JimInMO
17 posts
Nov 08, 2009
9:50 AM
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First off I am all for people receiving their due. Especially the way artist's have been ripped off over the years but have some questions about how the BMI determines how bar owners are charged. We were supposed to play the local watering hole this coming week-end. Friday we got word that the owner had canceled all bands for the time being. Seems he was visited by a BMI representative and told he had to pay $2500.00 for a year or face legal action. In one way that's not much but on the other hand this is a new place, open a little over 4 months. in a small town. If fact the whole county has less than 9000 population. With the lousy economy he is really struggling after sinking a lot of money into creating a first class venue. I don't feel too sorry for him as this is just one of a number of things he didn't do his home work on. Oops, starting to ramble. Anyway, just for my own curiosity I was wondering how this works. Couldn't find out much one the BMI web site.
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GermanHarpist
673 posts
Nov 08, 2009
1:41 PM
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What's BMI?
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germanharpist on YT. = ;-)
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phogi
108 posts
Nov 08, 2009
1:46 PM
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bar owners must pay bmi if performers in their bar play copyrighted songs.
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nacoran
345 posts
Nov 08, 2009
1:53 PM
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My understanding is the money goes into a pool that artists get paid out of. I don't know what formula they use to determine how much an individual artist makes. They say something about getting song lists from major events, but I don't know how they know to give Bob Dylan X and Bruce Springsteen Y. They could compare it to other data they have from shows that do report and assume those that don't play similar stuff, I guess. I think you'd need to really scour the site to find out all the details. I didn't find much either, just skimming it.
http://www.bmi.com/
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Bb
97 posts
Nov 08, 2009
1:57 PM
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The BMI mother fucker better stay the hell out of the bars I play. ;^)
-Bob
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GermanHarpist
675 posts
Nov 08, 2009
2:00 PM
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Well, I guess foremost the money is used to pay for the bureaucracy to keep the gestapo system in place.
EDIT: ok, maybe a little strong... but "pay $2500.00 for a year or face legal action" sounds pretty harsh. Sounds like...?... the mob.
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germanharpist on YT. = ;-)
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2009 6:44 PM
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Buzadero
193 posts
Nov 08, 2009
2:08 PM
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While we're on this topic, perhaps someone could enlighten me on something that I've always been curious about. When you use a song written by someone else on a cd (or in a YouTube vid for that matter), how does the residual system work? For example, let's say I make a disc and use a song by Bob Marley or Willie Nelson. Let's say that I use 4 of 12 cuts tha were written by others. I make 500 copies to sell, give away etc. Was I supposed to get permission first? Pay after? How does this work? I'm just curious since it is a clear gap in my personal knowledge of how the world works.
Thanks.
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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JimInMO
18 posts
Nov 08, 2009
2:46 PM
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Buzadero, I think your are supposed to receive permission from the artist. So the artist can't possible communicate with the thousands of people who use their work that's where the BMI, ASCAP,RAC and RIAA and all of these confusing orgs. come in. I suppose that's one reason people hire managers.
GermanHarpist. BMI is supposed to be non-profit but sure they take "administrative expenses off the top.
Hey Bb, the MF's that show up at the bar to enforce collection will be lawman. Most bars I work don't want the law snooping around and have their license. :>)
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Delta Dirt
31 posts
Nov 08, 2009
2:57 PM
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Doesnt exist down here.
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JimInMO
19 posts
Nov 08, 2009
3:10 PM
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Delta Dirt, Didn't exist in this bar until last Monday. Other members of my band have been playing around here for close to 40 years and haven't come across it. I came here from Kansas City and it's tough there. They even nailed a friend for the radio he had playing in his bar. I talked to the gal that runs a bar across the street from the place that got nailed. She pays BMI $75.00 a year for the jukebox. That's what got me going about the $2500. a year. The jukebox goes 6 days a week and bands only play Friday and Saturday. I have since found out that some other bars in the area were contacted too.
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congaron
240 posts
Nov 08, 2009
3:14 PM
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You are supposed to ask the artist's representative, record label, 0r manager..whoever holds the copyright, basically.
If you do, they are required by law to permit your cover of their song and you must pay the royalty. The last time i looked into it it was something like .08/copy for a 5 minute song as I recall. The amount over 5 minutes is higher, but i don't remember exactly.
anyway, if you make a cd with 1000copies of that song, you'd paid 80 bucks to use the song. Performances are based on the expected number of attendees hearing the material.
Here's the gotcha, if you get caught not asking permission, the fines are in the 10's of thousands and you WILL pay them if the artist decides to press the charges. If you ASK permission, the artist is REQUIRED to let you cover their material for the royalties, even if you suck.
This is the same in the Christian contemporary world. CHurches pay these royalties to CCLI for use of praise and worship songs on Sundays. They are required to document their song usage and attendance, number of times the song is played etc. This is in addition to the licensing fees you pay up front to use the service. The venue is generally expected to cover this expense, but the artist is expected to provide the list of cover songs, since there is more than one licensing agency. I haven't looked into this in a couple of years, but it is important when you make a cd for resale. Google things like artist copyrights...musical royalties, stuff like that.
When a power point slide is used, the artist and copyright info has to be in the lower corner..for lyrics, etc...karaoke...stuff like that.
It is pretty common in the Christian contemporary world for artists to discover cover bands and venues not paying royalties. Generally it is worked out in a friendly but firm manner, the details are simply corrected and life goes on. In the secular music business, things are not so friendly, although I have heard of cases where some grace was extended for one-time slip-ups.
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2009 3:23 PM
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Aussiesucker
423 posts
Nov 09, 2009
12:01 AM
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This is scary stuff. The logical progression is that if you do a cover on a well known tune and eg put it up on Youtube & get 50,000 hits they could eventually track you down for the royalties?
My understanding of the situation over here is now moving in favour of live music due to fees being levied on clubs/ hotels playing recorded music. I guess once they have plugged all the loopholes on one form they will go after the other.
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