asilve3
16 posts
Sep 07, 2009
4:21 PM
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Dear harmonica aficionados,
Currently I am in the process of writing and composing material for what will be my first full length album. Aside from being a record that I hope will appeal to a wide variety of audiences I particularly want to create something that is interesting for harmonica players to listen to.
That being said, what is about your favorite harmonica album(s)that strikes and inspires you? Which albums are those? Also, what makes one harmonica album stand out from another? What is something that hasn't been done with the harp and you want to see happen?
Some of my favorites:
Matt Geraghty Project ft Howard Levy, "Passport" - This is a jazz album that features Howard and an Indian signer. The harmonica playing is so beautiful on this album. Matt Geraghty's compositions flow through a variety of different movements and combine influences from around the globe. It is really interesting to hear Howard inject his playing throughout the recording.
Blues Traveler "2002-Live: What You and I Have Been Through"
This is such a great live disc and it touches on many of the great BT songs from their career. John Popper rips up and down on this record. There is a stand out solo on the last track "The Path" where Popper uses a wah effect and he lays down one of the funkiest harmonica solos of all. That solo forever changed the way I thought about the instrument.
Satan and Adam "Mother Mojo" - Two guys never had such a big sound. Adam's tone is his and his alone. Both players have a signature way they play as individuals and together that gives this record its particular character. Also, VERY funky. Nice arrangements too, everyone should have this recording!
Hazmat Modine "Bahamut" - Another very original album. Wade Schumann combines a wide variety of instruments and interesting arrangements of the multiple harmonicas. Very solid harmonica playing on this album, good singing, and also a variety of musical styles are represented throughout.
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2009 5:01 PM
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harmonicanick
368 posts
Sep 08, 2009
1:11 AM
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Lee Oskar's first cd
It has a 3 part opening sequence which his musical journey from europe to us. All in minor keys.
Good luck with the album
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Buddha
977 posts
Sep 08, 2009
6:09 AM
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Planning for it to appeal to a wide audience is a mistake. Making a recording that is interesting to harmonica players is also a mistake.
you have to simply play your music in your own way. If it appeals to a wide audience then it does. If it is interesting to other harmonica players than it is... YOU can't decide what is good for the masses nor can YOU decide what is interesting to other harmonica players.
If you ever speak to A&R guys they will tell you that Diversity and Variety is a killer. You need to be specific.
Britney Spears once was appealing to a very wide audience but was she appealing to you?
You're a very good harmonica player but you need to discover your own path and your own sound otherwise you may end up with a garage full of CDs and appeal to nobody but your immediate loved ones.
That said, I'd be happy to help with recording questions. I made lots of mistakes with my first CD and now have many things solved for my next one.
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
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congaron
112 posts
Sep 08, 2009
8:18 AM
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I have to agree. I would rather buy an album of a certain genre if it is from an unknown artist. In reality, it seems unlikely you'll break any revolutionary new ground on the harp (not meaning this as an insult in any way) so I would be more likely to buy your album as a jazz or blues album...insert your own favorite genre of the moment. For me, Harmonica is a flavor, an acquired taste most people don't have. For "wide" appeal, you need to narrow your target audience to a genre, in my opinion. Do you also sing or play other instruments?
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dfwdlg
56 posts
Sep 08, 2009
11:18 AM
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I do have recording questions for Buddha et al. I'm going to put harp (acoustic/non-amped)on an original song that has 12-string guitar, voice and some country style lead guitar already laid down. My harp part sounds a little 50's doo-wop like (almost Elton John crocodile rock-ish). I expect some competition in the frequency range of the harp (key of A for this one) from the instruments already there. I have a good selection of mics including lg-diaphram condenser, sm-diaphram condenser and SM-57 type dynamics. Any thoughts on mic selection/placement? I can drop the lead track if needed, but it is pretty well done.
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Buddha
978 posts
Sep 08, 2009
12:08 PM
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use three mics to mic the amp. One off the cone(usually dynamic), one behind and one in front (both condensers) to capture ambient the room sounds. All of these will need to be mixed according to YOUR ear unless the engineer understands harmonica sessions, most don't.
