hole you blow to get the third, and calculate out from your knowledge of theory when you should play a third. You can learn which hole on which harp plays the sound you are hearing in your head that you want to play. Or, you can play so much that the sound is also a reflex. Instead of shaping your vocal chords to make the sound you change your embouchure and how you are holding the harmonica. It becomes your voice.
Personally, I'm terrible at the first way, mostly because I don't buckle down in practice. I like to play for fun, so I don't like the non-creative, memorization part, although I know that if I could drill that into my head I could use it to be much better at the creative part. I'm getting O.K. at the second way and I aspire to the third way.
You have to learn that C is not the same note in different key. Sure, it's frequency is the same, but the whole way it relates to the other notes changes. (Tonic, subtonic, leading tone, all that good stuff...)
Ugh, it's just occurred to me that Buddha wrote, "BUT a curious thing happens when these frequency numbers are increased by an octave. Instead of reaching an exact doubling of the original number ie 440>>>880 a slight collapse takes place and the upper number is less than an octave. When you 'octavise' the Schumann frequencies into our hearing range, 6 of the 7 tones are F#s, A#s and C#s. The 7th is a D#."
and then I wrote, "This website claims that 22.23 GHz is the basic resonant frequency of a water molecule. If you divide this by 2 enough (the repeated divisions by two mean that you don’t need to quote the original frequency more accurately than this) in Excel you’ll end up with a note of 663 Hz. This is a slightly sharp E."
I'm starting to smell an old rat. Some guy, because of some theory he wanted to sell, wanted to reach an F# from the resonant frequency of a water molecule, but dividing the actual frequency by 2 gave him an E, so he altered the ratio to just under 2 to end up with an F#. He then provided the claim but no justification for it. This kind of fiddling goes on all the time.
It's very reminiscent of the sort of thing Graham Hancock does.
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2009 3:51 PM
Andrew, I don't know if this is absolute stuff. I have read and experimented with so much stuff on resonance, earth frequencies that I don't even know who wrote what or what I got from where. I do know there are tons of books and ancient cultures that speak of F# as the hum of the earth. I also know that I can hear it with my own ears so that make it true FOR ME.
" It's called tinnitus....... "... ok, let's refute from ironic comments.
Tinnitus has nothing to do with your musical/spiritual center, but is a small abnormality (with a devastating effect) of a RANDOM pitch. If it's anything it's the absolute musical killer (let's say some creature from musical hell), because it blocks the main gateway between you and the external musical world.
Disregarding the obvious metamorphic origins of Adam and Buddha, I'm pretty sure that there is a good explanation for all of this - and non involving psychic and physical sickness. At the end, as music always does, I think this touches the depth of human "truths" of which we all could make use of... So let's not be content with our "monkey brains" and if its only to deliver this one epic, absolute and perfect jam.
Amen!
---------- germanharpist on YT.
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2009 2:55 AM
maybe you guys are far ahead of me technically; probably so. i have always been a gut player and rely on instinct learned over many years on many stages with all types and levels of musicians and a fair variety of musical material. my goal has been to emulate and respect the masters who inspire me to this day. i wonder how many of them were resonating in F#?
one of my questions i have asked myself a lot is, am i going to play for my peers or for an audience? or am i working toward a personal epiphany? at different points in my few decades of playing harp, each and all of these have been answered yes.
i shy away from too-deep technique. at least as far as thinking out what i'm doing or will be doing. i rely much more on what i have learned through hours of playing live, what works here but not there, what i am willing to risk trying, what will work with the band and song. coupled with new discoveries along the way i find i am plenty busy and satisfied with the work and the results.
metaphysics do enter in sometimes. every a-HA moment i have ever had- on a stage in the middle of a solo or just keeping the groove with the band- is to me a metaphysical adventure. to me playing harmonica is a gift i was given, but one i have worked at despite not studying deeply in the usual academic way. i once had a student become my teacher in a few months because he knew how to truly be a student. this was humbling but i had enough sense to let the roles reverse and actually learn some things from him. thanks to him a whole new chapter in my development opened up, probably much sooner than it would have. i don't know if he resonated in F# either but he knew how to study music and knew what direction he wanted to go in, and how to get there.
maybe you guys are talking about what i call my muse. i follow instinct and gut feeling and sometimes inspiration hits me about a better way to get a job done. or i wake up in the middle of the night and have something in my head that i MUST write down and develop into a song later, or right then, before i can sleep again.
i think technique-wise many of you are better students than i am. so technically you may be better players. but i will always stand by instinct and the live laboratory of a stage or street corner, out live, no do-overs.
it's kind of for the same reason i don't want to get involved in recording my own stuff, i'd rather let a pro do that, someone who has the savvy and the tools and the feel to get it done right in a single take.
