Buddha
1090 posts
Oct 18, 2009
9:26 AM
|
OK guys, yeah I know the title is overly dramatic but, I have decided it's time to sing. Just about all of the great musicians I have met tell me, they know I can sing but am too self conscious. I don't disagree with that.
I was playing last night and it was requested that we sing happy birthday rather than do an instrumental version. I lead the singing and the bassist is convince that I should start singing. I totally respect the bass player's opinion as he's toured extensively with two of the greatest singer/performers in history (Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson)
So, to those that sing, how do I get started with this? Vocal lessons? Just start singing? I dunno, so I humbly submit myself to those that really know how to sing...
----------
~Buddha
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
|
Elwood
173 posts
Oct 18, 2009
9:35 AM
|
Unfortunately I can't help, but the juxtaposition of subject line and original poster was such a shock that I couldn't *not* post here.
If you've got the natural talent, which appears to be the case, a few lessons probably couldn't hurt to orientate yourself. I hazard a guess that it'll mirror some of what you teach: student needs to learn how to care for his instrument, how to get the most out of it, how to approach a practise regime, etc etc...
Sounds like fun. Good luck!
|
Kingley
447 posts
Oct 18, 2009
9:35 AM
|
I would say do both Chris.
Just start as it'll take a little while to get used to switching from harp to vocals and back again and keeping in pitch.
Take lessons, because like anything else in life a good coach will stop you developing bad habits and straining or damaging your voice.
Also the breathing techniques that a vocal coach teaches can improve your harp playing too (not that you really need that though!).
|
Bb
92 posts
Oct 18, 2009
9:49 AM
|
If it's mostly a confidence thing you gotta take the steps it take you to gain confidence and eventually JUST NUT UP.
I'm back to fronting a bar band again. Been doing it for a year now after about a 17 year layoff. What I needed to do was insist on a few rehearsals with the guys to be sure I wasn't going to make a fool of myself in front of a crowd. The approval of the small group of musicians (Yeah man, you can sing and the harp sounds real good.)was enough to make me realize that I'd certainly cut it in front of a bunch of drunk MFs.
Now, if you're talking about REALLY SINGING, it's gonna take lessons.
Get your boys together for a practice and sing, Chris.
-Bob
Last Edited by on Oct 18, 2009 10:15 AM
|
DevonTom
23 posts
Oct 18, 2009
10:01 AM
|
If you get singing lessons, make sure you like your teachers voice. If you get a tattoo make sure you,etc... Yes, start singing Chris!! I have been singing for twenty years now. It is like harp playing, you have favorite singers and you try to emulate them and eventually realize you have a different voice/ instrument than them, but in trying you find your own voice. A lot of Jazz and Blues singers use their voices in a way that a 'singing instructor' would tell you not to do. Go Chris!
|
dfwdlg
70 posts
Oct 18, 2009
10:12 AM
|
I struggle with this too, but my observations include:
- Picking the right songs makes a big difference. Find some you know you sound good on and build confidence from there. If you are writing your own stuff, keep trying different things until you find what sounds good and at the same is effortless.
- If you are serious for the long haul, take lessons.
- When you sing, put it out there. If you are at all timid, it will limit your performance.
|
SUNDOG
72 posts
Oct 18, 2009
10:31 AM
|
Your harp is the vehicle instead of your voice when you are playig..... Your voice is the vehicle when you're singing. it all comes from your heart if you play with feeling. like in driving, you go where you are looking. Singing is going where you are thinking and feeeling .... and repetition just makes you smoother. I am always impressed when singers sing without the words in front of them to back them up... This allows eye contact with the audience. When you sing to them they will forgive little flaws. Half of knowing what you are doing ....is Acting like you know what you are doing so all one has to do is take care of the other 50%. BTW I know I'm half right.
Last Edited by on Oct 18, 2009 10:35 AM
|
phogi
93 posts
Oct 18, 2009
10:39 AM
|
I thought I could not sing until I was forced to. I sang in a choir at first, and then took a semester of voice lessons from an opera singer. I was also in a frat that sang barbershop music. All the while I was still very reserved. Later, I sang in a local SEBSQUA barbershop group. They gave me alot of advice, and let me practice singing baritone. Barbershop was cool for learning to sing because I could do it in a group. Then, a few months ago someone told me I needed to sing if I was gonna be a harp player. So, I went to an open mic, sang a meek version of 'help me,' wobbling at the knees because I'd never sang into a mic. After that, confidence was not a problem, just had to get it out of my system.
