mr_so&so
230 posts
Nov 06, 2009
11:24 AM
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Now, into my third year of apprenticeship, I have acquired the majority of the techniques. Having been an avid follower of Adam's YTs, lip pursing has been my primary embouchure (except for splits and octaves, obviously).
I have recently put a lot of time into playing tongue blocked, and relearning bends, etc. with that embouchure.
What I'm noticing, as an intermediate player, is that TB-ing is a much easier and effective technique in a lot of ways. It's a faster way to get around the harp; it makes the insertion of double-stops, splits and octaves much more natural; things like warbles seem easier too. I am still working on some TB bends, e.g. getting a 2 draw full bend is harder for me right now, as are the blow bends (and I haven't even tried a TB overblow).
I guess what I'm saying is that what seemed too awkward and unwieldy about TB-ing as a beginner, now seems much easier and relaxed.
Here's something else I've noticed about various YT harp tutorials (other than Adam's): it is rare that the person actually says whether they are tongue blocking or lip pursing. And I'm beginning to suspect that TB-ing is the majority default embouchure.
So my question is, do any of you, my fellow Adam Gussow students/devotees, agree with what I'm saying? What is your current primary embouchure now that you are not a beginner, and what things do you still do the "other" way? I'd also like to hear from you pros out there.
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snakes
394 posts
Nov 06, 2009
11:36 AM
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I am also trying to develop my TB'ing technique and would agree with you. Due to the contact on the harmonica it is much easier to keep track of where I am on the harp. It is harder to bend, though...
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Hobostubs Ashlock
100 posts
Nov 06, 2009
11:45 AM
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I can seee where it might be a more comfortable way to learn tounge blocking.I lip purse but can see trying the tounge block stuff as i get more involled into the harp.Right now it seems really hard to TB and if that was the only way to play i would have gave it up,But by the same token i would like to learn it latter on it seems like for certain things it could be better
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MichaelAndrewLo
40 posts
Nov 06, 2009
12:05 PM
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on my youtube channel www.youtube.com/the5kproject I switched to TB and have found it very good. The overblows and blow bends do not take a very long time to get and overall it seems a more relaxed embouchure because the lip muscles are not flexed tight while playing. Sugar blue plays TB and he plays very fast articulated stuff. Also Hanz chmel i think is his name, he plays chromatic, and plays very fast stuff articulated exclusively with tongue blocking coughs. I can see how somebody would tongue block 100% because of its numerous advantages.
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Shredder
37 posts
Nov 06, 2009
12:11 PM
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When I 1st started back around 1976 the instructions that came with my Hohner had some tabs for "Red River Vally" and it showed the toung blocking tech. of playing so with that said thats the way I started out. Over the years I migarated to lip pursing.That's where I really started to see improvment in my playing ability to really make the harp talk. I still use T/B in certain situations "octives" and some times in the 2nd floor of the harp. I still done't see how some guy's get such a good bend tounge blocking, Iv'e tried but it's just not my thing.
I'm a lip purser 99% of the time.
Mike
Mike
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XHarp
214 posts
Nov 06, 2009
12:37 PM
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I don't subscribe to either way preferring to let the tune and mood decide. I think that you need to learn both methods and use them as you see fit.
I move in and out of both but the lip pursing is indeed still my default.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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walterharp
110 posts
Nov 06, 2009
12:51 PM
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I tongue block when each note needs to be separated very clearly. While it is more difficult to bend notes, it is easier to get a good throat vibrato with the front of the tongue anchored. It seems more important to be able to use it at the top of the harmonica for getting good clean notes.
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kudzurunner
762 posts
Nov 06, 2009
1:27 PM
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Tongue blocking is my default setting when I'm playing octaves and other chords consisting of notes separated by 2 or three unplayed holes.
Lip pursing is my default setting when I'm playing fast single-note runs (with and without overblows) and when I'm bending and warbling.
There are a couple of things where I don't have a default setting. I play the 5 draw, cross harp, tongue blocked sometimes (i.e., blocking the 2, 3, and 4 draw); other times I play it lip pursed.
I don't know any serious overblower whose default setting for playing single note runs with overblows is tongue blocking. I do know that a few hard-core TBers, like Dennis Gruenling, can overblow when tongue-blocking. But the first sentence of this paragraph expresses what I believe to be a valid generalization.
Technical considerations are primary until you're able to make the music you hear in your head using whatever techniques you've got at your disposal; then they truly come to seem secondary. Occasionally players in mid-career find the need to re-tool, to create some new technique in order to shift the grounds of the musical vision a bit. At that point, technique may again need to become a focus--until the vision has been achieved and technique can once again slink back into the shadows as a conscious consideration.