When it comes time to mix, the engineer is going to want to give each instrument it's own space in the mix, this is very typical but doesn't work for the harmonica. I learned this AFTER my CD was recorded. You want the harp up front and centered equally between the channels to give it it's biggest sound.
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2009 9:58 AM
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dfwdlg
57 posts
Sep 08, 2009
1:09 PM
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Buddha - I was thinking more of harp played open air, no amp at all. I don't think I'll get a great acoustic space to work in either. I'm tempted to go with an AKG 414 and play about a foot away. I can rig an SM-81 a few more feet away for ambience but may opt for reverb when mixing instead as my room will pretty much be a typical bedroom.
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Buddha
979 posts
Sep 08, 2009
1:50 PM
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oh, use a neumann U87 if you can. The Sennheiser 441 is great too. Play into one mic and have another condenser over your head and harp as well. Mixing the two signals will give you a thicker and warmer sound.
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
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walterharp
50 posts
Sep 08, 2009
7:56 PM
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ricci mentions in the linear notes how rocket # 9 took off with the blues guys after the band decided the blues guys would not be happy and just did the music the way they wanted to. but it better groove, or you are lost.
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asilve3
17 posts
Sep 09, 2009
1:34 PM
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Thank you all for the advice.
Chris - Yes Britney spears does appeal to me... some of her music is pretty sweet too. I would be very interested to hear what you have to say about the recording and writing process. I have listened to "Monk Alters Chi" many times.
Congaron - I do sing and play guitar in addition to
harmonica.
Would anyone out there want to answer the question I asked? Here it is again
What is about your favorite harmonica album(s)that strikes and inspires you? Which albums are those? Also, what makes one harmonica album stand out from another? What is something that hasn't been done with the harp and you want to see happen?
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Buddha
987 posts
Sep 09, 2009
1:51 PM
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If you're going for an acoustic sound, listen to the first Trio Globo album. The harmonica sound great.
My CD is not recorded well. The next one will be.
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
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congaron
116 posts
Sep 09, 2009
3:15 PM
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I would love to answer the question, but honestly don't own a single harmonica album. I have been listening to B.B.King's bluesville every night on xm satellite.
I'm pretty much a blues harmonica know-nothing. I love music and play out frequently (for money even), but blues harmonica is a whole new venture for me. Sorry....any questions on live sound reinforcement or EQ or making dirt cheap rigs that actually work well (live sound or guitar or harp)...let me know. BTW, the term "dirt cheap" is relative... there is no free ride.
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walterharp
52 posts
Sep 09, 2009
8:21 PM
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my current favorite harp album is rocket #9, done with the devil is close, but has not caught up yet. they followed their hearts when they made it, not caring what others felt and just played the best music they knew how...
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kudzurunner
680 posts
Sep 10, 2009
9:52 AM
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Remember the phrase "Garbage in, garbage out."
It's obviously very important to get a sound you like. Chris's suggestions are excellent. Harp always sounds better when you've got a combination of close miking--a mic right on the speaker cone, slightly off axis--and room miking (a mic a few feet away, or even ten feet away. Much bigger and more solid sound that way.
But you've got to play with passion and inspiration or no amount of mixing is going to save you.
Jason has always said he likes MOTHER MOJO, but I've always actually felt that it wasn't recorded in a way that really captured the wildness of our sound. HARLEM BLUES, by contrast, got pretty much all of that. The difference was amps: on HB, we used our small street amps, cranked up, although I swapped in an Ampeg Rocket with one 15" speaker for one of the Mouses. They sounded huge. On MM, Sterling used to 50 watt Randalls and I used my 1955 Bassman and something else, I don't even remember. MM is way too clean for me. This actually gives the album a nice intimacy on the cuts where I'm NOT playing amped ("Silly Little Things"), but it tamps down the wildness.
