Preston
513 posts
Oct 01, 2009
7:05 AM
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So there I was setting in my basement with my Brother-in-law. He's a guitar player. Not the greatest, but does pretty good at what I would call "campfire country chord progressions." Don't know how other to describe his playing to you.
Anyway, we were just drinking beer and messin around. I would ask what his chord progression would be and I would do some very basic harpin'. Just single notes trying to outline his chords. Basically just hanging out on the 1st, 3rd, and 5th trying to creat a little melody.
So then he tells me he would like to learn the blues. I said, O.K. Lets' start with a basic boogie-woogie, 12 bar progression.
He gives me the deer in the headlight look.
So then I proceed to tell him 4 bars of the I, 2 bars of the IV, etc, etc.
Still deer in headlights.
So I just decide to notate the whole thing out for the I chord in the key of E, and then I tell him, now just play the same scale pattern in the key of A for the IV Chord.
"Scale pattern?"
This guy doesn't have a clue about basic chord progressions, how to build scales or even the notes that make up the chords he's playing. So I asked him how do you play guitar. He said he just learned all the chord patterns and then looked up on the internet guitar chords, tabs, and strumming patterns for his favorite songs. As far as improvisation, he just plays what sounds good to him.
I guess if it works for him that's great, but it drives me bat shit not knowing the technical side or the "why".
Now I'm listening to Buddha say to get away from the technical stuff so real music can be made.
Thoughts?
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tookatooka
576 posts
Oct 01, 2009
7:32 AM
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Know what you mean Preston. I'm naturally inquisitive too in that I want to know what makes things work. I came to music only in the last two years and tried to apply my scientific background training to my learning. You know, something that vibrates at 440 times per second will produce a note of A. Why aren't the periods between notes a constant measure. e.g. C=
261.626 hertz D = 293.665 hertz E = 329.628 hertz blah, blah, blah. And I just ended up confusing myself and instead of playing harp I was playing with the maths behind it all and it wasn't very satisfying or helpful. I know in order to get the best out of the harp some theory is useful but really I'd like my harp playing to be more intuitive. I'd like to get into the position where I can play harp as easily as I can whistle. I didn't need to learn any theory in order to whistle, it's just intuitive. Luckily I'm a lone player so don't need to communicate the key to anyone else. I guess it's a different ballgame if you play with someone else and need to discuss these things.
I guess if you were to ask the old masters how they did something, they'd just say I put the harp to my mouth and just blew and sucked man. The theory probably wasn't there because they too would have learnt intuitively. Maybe?
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scottb
52 posts
Oct 01, 2009
7:39 AM
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I think it works both ways. Some people (like me) can learn an instrument technically and know theory and apply it with some success but lack "the gift."
As a child Erroll Garner's (he wrote the jazz classic Misty and is considered one the the geniuses of jazz piano) teacher refused to teach him theory or even how to read music because he didn't want to hinder Erroll's gift.
I think most people need to learn theory, and if you read enough of Buddha's posts you know he supports a good theoretical base but you learn it to forget it. You know it but you can't let it get in the way of creative expreesion and exploration.
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tookatooka
577 posts
Oct 01, 2009
7:57 AM
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Sounds like Picasso, he was forced to learn classical draughting and painting methods. He was excellent but hated every minute of it. He started to paint with the niavety of an innocent child just as soon as he could and produced some of the most striking art images of the twentieth century.
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mr_so&so
220 posts
Oct 01, 2009
8:30 AM
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For me, I need to know enough theory to get if off my mind. If I have enough of a firm foundation to stand on, then I can explore. Theory also makes exploration easier, I can quickly confirm why something works or doesn't. This makes me feel secure. I'm still a long way from making spontaneous music, but I continue to surprise and delight myself when I stumble in that direction.
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phogi
47 posts
Oct 01, 2009
8:34 AM
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I'm not a fan of the 'just feel it' approach.
Don't get me wrong. You have to feel it to make it sound good.
But if you just do 'what feels right' and don't think about chords you are missing out on some powerfully expressive elements in music.