More later... gatta go.
|
nacoran
256 posts
Oct 18, 2009
12:20 PM
|
Memorize the words to several songs. It sounds basic but the more songs you know cold the better. Listen to your voice, both literally and figuratively; the sound, and how it feels. Don't push it too hard. I blew out my voice in my Nirvana stage and for years after I had throat problems. I started singing in choir. It was reassuring to have other people singing the same part, but you can get the same thing by singing along with a car radio. After you've got the song down, sing it without the vocal tracks (karaoke anyone?). Singing backup out in public is a good way to build up your confidence.
Just like with a harmonica, the better you know the song the easier it is to improvise and add frills and trills. Warm up before singing in public, the top and the bottom of the range especially.
You may want to start at the bottom again, as it were. You may have more confidence singing at practice, then maybe a small open mic where you aren't a known quantity. Since you have lots of stage experience you should be able to get your legs under you pretty quickly.
And if you ever question yourself, listen to Bob Dylan. I a man with that voice can make it you can.
|
snakes
371 posts
Oct 18, 2009
12:45 PM
|
Singing is what I mainly am aspiring to master despite my passion for the harp and here are my suggestions.
1. Get lessons.
2. Be prepared to invest practice time as it is like anything music oriented and will require regular practice.
3. Start by learning how to breath (you probably are already most of the way there), then work on tone, then work on projection, then work on stretching your vocal range, then work on singing through your mask.
4. Make sure you pick a vocal teacher that is good enough to train your voice as well as be a vocal coach. When I say vocal coach I mean someone who will work with you on specific songs and coach your tonality, etc.
5. Get out and sing in front of people no matter where your skill level is at. This will foster confidence. Expect to do good and bad and roll with the fluctuations in your performance. Take it as part of establishing your learning curve.
Apologies if this insults your intelligence in anyway as I'm just getting the drill down myself, but I thought I'd share what I've learned so far.
Last Edited by on Oct 18, 2009 12:49 PM
|
snakes
372 posts
Oct 18, 2009
12:48 PM
|
Oh yeah, I almost forgot something very important. Make sure to pick songs to sing during live performances that match your vocal potential. The right or wrong song can make all the difference in the world. During practice be as wild as you want, but when you perform for people make sure to set yourself up for success by having something that fits your voice.
|
jbone
171 posts
Oct 19, 2009
4:07 AM
|
kingley and snakes said it all.
i started singing out of necessity when the "good" singer left my first band, leaving the "bad" singer, who had heart but not vocal cords worth working.
in the beginning- 2 rehearsals before our next gig- i learned 4 or 5 songs with the band. dynamics was a word i didn't know. when we did that gig and several after it, i made up in enthusiasm what i didn't know about or didn't have the skill for yet. enthusiasm and volume. a caution: singing too hard is like blowing harp too hard, damage will happen! i was blowing out my voice after maybe 2 sets.
even after i had gotten on track with a voice teacher and learned exercises to do to keep limber, my former bad habits intruded, and i found myself 12-13 years later having some of the same problems singing. part of why it was happening was i was just too keyed up and when you're in that frame of mind, your throat and mouth can't relax and give your air column the outlet it needs to be resonant.
singing at open mic nights was key to developing my voice, finding my good keys and songs that i got along with. these days i can definitely turn heads when i address the vocal mic. seldom have i been the only singer for a night's music, but the times this has happened i have been somewhat challenged both by material and stamina. i like to be one of 2 or 3 singers if we're doing a full night.
in a previous band i booked us a friday night, a saturday afternoon, and a saturday night. there were two of us singers. i made it through all 3 gigs but sunday mnorning i had NO vboice left. may have been a good thing, i got a call that later turned out to be an offer of a sunday afternoon gig! i couldn't even speak enough to talk on the phone except in a whisper.
there was no lasting damage to my voice after that weekend but i don't recommend it to anyone unless they are really in tune with what their voice can do and they take care of it.
room temp water, maybe with lemon, is best for keeping hydrated at gigs. breathing and voice exercises before hitting stage are very desirable at least until one finds one's vocal center and learns to access it.
these days i sing in the duo, which is fairly low pressure. we're very relaxed about it and have chosen our songs well for our own voices. but it was definitely a process.
i tip my hat to you as with anyone who decides to pursue vocals.
|
mickil
568 posts
Oct 19, 2009
4:26 AM
|
I do sing quite a bit, but it's hard to add to what the other fellas have said.
dfwdlg's comment: 'When you sing, put it out there. If you are at all timid, it will limit your performance.' True, true and true. It's a bit like singing opera: you have to immerse yourself in the part. The top end of my range is sometimes limited by my confidence on the day.