@GH. I'm qualified to make such a statement as I suffer from tinnitus. I had many ear infections as a child. I have a constant high C ringing in my head at all times. It's more noticable when the background noise level is low,as Chris mentioned. Particularly when I go to bed. This is a truth I live with.
I've had hearing tests that confirmed this. Great tool for tuning and it did not negatively impact my musicality. Not to brag but I was best in state in high school on my instrument (bass clarinet) and was honored to be able to play with the All-State Symphony Orchestra. I am in no way making any claims to what I can or can't do on harp. I suck.... and blow..... and enjoy it.
Anyway, my comment was from my warped sense of humor side or as Chris/Buddha would put it, I was engaging in a bit of jesting(see other thread with my comment about playing through my butt).
Chris is a big boy whom I have much respect for. I don't agree with his non-filtered approach to life but again I respect his choice and abilities. I can't imagine he not expecting an occasional poke or for that matter to be questioned on his statements. Filtered or not.
I completely agree with Adam on Chris bringing much to this forum (& youtube), technical and philosophical. I would find it very interesting for Adam to do as he requested of Chris and have a page called "WISDOM: Soulful advice for harp players."
I would refrain from adding "Deep Thoughts From Jack Handey"
Me too the big "T". Tinnitus. It's a constant hiss but I'm not sure what note it is but it's very high pitched. When I first got it about ten years ago it drove me mad it kept me awake at night and even now I have to have the radio on at night to distract me from the noise. It's something to do with the tiny hairs in the inner ear becoming damaged after an ear infection or deteriorating with age. If you've been to a really noisey concert and come out with your ears ringing then it's like that but permanent. There is no known cure but after a while you can sort of tune out of it but it's always there. One of those things, I guess. ----------
1) The best teacher is experience. Practice alot, jam alot (to a point), play with others alot.
2) The most educational experience is playing with other GOOD musicians. Watch for signs that they like what you are doing. (Don't fully rely on it though. Many good musicians also have poor taste).
3) When talking to GOOD musicians about music, pay attention to what they say. Talk about how the parts fit together, etc...
4) Listen to a crapload of music, and listen close. Listen to music you don't like as well, figure out why you don't like it.
5) If you suck, think about why. This is probably the most important skill: Recognize when something doesn't work, figure out why, and change it.
-Things that are useful 1) Learning the language of music is very useful. Simply having words to describe music in detail gives you a powerful tool for understanding it. Learn music theory, it is useful.
2) EAR TRAINING!!!!! I know many who say they have good ears, like it is something they were born with. Well, maybe its true, but more likely it means they spent alot of time figuring out music by ear. Train your ears by imitating other players (of any instrument). Train your ears with a piano, or a ear trainer software, whatever. Learn how to identify chord changes by ear. Learn to hear major vs minor, movement by 4th, 5th, minor 3rd, major 3rd, etc...
3) Learn the notes of every basic chord. Do it in this order: 1)Major and minor chords associated with each major and minor key. 2) Suspended2, Suspended4, and 6th chords. 3)Dominant 7th on I, IV, and V 4) learn the 7th and 9th extensions of each chord. 5) 11th and 13th, if you want to play modern jazz.
4) Learn alot of licks. Steal them. Make them up. Most improvised playing is based on this.
5) Learn to play along with music that will not work with your bag of licks. This requires that you use your ear.
That's I have time to think up right now. Oh yeah, you also have to get in tune with the collective unconscious all that. AKA, feel the vibe of you audiences expectations. Good music, in my opinion works by creating expectations, and then selectively fulfilling or denying them, thus creating suspense and interest.
