sopwithcamels266
222 posts
Oct 30, 2009
10:00 AM
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Most but not all the harp players on this site are on it because they are into the blues right.
Well I have a theory on how to develop blues for the better.
I think it applies to a lot of jazz and other forms of non pop music.
For me the failure ( for now lets stick to blues)the failure of not elevating the profile lies to some extent with the artists themselves. At all levels but starting at the top and working down.
All guys do it, hit the road to get gigs here there and everywhere.That to me is the fundermental mistake.
Like politics, blues has to develop through movements.
Staying in one area collectively developing into your ways of playing the blues.
That way the big cats have to come to your town to get a piece of the action.
To travel with an individual take on thing without developing an in house style is wrong in my view.
Sure individual expression and your own way of doing it for sure but you need to work your own thing in conjunction with retro masters and most importantly the PRESENT.
This is how the music would gain a lift now and again.
It happened in jazz in the 50s and yes happened in blues for sure.
In the modern age folk should look at history and learn from it.
You can't convert the world on your own.
Creating a local scene where artists don't travel that far but their style evolves amongst those around them. Constantly setting and changing the the bench marks at all different levels.
Looking at the world around them at that given moment in time and recording it in this case on the harp.
Thats the only way I see the music retaining a profile and developing in the modern era.
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 10:03 AM
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MrVerylongusername
590 posts
Oct 30, 2009
12:42 PM
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The world of music is like any other art - it is inhabited by conservative purists, a few innovators, a few randoms who refuse to be given a label and an overwhelming majority of folk who just play in the style they like.
True musical revolutions occur when people tear up the rulebook - Bebop, soul, funk, punk, hip hop to name just a few. And they were fuelled by sociological changes - civil rights, the use psychedelics, mass unemployment etc...
In the UK at least, the blues is not going to change. It is largely the domain of white, middle class, middle aged men (like myself) who just want to play the music they like. That is not a position from which progress can be made. Old men don't start revolutions, but that is fine. music doesn't have to be new and evolved to be fun.
We are living in amazing times. In the last 20 years or so, technology has completely redefined what is possible. Only a musical snob would fail to recognise the musical potential of sampling, synthesis, looping, real time processing, pitch correction, digital recording. The purists will argue that sampling isn't real music, and the majority are happily churning out their version of Juke - meanwhile the true innovators are using a new set of tools to create a new kind of music. And if you don't think it's "jazz" or "blues" or any other pigeonhole label - well they don't give a monkeys toss.
Punk exploded because without 'rules' anyone could play anything.
"It was easy, it was cheap, go and do it!" - The Desperate Bicycles.
Hip Hop was born out of club DJs turning record players into musical instruments.
Yes, I concede those subcultures began as localised movements, but they were all in an era when music spread by live performance. Live music is dead. Internet distribution is the future and if the blues is going to evolve it will be on Facebook and youtube. It will be because of people like Son of Dave who embrace the new technology and the musical opportunities it offers. It will be because of a legion of anonymous kids, recording and mixing music in their bedrooms and distributing it online. It will be because of rebels like Jason Ricci who reject the constraints of labels and open their fan's ears to new sounds.
It won't be because a bunch of conservative blues fans try to define "the [insert name of your hometown] Sound"
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sopwithcamels266
223 posts
Oct 30, 2009
12:56 PM
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Mrverylongusername:Totally disagree.If you observe history in anything thats right anything youl understand the fundermental point.
Some just can't see it.You see I'm an optimist with a
solution, your just dead wood.(That game been flogged to death it can't be done by one off egos)
It's the easiest thing in the world to play night after night in a different town. Ask any jazz player there is no challenge there.
I am aiming to produce a solution to an on going situation.
Folk don't like change it takes some understanding
read it again and try and understand real inovation
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 12:57 PM
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MrVerylongusername
591 posts
Oct 30, 2009
1:20 PM
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Dead wood? Thanks! another insult in the face of reasoned argument.
OK. I'm done arguing.
Yeah you're right. You're obviously right on everything. All the time. Clearly the most knowledgeable person on the board. How can anyone disagree with you. You're logical arguments presented so coherently too; with such a careful eye on grammar.
I'm out.
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congaron
217 posts
Oct 30, 2009
1:47 PM
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The popularity of blues festivals indicates to me that the blues needs no armchair quarterbacking. Plenty of folks love it enough to travel all around to hear it, play it, buy it and sell it. I agree, few people care that much about labels or progression of the art form. There's already something in music for everyone. No movement is necessary, other than the one already taking place at its own pace.
Simple,fundamental.
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bluzlvr
257 posts
Oct 30, 2009
2:15 PM
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I get dismayed when I walk into a record store and the blues section is the smallest section there.
My local Fry's used to be a pretty good place to find blues CDs at a reasonable price, but they have eliminated the blues section altogether.