Apart from what the others have said, all I can add is always think about how much breath you're going to need for the next phrase, relax and draw it in deep. Oh yeah, and relax your throat when you let it out.
----------
YouTube SlimHarpMick
|
toddlgreene
47 posts
Oct 19, 2009
5:09 AM
|
Welcome to the spotlight! Good advice above thusfar. Vocal fitness and preparation can't be emphasized enough! Unfortunately, the nature of most gigs that are in bars(unless you're in a state that has prohibited smoking)include three of the biggest enemies of the singing voice, in no particular order:smoke, alcohol(although many may tout the 'liquid courage' benefit, it's a no-no with me)and high volume levels in clubs that have you screaming to talk before or between sets. Yes, a good teacher is key, and there are some cd/dvd/book sets available that have some great exercises for vocal fitness and technique. I used to have one called Singing for the Stars, which is the Seth Riggs method. I got some good use out of it. The most important part of singing, and sometimes the most difficult, is finding your OWN voice, and not trying too hard to mimic others. Also, experiment by singing scales to determine which key or keys you most comfortably sing in, and try not to deviate from this too much. Let the instruments transpose to YOU. You know how easy it is to grab a different harp key to suit the music, but the human voice has limitations. Playing with other musicians who recognize that is a good help, too. Once you're comfortable singing acoustically, then you can move on to mic techniques. There's dos and don'ts here, just like in playing harp amplified. We're here to help-just ask! Good luck in your quest.
----------
Crescent City Harmonica Club
www.myspace.com/harpboytodd
www.myspace.com/crescentcityharmonicaclub
www.myspace.com/am540
|
kudzurunner
746 posts
Oct 19, 2009
5:18 AM
|
Start by finding a couple of songs, in the form of a couple of recorded performances, that you really love and WANT to sing. Make sure that their content matches up with who you are. (Don't sing "Hoochie Coochie Man" unless you're a playa/pimp.) Model your voice, as least at first, on the melodic line that is actually sung by whomever is on the recording. Your ears are good enough that you'll be able to decode 95% right away, but I've found that it's that last 5% that makes things interesting--the pitch-choices and timing choices (i.e., swing, syncopation, etc.)--and that challenges me to grow.
I've never really gotten beyond those first two songs, "Sweet Home Chicago" (Junior Parker's version) and "Gone to Main Street" (Muddy's version) but when raised the key on the latter song, I began to find my own voice.
|
Buddha
1091 posts
Oct 19, 2009
5:24 AM
|
my biggest problem is in listening to other singers. I have a really hard time hearing words, it's all tone and pitch to me. I hear tones and see colors in my head.
Once I have the lyrics it helps but otherwise, I'm like, what language is this? Its almost like I can't understand english when music is happening.
----------
~Buddha
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
|
toddlgreene
48 posts
Oct 19, 2009
5:29 AM
|
I thought I was the only one with that problem, Buddha! Unless the lyrics are absolutely riveting, I too get caught up in the melody. That said, 'scatting' jazz-style is a really cool-and possibly lower pressure-way to get into singing. Concentrate on the melody in your head, and sing clear, well-annunciated nonsense(skibby ba boo bo da dee, so on and so forth). Try interjecting that into a song in a place where a solo might otherwise fit...crowds dig it(as long as your pitch is true!)
----------
Crescent City Harmonica Club
www.myspace.com/harpboytodd
www.myspace.com/crescentcityharmonicaclub
www.myspace.com/am540
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2009 5:31 AM
|
wallyns10
33 posts
Oct 19, 2009
5:57 AM
|
You need a vocal coach/ voice teacher that is a man, and it helps if he is in your vocal range. Now try and make sure they are a good teacher (common sense?) because there are so many bad habits you can develop from bad teachers. I don't know your musical prefrences Buhdda, but it would help a LOT if you like/ appreciate classical type music. If not, your probably gonna have to hold your nose through a lot of lessons. It really is important to singing in my opinion. Look at the repertoire you will build as like lifting weights. Everything you do will help in all facets of singing. Just because you sing Carro Mio Ben with particular technique for a voice recital doesn't mean that you will be singing with that same style in the bar on friday night. But the technique you learn singing Carro Mio Ben will in time give you much more control and latitude in the bar on friday night. At the same time...sing songs that you like and know. Basically just sing everything you can whenever you can. You have to have fun with it, not just all toil and sweat.
You have to think of your voice as any other instrument, it requires time and practice in order to develop. Don't get discouraged if you have poor tone or sound nasily or something like that. They way we hear ourselves is totally different than the way others hear us, and the voice is the most complex instrument to really harness. It just takes time and practice.