But back to passion and inspiration: out of all the playing on all three S&A CDs, the solos that give me the most satisfaction are the two-chorus solo on "I Want You," which was played absolutely flat-out, half-drunk, and has flawless technique and organic structure (not a clam or a wasted note in it, and it really doesn't sound like any other player you can name; all my influences are fully subsumed and I'm just playing AG as hard as I can), and the solo in "Unlucky in Love." That second solo was also played very hard, and it's also organic--each phrase flows out of the phrase before, which is something that I got from watching Nat Riddles--but at a certain point near the end of the solo, I really FELT the blues. I was thinking about my then-current GF and realizing that I was in the middle of one more really bad live-in relationship. I was unlucky in love. I felt the song. And I just started wailing on the 4 draw and kept wailing. It's basically the simplest expressive move on the harp. It would have been easy to let my mind get in the way and say, "You can't just keep wailing on that note, it's not creative." But I trusted the feeling and completely committed to it. When I think back on the solo--i.e., on those rare occasions when I listen to the song--I remember that moment, and I'm proud that I'd learned the lesson about feeling what you feel and keeping it simple.
So do your best to cultivate some seriousness of purpose--which it sounds like you're already doing--and to follow the fire wherever it leads.
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sopwithcamels266
205 posts
Sep 12, 2009
10:27 AM
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Read some of the posts here and I find myself again in agreement with Buddha. Not intentional ha ha.
You can't please all the people all the time.
As an artist you do what you (yourself) like and do it to the very best of your ability.
Buddha says you have to play your music your way.
How true that is and a lesson right there in that sentance. In fact Buddhas first post on this thread is spot on.
It takes a lot of guts to do what he is saying but it's the truth and for me that is what it's all about.
..........
Last Edited by on Sep 12, 2009 10:28 AM
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congaron
125 posts
Sep 12, 2009
10:48 AM
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I'm not so sure about telling the engineer where to put the harp, unless he is totally burying it during solos and melodic numbers. Any instrument will stick out and get tiring to the ear if you showcase it at an excessive level relative to the rest of the music. If the engineer is any good, I'd defer to him unless the harp is buried (it won't be if he's any good.) This is a case where "more me" can really shoot you in the foot. Once the mix is mastered and the cd is out, you have a harp cd instead of a blues, jazz, whatever..if the harp is over-emphasized....meaning level too high in the mix. There goes your "broad appeal."
Of course it needs to be prominent if it's your primary lead instrument, but levels are the job of the engineer. Get a good one and it isn't a problem.
I play harp and love the sound of it but have had relatives of the harp player tell me to turn him up at a live gig while I am running sound...during passages where the harp is clearly in the rhythm and the lead guitar is soloing or the singer is singing. Be careful about over instructing the engineer is all I'm saying here. He or she will certainly ask for your input. Make sure you give it and take his/hers as well.
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Buddha
993 posts
Sep 12, 2009
11:07 AM
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Congaron,
I wouldn't trust an engineer unless it were PT Gazell.
The advice I gave for mixing is the same advice Howard Levy gave me a couple of years ago. He's recorded more harmonica than all of us combined.
Most harmonica playing is terrible, most engineers haven't heard good harmonica and most of them do not know how to properly record it.
Listen the Flecktone albums. The harmonica sounds very thin. You can bet they used some of the best equipment and engineers available and they didn't get it right. Howard said he sat down with some engineers and figured out how to properly record a harmonica player. I would trust him over any engineer because he has a great ear, is the most advanced player on the planet and has more experience than any of us.
A few years ago, I was part of a session in North Carolina were we put Phil Wiggins in a studio and figured out the best way to record harmonica. What I described above, works.
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
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congaron
126 posts
Sep 12, 2009
12:13 PM
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I hear recorded harmonica daily in all styles of music. Daily. It is instantly recognizable as harmonica, the tone is whatever the player is doing...trust who you will. The whole point of recording is to make things sound real...from a consumer perspective. How many band tours have flopped because they "don't sound like the album?"
Your opinion is yours..mine will remain what i wrote.