All my best music has been made when I wasn't, at the actual moment of playing, giving the slightest consideration to technique. (Often a drink or two helped, but not always.)
Last Edited by on Nov 06, 2009 1:32 PM
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bluzlvr
263 posts
Nov 06, 2009
1:47 PM
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I'm a default TB'er and I can definitely bend better when TBing.
There's certain things that have to be done lip-pursed, such as the Sonny Terry rhythm and the blow bend so I find myself switching back and forth all the time.
When I'm playing first position on the high notes, I'll often use L.P. to do the blow bends and switch back to TB for the non blow bends.
I still can't get an overblow, try as I might, and it remains the great tragedy in my harmonica playing experience. (Sob!)
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oldwailer
938 posts
Nov 06, 2009
3:53 PM
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Overblows are just for pussies who aren't musical enough to figure out a way around a missing note! (HAW HAW!)
OT--there's no "Versus" here--TB and LP are just two great ways to play harp--I TB a lot of the time--but I find that, if I get to thinking about that--I've already lost the groove. . .
Last Edited by on Nov 06, 2009 3:56 PM
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mickil
601 posts
Nov 06, 2009
4:42 PM
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I've heard the debates and discussions before about TB versusus LP. Yet, I remain a bit baffled as to why one would want to learn to do everything exclusively TB'ed.
The primary argument for its advocates seems to be about the quality of tone. I don't go along with that. Just play a single note - say a 1 draw on a C harp - and mess around with the placement of air in your throat; the variation in tone you can get is enormous. Now add throat vibrato, and see how much easier it is depending on that placement of air in your throat.
Many moons ago, when I was trying to be a piano virtuoso - seriously - it didn't matter a hoot how I got the notes; just getting them seemed to be a super-human accomplishment.
I sometimes wonder whether its the aquisition of this or that technique that becomes more important than the music itself. An obsession, I suppose.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
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Violin Cat
101 posts
Nov 06, 2009
7:03 PM
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Mickil, Your last sentence says a very lot sir! Both embrouchures have pros and cons and both serve different musical purposes. Since the Microcosm always reflects the Macrocosm here is a cool excerpt better explaining my position on subjects such as this and there greater:
"33. I reveal unto you a great mystery. Ye stand between the abyss of height and the abyss of depth.
34. In either awaits you a Companion; and that Companion is Yourself.
35. Ye can have no other Companion.
36. Many have arisen, being wise. They have said "Seek out the glittering Image in the place ever golden, and unite yourselves with It."
37. Many have arisen, being foolish. They have said, "Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world, and be wedded to that Blind Creature of the Slime."
38. I who am beyond Wisdom and Folly, arise and say unto you: achieve both weddings! Unite yourselves with both!
39. Beware, beware, I say, lest ye seek after the one and lose the other!
40. My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells.
41. But since one is naturally attracted to the Angel, another to the Demon, let the first strengthen the lower link, the last attach more firmly to the higher.
42. Thus shall equilibrium become perfect. I will aid my disciples; as fast as they acquire this balanced power and joy so faster will I push them.
43. They shall in their turn speak from this Invisible Throne; their words shall illumine the worlds.
44. They shall be masters of majesty and might; they shall be beautiful and joyous; they shall be clothed with victory and splendour; they shall stand upon the firm foundation; the kingdom shall be theirs; yea, the kingdom shall be theirs.
In the name of the Lord of Initiation. Amen."
-LIBER TZADDI
That pretty much sums it up for me...
Jason
Last Edited by on Nov 06, 2009 7:04 PM
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gmacleod15
17 posts
Nov 06, 2009
7:37 PM
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I have been studying Adams version of Little Walters Blues with a Feeling. Because of this I have graduated to the intermediate level...hold the applause. To play that song and make it sound like LW you have to TB. This is a new technique for me as I have always LPed. I initially found TB unnatural but if I don’t think too much about it and just play it starts to happen. Now TBing is gradually finding it way into all my playing....along with all the other wonderful ways to make this amazing instrument sing.
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GermanHarpist
660 posts
Nov 06, 2009
8:23 PM
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I also slowly start TBing. It gives you a whole new range of technical possibilities... and the skills learned definitely also advance LP playing.
Some harps, especially the lower ones, feel more natural played TB.
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germanharpist on YT.