Regarding confidence: When I was younger I was VERY self-concious about my singing. The more you practice singing, the better you hear yourself become and this will lead to confidence boosts. This doesn't ALWAYS work, so I find that sometimes before I sing I kind of work myself into a frenzy of indifference as to what people will think. Don't think about how people are going to react to you voice, think about how YOU are gonna MAKE them react with your voice. I have a mantra that I'm going to give to you that helps me a lot: "f*ck 'em with your art!"
|
wallyns10
34 posts
Oct 19, 2009
6:01 AM
|
Text is huge to singing. The whole point is to get a message across. One thing that will help is to do you best to really believe what you are singing...you need emotion in singing as much or more than you do playing harmonica
|
mickil
569 posts
Oct 19, 2009
6:34 AM
|
Buddha,
As for lyrics, I don't worry too much about what's on the original. When I do Got My Mojo Working, I sing something like:
Went down to London town
Just to see what I could see
And every girl I met
You know, she wants to talk to me
I got my mojo working, etc
It's not Keats, and the grammar is appalling. But, it's more credible than singing about 'going down to Louisianna' when you live in South East London.
The Blues, being a folk tradition, gives you the latitude to adapt the lyrics as you see fit.
----------
YouTube SlimHarpMick
|
XHarp
202 posts
Oct 19, 2009
7:22 AM
|
Buddha,
I started singing for about the same reason. I had to get at it because noone else would.
Best suggestion - Get a Vocal Coach.
I was thrown to the wolves and I still don't think I can sing worth a damn so I'd say your best bet would be to get a Vocal Coach.
The thing is, that most people can sing but are self concious of the criticism if the crowd thinks otherwise. Its funny, most are OK with making a mistake on the instrument but not on their voice, so I'd say get a Vocal Coach.
Bye the way, did I mention that you should get a Vocal Coach?
----------
"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
|
Buddha
1092 posts
Oct 19, 2009
8:43 AM
|
I'm not going to be a blues singer. I'm much more into R&B than anything else these days.
----------
~Buddha
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
|
sgsax
11 posts
Oct 19, 2009
11:28 AM
|
I'd hazard a guess that you don't need many tips regarding mechanics. Pretty much everything you do regarding breath support and control on harp is the same for voice. Keep everything open in the oral cavity and support the air from your diaphragm. If you close off the back of your throat, it pinches off the sound and can hurt your vocal chords if pushed too hard. A lesson or two from a vocal coach should be enough if your case to get you started on basic principles and practice.
Know your range (the notes you can sing comfortably) and try to pick songs and keys that fit (at least mostly) in that range. Once you've been singing for a while, you can work to extend that range. Unfortunately, a lot of rock and R&B tunes are in the upper baritone to tenor range, so for myself as a bass to middle baritone, I end up pushing quite a bit by the end of the night. If you have a really good band that can be flexible with keys and transposing when necessary, try to get the tunes down into a range where you won't hurt yourself. Too low a key, and your voice won't project enough. Too high, and you risk overextending yourself.
As for learning lyrics, I put new songs to learn on a CD and listen to them over and over again while driving, singing along. This is where recording your band practices comes in handy, if you're working on original material. Sometimes, it helps to look up lyrics up on the web for those that are more difficult to understand (I never would have gotten the words to La Grange without looking them up). If you listen to a lot of different renditions of songs, you will hear lots of variation in the words that are actually used. I like to pick and choose the ones that I like best in this case. I feel like doing this also personalizes to me and makes it more of a unique performance. Really, this just takes drill and practice to get the words down.
My band is up to 40+ tunes in our book right now. When we pull one out that we haven't done in a while, it sometimes takes a couple of runs through to get it back into my head. I also keep a book of just lyrics for all of these plus a bunch more that I like for future use. They're printed in a big, plain typeface, so if I get stuck at a gig, I can open the book for a refresher if I need it. No shame in a teleprompter if you need it. I hear Billy Joel still uses one.
The better you know the words, the easier it is for you to add your own inflection. If you aren't worrying about the next line or verse, you can focus on the music and making the words your own. My only other recommendation is to sing like you should play: from the gut. I think any performer needs to show me that they're feeling what they're playing or singing. You can have all the chops in the world, but if you stand up there like a stick in the mud, I'm not going to be impressed. You need to show me that you've got soul.
Enough rambling for me...
Seth
|
nacoran
259 posts
Oct 19, 2009
12:25 PM
|
Synesthesia? That's pretty rare. Huh. Also, avoid dairy before you sing. Dairy makes you phlemy.
|
BillBailey
29 posts
Oct 19, 2009
2:01 PM
|
Interestingly, savants and folks with various flavors of synesthesia sometimes have commonalities. Not always, not often. Don't mix the two phenoms.