Working with the engineer is important, as you also noted...after i already recommended it. I am sure all the successful albums over the decades with harmonica clearly recorded and recognizable as a harmonica or amplified one were accomplished with cooperation between the artist and the engineer. It's unlikely the artist's mixing contribution was the final deciding factor, regardless of what you think. I have personally reached for a switch that was not even in the signal chain and received the nod of approval for a "correction" recommended by some very good musicians.
No attitude, just saying. Just real experience.
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Buddha
994 posts
Sep 12, 2009
12:16 PM
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please post a sample of a CD that showcases YOU.
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
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asilve3
18 posts
Sep 12, 2009
1:48 PM
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Thanks again everyone! I will keep all this in mind as I press on. Stay tuned.
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asilve3
20 posts
Sep 12, 2009
10:22 PM
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If anyone is interested here is a demo I made this week of a new song. This is one of the styles I'm working with.
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8091266
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Buddha
996 posts
Sep 12, 2009
10:41 PM
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the harp is too hot. add some vibrato to the three draw to cover the minor intonation in the begining. Clean up that very last unison phrase and you've got a harmonica hit.
This very good overall!!!!
Nice use of space. Everybody on this board could learn a little some listen by listening to the use of space and phrasing.
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
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congaron
127 posts
Sep 13, 2009
4:58 AM
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A cd showcasing me is irrelevant. My point is it has been done successfully over and over by many, many engineers, over many years in many genres. Anybody can listen to the radio to prove my point.
Showcasing one's ability has nothing to do with sending a guy into a recording session with a positive attitude and no preconceived negative notion of his engineer's ability to mix. I think that is the best way to approach it.
Besides, I have openly admitted I am a beginner at harp. I think there's no need whatsoever to be doing the engineer's job for him/her in your head, before you even hear their work. My opinion.
I told you, no attitude. I'm not changing my opinion and it doesn't have to be based on a cd of me. It's all over the radio and in movies, commercials, tv shows..everywhere. Harp is effectively recorded all the time. It has been for decades. I still recommend a guy making his first album use the engineer's expertise and cooperate to get the best result. Maybe Buddha can do it differently. A guy on his first album isn't Buddha. If you decide to force a mix correction you can live with the result. It's up to you in the end. Pretty simple.
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Buddha
997 posts
Sep 13, 2009
5:31 AM
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LOL another beginner who doesn't know shit but argues anyway.
The guy that worked with me did albums for Jewel and he failed. The Flecktone albums failed with mixing and recording the harmonica.
As an artist you have to control YOUR sound at all costs. Engineers don't know how you hear yourself.
Just because its on a CD doesn't mean it's good or correct. Deferring to the expertise of the engineer was a huge mistake on my part. Many of the absolute best players in the world have said the same thing. I'm passing on the advice as it was given to me by them.
Have you ever been in a recording session?
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Andrew
611 posts
Sep 13, 2009
6:38 AM
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I'm a beginner and I don't know shit, but I'm going to argue on Buddha's side - an engineer is just a guy with a job, he's not necessarily going to be an expert on how to record every sound known to man or even be in tune with you. What if he thinks the harp is a tin sandwich for guys who like to suck dick? He just knows how to wire a plug better than your mother, that's all. Goddamit, people start applying for computer programming jobs as soon as they learn how to open an Excel spreadsheet! Your engineer may have spent the last two months recording kids singing this year's batch of Christmas singles or he might have spent them recording grunge. He'll need telling what you want.
Jeez, why am I uptight? oh yeah, exam revision!
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tookatooka
488 posts
Sep 13, 2009
1:36 PM
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Listened to your track asilve3. Most impressive. Good Luck with it.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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sorin
54 posts
Sep 13, 2009
5:04 PM
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asilve I loved the music , I have to agree with Buddha the harp is too hot , almost amateurish hot .Is this your band? I love the music.Good luck with the project,and let us know when it's finished.
Last Edited by on Sep 13, 2009 5:05 PM
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asilve3
21 posts
Sep 13, 2009
5:49 PM
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I'm so glad you guys like it. Thank you all for the kind words!