Virtualy every other music form has a section, but not the blues.
I seems to me that the blues gets more respect in Europe and in Asia than it does here in its birthplace, the USofA!
I does cheer me up when I go on YouTube and see some of the young guitar players entered in Guitar Center's King of the Blues contest.
They might be doing anything breathtakingly new, but there is some good young talent out there, keeping the blues alive.
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GermanHarpist
642 posts
Oct 30, 2009
2:19 PM
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Music is always changing. May it be because of an international platform as YT or motivated by your local scene....
And also if you try to conserve the music as it was played 50 years ago. Well, the musical scene around you will change and thus the point of view from which the music is listened too is constantly changing.
Does that make any sense?
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germanharpist on YT.
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GermanHarpist
647 posts
Oct 30, 2009
2:59 PM
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sopwith: you're asking people (in a globalizing world of youtube etc.) to stay in their little towns...?
As I see it, this is working against the trend of the world. You should rather use the potential that is available now (and wasn't back in the 50's) to create something new.
It's a good point... but nowadays..? No, it wouldn't work. The world doesn't work like this any more.
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germanharpist on YT.
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RyanMortos
420 posts
Oct 30, 2009
4:26 PM
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"The popularity of blues festivals indicates to me that the blues needs no armchair quarterbacking." - congaron.
Even though I don't exactly get 'armchair quarterbacking' I believe I'm in agreement. There's plenty of fans of blues & jazz music all over the place.
I think there's a secret(not really?) music industry force that tries to steer sales & the way things are marketed via radio, music television broadcasts, what music shops keep stocked and have out in front, etc. They (the big music corporations that is) want to get rich off of the act they have signed to their label.
I think if/when people open their ears they will find what they truly like and listen to whatever that is regardless if they have the music video of the week or not. An exception to this might be highly persuasive & possibly confused youths. Interesting that the marketing seems to be music for them seeming to almost promise flashy cars, more women, etc if they were more like that music 'group'.
My thoughts open for debate :)
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 4:29 PM
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Aussiesucker
415 posts
Oct 30, 2009
6:55 PM
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This will be one argument that hardly anyone will agree on. Should it be left alone -no. Music is a very very personal thing.
I for one am not what you would consider a bluesman ie I like other genres of music and blues just happens to be a favourite. However, not a lot of people I personally know even like/appreciate/or know anything about blues music. I get my hits visiting sites like this and downloading stuff I like from itunes & listening to it on an ipod.
Some genres of music I loathe but perhaps they should have a place ie be-bop -funk-rap- hip hop etc however I would doubt they will ever achieve much more than a passing fad. I certainly might be wrong but I hope for our sanity that I am right.
If you think about it in maths terms then more than 99% of all good music has already been written and less than 1% of the bad has been written. These percentages are unlikely to ever change. Quantity of music produced , both good and dreadful, will expand exponentially but proportionally 1 in a 10,000 might make it and still the percentages will remain fairly constant.
I tend to agree with Ryan re the marketing of music. I liken a lot of it to being exactly like junk food and people being herded into thinking that it is a must have and it's good for you.
In the end we should all only buy what we like and play what we like but be open to others (but not the rants of the music industry or commercial radio). As we mature our tastes in music mature ie we don't have a lot of time to listen or play rubbish that we hate even if it happens to be popular(ie who says?).
It would be a near impossible task for blues to take over & be the dominant genre. It does however have a pretty solid following and its wider influence (from a blues harp perspective) is very strong in other genres ie country & rock. The only way it can grow and be given wider acceptance is for us to 'sell' our music by exposing more to it. Some, probably most of us, are not technically up to it, or we may simply choose to play for our own fun and enjoyment.
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 9:41 PM
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nacoran
296 posts
Oct 30, 2009
9:30 PM
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I think technology is the future, whether it's some new pedal or effect, better reeds, new tunings. Of course, at some point a new sound becomes a totally new kind of music. I like some of the beat box harmonica stuff I've heard. It hasn't been very bluesy, but it could be. I Longuser is making a point that if we define blues as what blues always has been it will always be what it was.
There are two ways to attack trying to create something different. You can study everything and try different combinations. The problem with this tactic is sometimes you teach yourself patterns that you can't break. The other way is to learn nothing and just throw yourself at the problem. Sometimes this inspires creativity, but you also risk repeating what has already been done.
A lot of the time creativity comes from different ideas bumping up against each other, whether it's different rhythms or scales or different instruments coming together for the first time. It can be people figuring out overblows or amping harps in new ways. It could be loop pedals.
It's great to have a place like this where we can all share and learn about the blues, but it's just as likely the next great innovation will happen when we are out playing with people who are doing something completely different. Personally, I won't be happy until my harmonica shoots laser beams out with each note. :) (Don't laugh, I've actually thought about how to make a harp with LED lights that lit up based on what notes you were playing or putting in some fiber optic effects, ok, it's visual not audio but that's just my idea.)