Most of the 'just feel it' musicians I know are not very good. They especially have a hard time playing with other musicians. And most of the pros that say 'just feel it' may, very simply, not be good at decribing what they do. Or, it might not serve their interest to do so.
On the flip side, if you let theory dictate your playing, you will have a hard time being creative.
I think the key is to decide the level that serves your needs. At a minimum you need to know how to fit into changes. That does take theory. So many people think of theory as some crazy complex thing, but its not. Playing without any knowledge of chords is like playing football when you don't know the rules. Fun? sure. Fun to watch? probably not.
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harmonicanick
395 posts
Oct 01, 2009
10:01 AM
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I am a total fan of the 'just feel it' approach and you are right phogi in that I am not good at describing what I play, and I don't care! I hope that does not come across as being smug, but I am not comfortable with tabbing or copying other players.
I have paid my dues and I play any style any key and just try to enhance the groove through my understanding of the rythym and feel of that moment in time.
My wife says to me 'you cant read music and that sucks'
I was a pro drummer in the '70s and took up harp at the same time. I stopped playing drums but carried on with the smaller item.
After 40 years I still play instinctively and have fun, fun to watch? well I'm old and not pretty, but good to listen to? probably!
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Jim Rumbaugh
93 posts
Oct 01, 2009
10:47 AM
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I can see both sides. There are those musicians that go by animal instinct and get it right and get it good, but they are ussually a one trick show. They can only do one style.
I needed some help and guidance. I owned a harp for 3 years before someone put me on the right path. I remember saying, "It doesn't matter how much I blow, it doesn't sound like the blues" I've learned a few things and it has helped.
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nacoran
208 posts
Oct 01, 2009
10:51 AM
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I took some theory way back before I had ever even thought about playing harmonica. I don't remember a lot of it but it's very useful if you are trying to do something specific. It teaches you how to switch from blues to pop to classical. Sometimes you have an idea in your head. When you can't find a note for that spot in your riff sometimes theory can save your butt, particularly if you are going for a specific sound. Want to make something sound futuristic? Put big gaps in it (like the Star Trek theme). In the mood for Celtic? Play lots of fast runs.
As a gag song I keep planning on figuring out how to play 'Row Row Row Your Boat' as a round with myself with tongue blocking. (I'm not sure it can be done, since I haven't figured out if the draws and blows work out. It could be done on an all blow harp for sure.) I suppose I could just try it by ear, but writing out the notes is a lot faster (at least it would be if I was in practice.) Of course, most people would just use a loop pedal. You might even be able to do it with a long enough delay.
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Andrew
639 posts
Oct 02, 2009
8:49 AM
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Woah, Tooka! I'm not letting you get away with that summary of Picasso. More when I get home tonight!
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scstrickland
269 posts
Oct 02, 2009
12:36 PM
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Tooka, I disagree with your Picasso analogy. I agree with your story but feel the quality of his art went down hill. After cubism, He basically abandoned all artistic skill and became an Abstract Expressionist (long before there was such a thing) who valued process over product. I know I'm going to catch flack for this belief, but I think his later works lacked soul. I'm not saying he was not an artistic genius, but the second half of his life, I feel he rode on his reputation rather than his artistic skills.
Last Edited by on Oct 02, 2009 12:37 PM
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Andrew
641 posts
Oct 02, 2009
1:28 PM
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Sigh, educating you would take too long. I'm doing something more important right now - I'm watching Caddyshack II.
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Shredder
5 posts
Oct 02, 2009
3:39 PM
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Preston,
I have very little theory schooling but do understand a lot of it. I can communicate to other musicians about 3 chord progressions and keys, I play guitar some but not very good.
I am self taught on how to play the harp, I feel it's a gift Iv'e been given. I did read in one of Ginditches books about some technequics that opened up some windows for me. Still I didn't have Y/T to watch and didn't have a soul to talk with or ask questions. My dad gave me a harp when I was 12 or so and said here you go, the guy in the music store said this key was popular with country music.The Hohner blues harp had tabs for Red River Vally and thats where it started. I can't remember where I actually was informed of 1st position and 2nd position, maybe around 17 or so.Tounge blocking or lip persing,what the hell is that? I did what worked and felt natural. I'm 50 now. All I did was listen to any thing that had harp in it from Zepplen to Charlie McCoy and try to mimmick it. I think that's when I finally figured out about cross harp but didn't know what to call it.