Sorin - This is not my band, I recorded all the parts myself as a demo to give to the musicians I play with. I have a very amateurish setup for recording hence the amateurish sound/levels lol! Thanks for asking!
Last Edited by on Sep 13, 2009 5:54 PM
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congaron
129 posts
Sep 14, 2009
8:38 AM
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I freely admit I am not an "elite player on an obscure instrument" like buddha (translate, most of the world couldn't care less).
Doing anything with a preconceived notion that a professional will fail is just bad advice in my opinion.
Buddha has already critiqued aslive3 first demo and shown that clearly his opinion differs from aslive3. I bet you thought it sounded pretty good before he told you it was too hot. He, of course, began with the negative. That is his "style" of instruction. That doesn't mean it will work for you. He tells you how to get a "Harp hit"..is that what you are shooting for? Now He recommends you use YOUR ears instead of a professional engineer.
I'm not saying don't listen for yourself and work with the engineer. Read my posts. There is no bad advice there, just positive reinforcement of how to work with another human being.
And yes, my band has an album and is working on the second one. We sell them at every gig, and they do sell. I also have individual demo cuts on acoustic and electric guitar, mandolin, bass, vocals, conga, bongo, hand percussion of all types that I use for my own promotion locally. I am a working musician because of my own efforts (my demo cuts), just like any other musician. Proving it to Buddha is the last thing that interests me. Six months ago I didn't know who Buddha was.
I still think a positive attitude and working together with your engineer is the best way.
As for engineers knowing how you hear yourself...Maybe you can buy all your own album copies because you have put yourself right up front in the middle full time for every cut. You have just made a harp album that showcases you..an unknown. A non-elite player on an obscure instrument. Good luck with that.
I say again, listen to recorded media and radio, tv, movies (broadcast recorded media will be even lower fidelity)and YOU prove ME wrong, Buddha. Not just yours and flecktone. Enough insulting rhetoric. Give more examples of badly recorded harmonica than good. That would prove your point. The harmonica is effectively recorded in the vast majority of the music you hear it in. Most listeners are not subjectively interested in the "elite...obscure" aspect.
Buddha, your bad album isn't proof that all engineers will fail the artist. Maybe you are the only one who thinks it's that bad, BTW. Seems pretty likely.
I recommend all adult and adolescent harp wannabes listen to actual recordings and see if you have any trouble hearing or identifying the harmonica. I also recommend amateurs let the pros do their job. That goes for amateur sound technicians and engineers too. If you don't like that advice, simply ignore it.
Last Edited by on Sep 14, 2009 8:41 AM
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kudzurunner
685 posts
Sep 14, 2009
8:47 AM
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Your humble moderator would like to encourage all parties here to make sure we stay civil. Honest disagreements, strongly expressed, are just fine. Diplomats call that "a frank and honest exchange."
Actually, when diplomats use that phrase, they usually mean people were yelling and making threats. They softpedal that reality by using diplomatic language when they describe things after the fact.
Hmmmm.........
So on second thought, let's just keep things reasonably civil. A good rule of thumb: if you were sitting in a bar with the person having this discussion, would you phrase things the same way? (This is the infamous "beer diplomacy" test.)
Last Edited by on Sep 14, 2009 8:48 AM
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sgsax
7 posts
Sep 14, 2009
11:01 AM
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AJ, I liked the sample. My brain was telling me I was hearing alto sax at first, until I reminded it it was harp. At which point it told me to shut up and asked "Where's the beer?". Since this is a "rough draft", there's not a lot to comment on. You seem to have a nice sound that voices well with the guitar and bass. Like buddha said, a little vibrato will go a long way in helping cover up intonation flaws. So will a touch of reverb, even in an acoustic setting.
As for what I like in music: anything that moves me. If I hear a record or watch somebody live and the music sounds like it's pouring out of their soul, *that's( what I like. The raw emotion that translates into what they are playing. Whether it's Pink Floyd, Sonny Rollins, or Jason Ricci, if it sounds like it's moving the performer, it moves me. That's when I crank up the volume and wait a little longer in the driveway before shutting off the car.