Last Edited by on Nov 06, 2009 9:27 PM
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Greg Heumann
161 posts
Nov 06, 2009
9:23 PM
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I switch between TB and puckerbecause I can't bend every hole well TB'd. But I can switch from one to the other very quickly. To me, TB is the key to rhythmical punctuation; pulls, slaps, pull-slaps, etc - you can add a LOT of texture while TB'ing.
Another KEY reason I TB when I can is that when playing amplified and looking for FAT tone that comes from full seal cupping, you want every hole you're NOT playing blocked on the front side. I block the holes to the RIGHT with my cheek and thumb; the holes on the left are much harder (for me) to block. I've seen some players who can use thumbs on BOTH ends - but I can't with my hands and still get a good seal below the harp. However ifI can leave holes 1-3,or 1-4 in my mouth, covered with my tongue, then I can get a great seal and FAT tone. When I get up to playing on holes and above I can no longer get a full seal so my higher note tone loses a lot.
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/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
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barbequebob
62 posts
Nov 09, 2009
7:34 AM
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Many players who have started out with the pucker AKA lip blocking method often have a problem at first because one of the very first things they DON'T do is physically relax and too often, they try to force things to happen, which is the WRONG thing to do.
The inside shape of your mouth has to be more wide open to allow for proper movement of the tongue when needed as well as easier air flow throughout all of your air passages, and this is also the very same concept when it comes to singing as well.
A good exercise that comes from taking breathing lessons from a reputable vocal coach is standing in front of a mirror and let out a full, very relaxed yawn, making sure that ALL facial and lip muscles are FULLY relaxed. When you've finished with the yawn, keep your mouth wide open, but again, relaxed, and you should see how considerably wide open your air passages are. Now place the tongue LIGHTLY (and remember this for TB'ing: NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER force your tongue flat on the harp because you will then be playing extremely uptight and that is going to be making everything totally worse by doing that.
With the throat, and entire oral cavity more wide open, you kinda drop the teeth/jaw VERY slightly for the bends and this should be much easier.
Most people who started with the pucker don't create enough space in their mouths for the TB and the bending to happen properly. I started out first as a TB, then went to puckering for the blow bends, and for the past 15 years, I use both, often changing in mid phrase, and I know one very prominent player who does this as well, and that's Kim Wilson.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 2:27 PM
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mickil
610 posts
Nov 09, 2009
8:18 AM
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Bob,
That's one of the most useful posts I think I've ever seen on here. People probably pay good money for that kind of advice.
Many thanks for sharing that.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
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mr_so&so
232 posts
Nov 09, 2009
10:33 AM
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Thanks everyone for excellent comments. I guess it's the hallmark of an apprentice, whether beginner or intermediate, that technical concerns remain in mind. Thanks Adam for reminding me that its the sound that is the goal. I'm still working for the day when I can just play what's in my head, and have it come out exactly the way I want.
I used the word "relaxed" in my post, and wasn't exactly sure why at the time. Michael Lo and BBQBob have both explained what I was noticing, I think. Thanks for that.
I believe that I will eventually end up with a hybrid approach that gets me my best sound. I hope that other apprentices, like me, will not forget to keep going back and experimenting with technique. I think it will pay off. I just checked out Michael's YT channel, mentioned above, and I can see it's working for him.
Thanks again everyone.
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apskarp
52 posts
Nov 10, 2009
11:27 AM
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I use both. I can't do bending as well with TB but I'll manage with it. I too think that it's really not so important what technique is used, but it's the musical expression that matters. As I'm just an advanced intermediate, I have yet work to do before I found my own style. There are some things that I seems to do a lot and they form kind of a style for me, but I don't master the things yet.
In this sense I think that it might be good to try out different techniques as they let you to experiment different things and develop your own sound and style. Currently I can't hear much difference whether I LP or TB. The melodies and other things I do vary regarding what technique I use, but I can get the same sound with LP so it isn't the bread for me in TB. I think slaps, octaves and such things are more of the bread for me in TB. This is why I think I'll change to the technique that fits the song - or part of the song. The inner feeling kinda changes when the technique is changed.
I hope to build my skills in TB as it allows me to express myself in different ways and it also helps to find my own sound and style - but I'm not obsessed with it anymore as a "must have technique" without which I can't advance musically. That's just a form of fanatical obsession. I know people that have played harmonica for decades without even learning to bend as it isn't something that is used in their style of music..
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barbequebob
65 posts
Nov 10, 2009
12:00 PM
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The idea that anything sounds equally good regardless if the note is bent or unbent using either single note playing method is exactly what you want to strive for.
TB is the method taught by classical players, mainly for speed and what they tell you is to move the harp in a small arc using the TB, rather than moving your head so fast phrases can be played very smoothly.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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