For example, autistic savant Daniel Tammet, can calculate pi to 22,000 decimal places. He sees numbers as shapes and colors and textures. If I recall, he sees the number "two" as a particular motion and the number "five" is a bolt of thunder. I might have that backwards, but you get the idea.
To multiply numbers, he is sees shapes (or movements or textures) that change and merge into perfect answers, which are new shapes, colors and textures that he can discern as numbers.
Sorry to slip into my academic mode, but Tammet is particularly interesting because he can tell us what he sees in his mind (unlike most a. savants). So, we ask, how might ordinary people access this extraordinary ability? He actually has an ep. fit that changed his brain to this remarkable state.
I'll close, but Tammet can multiply three digits times three digits (495 x 996, for example) and obtain an answer instantly, without conscienceness of what he is doing (YET HE CAN TELL YOU HOW HE DID IT!). Tammet's book, "Embracing the Wide Sky" is remarkable and accessible for the laymen. My apologies for wandering off thread. Let's see, where's my b-flat....?
|
Andrew
680 posts
Oct 19, 2009
11:41 PM
|
OK, I've got no real reason to say anything, except that David Hockney is pretty good at playing the faux naive (I think I read two of his autobiographies, or maybe it was only one), and I wouldn't take on board uncritically anything any artist (or any other attention-seeker) says.
----------
Bollocks, Wiglaf!
|
BillBailey
30 posts
Oct 20, 2009
4:51 AM
|
Andrew,
Spot on, mate. Especially with politicians and folks with strong opinions and big egos and hidden insecurities. Filtering the B.S. is always a challenge---in any profession---or open forum.
Bailey's Law: The longer and louder they talk; the less I'm interested.
|
Bluzdude46
235 posts
Oct 20, 2009
7:42 AM
|
Been singing forever Brother and I STILL have trouble remembering lyrics. I'm certain it's the A.D.D. I cheat at times and have the lyrics typed in bold inside the lid of my harp case and in between verses I look at the next verse with new material or songs i'm fumbling with. I do not put up a music stand with sheets of paper. That's tacky. But hell Jerry Garcia used to forget lyrics all the time right up to his last show.
|
wallyns10
37 posts
Oct 20, 2009
7:50 AM
|
Well yea...jerry probably forgot a lot of stuff cus of all the weed, and he really wasn't THAT good of a singer. Don't get me wrong I still semi-worship the guy, but I also agree with the statement about the stand.
|
sopwithcamels266
216 posts
Oct 21, 2009
11:08 AM
|
Man I couln't believe it when I read this post.
As I understand it you use to be a pro muso jazz right?
If that is the case then you know whats required what to do and the numerous ways to approach to suit your needs.
It tells me something that the education in europe must way way higher than USA.
If you can't work it out and sort out your own individual requirements for your self then well frankly it's beyond belief.
Hasn't playing with all those big cats you quote count for anything.
It is not rocket science.Funny really asking for advice from mainly apprentice blues harp folk.
LOL
Good luck I hope you find your answer.
hey the first rule of a pro muso, never listen to advice or critic from band or audience.
You a top pro as well,
.........................
Last Edited by on Oct 21, 2009 11:09 AM
|
Buddha
1094 posts
Oct 21, 2009
12:35 PM
|
SOP,
I know what needs to be done. I just thought I would share my experience and give opportunity for others to help me since I claim to not be here for help.
I'm a professional musician, not a has been or used to be... I just am. ;-p
----------
~Buddha
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
|
Buzadero
186 posts
Oct 21, 2009
12:45 PM
|
I believe that you are approaching this all wrong. You need to get drunk. It makes you a much better singer. Not to mention conversationalist, pickup artist, and dancer. Visit a bar on karaoke night. You'll notice a distinct relationship between alchohol consumption and singing.
Glad I could help.
----------
~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
|
Miles Dewar
414 posts
Oct 22, 2009
8:50 AM
|
I think the singing comes from the "Karaoke Night".........lol
|
lumpy wafflesquirt
114 posts
Oct 22, 2009
12:44 PM
|
I hope you aren't going to use an 'out of the box' voice but are going to customise it first before you start.
:^)
|
nacoran
270 posts
Oct 22, 2009
2:26 PM
|
lumpy, he should probably start on a cheap voice for practice and work his way up to customizing his own voice. As for the alcohol, it might make the customization surgery less painful, but might also impair his skills, so that's a tossup.
|