My advice would be to try to find an engineer who has a really good ear for music in general, but will also listen to you and accommodate you as the expert on your instrument. Most engineers will be really jaded, especially if they are independent, as they have to listen to a lot of crap. There gut reaction will be to blow you off. But if you sound and act like you know what the hell you are doing and still give him the respect his ego needs (he is doing you a favor, after all), chances are he'll work with you and help you get what you want and need.
I'm lucky. There aren't too many studios in my area, but my band has found one that has a great guy behind the board and has helped us to sound great while taking our (mostly) reasonable demands into account. We're not pros, by any means, but he makes us sound pretty dang good.
Good luck on the project!
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kudzurunner
686 posts
Sep 14, 2009
12:04 PM
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AJ:
I love the clip! You're definitely making it new. I wish more harp players were moving in this direction. (Maybe they are and I just don't know it.)
Chris is right about the harp being miked too hot, especially at 3:15. Was there a limiter on the harp channel? If not, there should have been; what I hear is some over-saturation at those key moments.
The harp track is also very dry; some good, subtle studio reverb would sweeten what you've got here in a beautiful way. But I believe you'll want to re-record this.
Your musicality is wonderful. You leave space very effectively, sculpting musical phrases in a way that allows the listener to feel an emotion. You're not just noodling; nor are you just blowing hard.
It's possible that there's a slightly jarring increase in intensity between the soft-ish playing of the first couple of minutes and the moment when you suddenly stomp down. If you had a slightly more compressed signal, that would eliminate this.
You've certainly got the musicality needed to pull off this sort of harp instrumental. All the technical concerns that I've raised are, in that context, merely secondary. They're just a way of better serving the music that you've got in you.
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PT
15 posts
Sep 14, 2009
8:40 PM
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I feel compelled to add my 2 cents worth. You can not and I repeat can not screw up a great performance. Two examples of this would be the original version of "Gimme Some Lovin" with Steve Winwood & "Green Onions" by Booker T and the MGs. Those are two of poorest recorded and mixed records I have ever heard, but also two of best grooves and performances ever captured. Yeah, the right mic and outboard gear and plug-ins are all great but you can only polish a turd so much before it falls apart. Make sure your ready to record and perform before you spin up the hard drives.
Just my 2 cents
PT Gazell
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"Life...10 Holes & 20 Reeds At A Time"
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asilve3
22 posts
Sep 15, 2009
9:48 AM
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Adam thank you so much for taking the time to respond and offer your advise. I will think of it often as I continue through this process. It is truly gratifying for me to know you like my simple song. I will indeed be rerecording this with other musicians and in a pro setting in the coming months.
Sgsax: I'm glad you enjoyed it as well! I have to agree with you that the great performances come from the artists who seem to really mean it. Pink Floyd is a great example of a group who's music has very powerful intrinsic qualities. They are not flashy but the conviction with which they perform their music makes it so compelling.
Congraron: I just wanted to make clear that my opinions actually do not differ very much from Buddha's own. I have a great deal of respect for his ideas. When I head into the studio it will be very useful to present that information to my engineer. So thank you Chris for that!
Last Edited by on Sep 15, 2009 9:50 AM
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congaron
132 posts
Sep 15, 2009
10:28 AM
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Good luck with your first album. To be clear, my opinions on where a solo instrument belongs in the mix when soloing are no different either.
When you present these ideas to an engineer and how you do it will have the biggest impact on the outcome of your album. The attitude you carry into the studio is all I was trying to get you to think about (positive, remember?) Everybody has an opinion. It is really all up to you in the end. Good luck.
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asilve3
23 posts
Sep 15, 2009
10:36 AM
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That's good advise!
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Buddha
999 posts
Sep 15, 2009
10:38 AM
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reality = positive AND negative any other way is only half the story.
be real to yourself and others.
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
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