I play from the heart and try to be creative. No offence these guys that quote all these 5th's and 7th's and the relative to the minor stuff is way over my head but I'm glad some one under stands it.
I havn't found a musician that I can't play with yet.
I guess the jist of this ramble is to say if you under stand the tech. side thats great but if you don't just do what feels right and comes from the heart, you will have your own personal style and twist and that's what makes playing harp so great. I like the fact that I don't have to follow most of the rules the other instruments have to. I can mingle in and out of the music as I see fit and it still sounds good.
Playing from the heart, Mike
Last Edited by on Oct 02, 2009 3:45 PM
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Leanground
84 posts
Oct 02, 2009
5:02 PM
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I don't have the capacity for the technical side at all. I wish I did and I admire all of you who are so clear about it all.... I play by feel completely and fortunately have a sense of time and love of the moment otherwise I'd be holed up in my painting studio
without the balance playing the harp gives my life.
Just like in painting there seems to be room for all of us
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phogi
54 posts
Oct 02, 2009
9:03 PM
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Man, I'm tellin y'all, its not above your head...
Though will say one problem when people describe theory is that they often try to impress with their knowledge. I've been guilty of that before. This hinders understanding.
Starting point: Learn the note names of every note you can play on one harp.
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Andrew
642 posts
Oct 03, 2009
1:53 AM
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Leanground, it's more likely that you've just had shitty teachers.
There are a lot of people on this forum who talk confidently, but it doesn't mean what they say is right. I read a lot of crap on here that I can't be bothered to criticise. I am not referring to anyone on this particular thread - I'm just referring to this forum in general.
I talk shit confidently about other things, I admit it, but when I talk about theory I stick to what I know, and I try not to overstep my limits.
There seem to be two concepts of "theory" on this forum generally - one is "what's a tonic, what's a dominant, what's a fourth what's a fifth? What does diminished mean?"
The other idea of "theory" here is that there's a vast amount of mathematics involved in harp playing and that your harp needs to be more carefully tuned than a laser interferometer on a space station.
Musical joke:
"How do you make a bassist cry?"
"Detune one of his strings and don't tell him which one"
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wheezer
104 posts
Oct 03, 2009
2:01 AM
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Andrew, I like that!
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congaron
158 posts
Oct 03, 2009
10:40 AM
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I have a friend who makes radio commercials and invited us over to jam in his home studio. We had a blast and decided to ask him if he'd like to play keys in our band. He came to practice and I noticed he didn't have the book of lead sheets open. Then our guitar player asked him to play an A so he could tune his A string after he broke one. The guy just looked at him with a blank stare. He didn't know ANY of the notes by letter! He didn't know ANY of the chords by name! He played by ear and was self taught. He knows no theory whatsoever..just what sounds right. He's like the kid in deliverance except on a keyboard..he also plays guitar. He plays both well enough to be in a band IF you give him a cd of what you play first. Very, very weird to me and he sells plenty of radio commercials locally with just him playing everything using midi as well. Go figure. He is not in my band, BTW. We jam beyond his ability to do it by ear. He doesn't have the time to practice enough to get that familiar with what we do, but I bet he could.
Last Edited by on Oct 03, 2009 10:44 AM
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Leanground
85 posts
Oct 03, 2009
10:54 AM
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Andrew I have an excellent teacher who educates me by example...he plays something to me and I figure out how to play it back.
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phogi
60 posts
Oct 03, 2009
1:48 PM
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Andrew - Amen. You are not the only one who sees it. Though, to be honest I've seen it at its funniest when someone is talking about poetic meter, in meter, telling others they don't know about meter, and yet they are wrong about the type of meter they are using.
That's funny no matter who you are.
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