So, anyone want to give industrial-Celtic-Raggea loops a try?
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 9:48 PM
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jonsparrow
1255 posts
Oct 30, 2009
10:03 PM
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blues music will never be popular again. thats a fact. for music to be popular it will have to be wanted in the clubs, radio, movies, etc... also for it to be popular there will have to be a spokes person. a front man musician that is drop dead sexy. all the guys will want to be him, and all the girls will want to fuck him. that is how the mainstream works now. needless to say its hopeless. the blues will allways have its underground fanbase an we should be happy that we have it as good as we do, with active musicians, an new products still being made. that said, if any one wants to train a dead sexy man to become the next spokesman for the blues, i volunteer myself.
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Tryharp
251 posts
Oct 30, 2009
10:40 PM
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Jon,
I think you hit the nail on the head. It was all logical and made perfect sense......up until the last sentence.
Tryharp
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Tryharp
252 posts
Oct 30, 2009
11:56 PM
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You may well be offended, I was wrong, on further consideration, I think you are the MAN to lead the blues in to the next decade.
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jonsparrow
1257 posts
Oct 31, 2009
12:41 AM
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LOL
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congaron
218 posts
Oct 31, 2009
10:42 AM
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this thread rocks.
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congaron
219 posts
Oct 31, 2009
10:48 AM
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I mean gives me the blues. Ryan, I think we are too. By armchair quarterbacking, I simply meant I won't sit around and think about it and come up with time-consuming ideas to further the industry.
I'm probably a bad example, being a 52 year-old musician who didn't know who Koko Taylor was until six months ago. My roots aren't blues, but I love to sing and play them now that i get it. Life stories make a difference in getting it, too. Maybe the world at large doesn't really get it...maybe they do.
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kudzurunner
755 posts
Oct 31, 2009
11:31 AM
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I think sopwiths original point is a good an interesting one. Of course, blues musicians have always traveled--Honeyboy Edwards was a monster of that, as is B. B. King, as are younger guys today like Jason--but it's also true that in the running world, for example, groups of elite runners congregate in certain specific places (like Mammoth Lakes, California, or certain locations in the Rift Valley of Kenya) and drive each other to new heights, often with the help of one charismatic coach. The beboppers who clustered around Minton's Playhouse are a great example of a whole new movement starting from essentially one location--not isolated (it was in Harlem), but localized.
I don't things like this can be forced, but I'm sure that if half a dozen top players decided to move to a big house in, say, Phoenix, and woodshed and jam for a year, they'd create some very interesting and forward-looking music.
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walterharp
102 posts
Oct 31, 2009
2:39 PM
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It is very unlikely for an old genre like blues or jazz to ever really become popular again, there may be a slight surge of renewed interest, but not a sweeping rush, because that requires something new. It does help to have a single person or band get very popular, I think blues traveler did that for harmonica (though it is not really blues per-se). At this point, if anybody has a chance of breaking out, I think it would be Ricci.. because he is taking old stuff mashing it with new approaches and making it sound new
at this point, blues, jazz, ska, reggae, classical etc. are niche markets and it is unlikely that any will break out and make a big cut into the popular music business
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apskarp
47 posts
Nov 01, 2009
8:25 AM
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I have studied Complexity Sciences for some years - not as a Scientist but rather as practitioner as I work with complex organizations.
I agree with sop that local interaction seems to be the place where cultures are really formed. But it doesn't mean that local interaction has to be "local" in the sense of location. Rather it means that communities - no matter how they are connected - is the place where culture and norms are creted. Also learning happens mostly in the communities, in the local interaction. However, in a complex world we can't really force anything to happen. Instead things are emergent, we can't predict what will rise up as something that will become a big trend. Actually many times it is something very small thing happening in just a few minority local interactions - and then it explodes and becomes a trend instead of the things that are pushed by majority.
So I think that creating communities like this MBH forum or your local blues association is very good thing to build culture and learning for the blues. And if it is just a minor underground thing it has actually better chances to explode as a movement than if it was trend for the majority.
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GermanHarpist
650 posts
Nov 02, 2009
2:28 AM
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word.
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germanharpist on YT.
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phogi
103 posts
Nov 02, 2009
3:17 AM
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The blues will rise and fall over time. Popular music is going to be counrty / pop / hip hop / indie rock for a while. But think of Stevie Ray Vaughn. Making blues popular in the 80s? He was competing against Paula Abdoul (and similar people), just like modern blues competes against Hanna Montana. I think all it takes is quality musicians cranking out quality music.
Oh yeah, it has to be new too. Otherwise people just buy the old records.
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