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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Learning songs
Learning songs
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Oisin
376 posts
Nov 09, 2009
5:14 PM
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Following on from Elwoods posting of the Joe Filisko interview and subsequent discussion, it occurred to me that playing in the style of someone is something I was taught not to do when I had lessons. "Always strive for your own sound" is what I was told by my teacher " I've already got a Sonny Boy cd and I don't need to hear someone trying to impersonate his sound" So I've never tried to do that and to tell the truth I've never ever learnt a whole song in all the time I've been playing (with the exception of Oh Susanna and some kids songs I play to my 2 year old).
I think this is because I started to go to jams very shortly after I started learning and didn't know any of the songs they were playing and just improvised. I think this has helped me to develop, rather than sitting in the garage starting and stopping a cd player and trying to learn songs note by note.I just could not do this, just don't have that kind of discipline. I have learned lots of licks from other people but never a whole song.
So are you an improvisor or do you learn the song note by note? If you are the second kind..how do you get on at jams (were I have yet to hear a song reproduced even close to what it was supposed to sound like!!)
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Leanground
88 posts
Nov 09, 2009
5:52 PM
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That's my story as well...I listen all the time to blues old to new but gravitate to the old stuff.
Today I'm improvising to Furry Lewis.
I'm on my fifth year playing and can't imagine life without my harp or how I managed the 48 years without it
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Ryan
27 posts
Nov 09, 2009
6:13 PM
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I think knowing how to improvise is an important skill, especially if you mainly play at jam sessions. But I think learning specific songs, or at least the head, is important as well. I think it helps with your timing when playing with a band. When you're improvising you have some leeway and don't need to come in on a specific beat, for the most part, and you can make it work. But when you're playing the head, or a specific passage of a song, you need to come in at exactly the right beat otherwise it will throw everything off (unless of course you've practiced enough too adjust on th fly and find your place). Hmmm, I don't know if I explained that very well.
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 6:17 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
103 posts
Nov 09, 2009
6:37 PM
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If you steal from one, it's plagerism
If you steal from many, it's research.
In our club, there are people that only play straight harp. They play songs you sing, and that's it. They can not improvise or play blues. we have blues players that can only play licks. They can not play a song you can sing along with. Some of us newer guys are learning both.
There is nothing wrong with learning a song note for note. A broad range of tunes to call from gives you many building blocks to build new tunes.
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Sirsucksalot
81 posts
Nov 09, 2009
6:43 PM
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Being able to improvise is a must when playing with a band. The chances of the guitar players / singers and everyone else knowing the exact versions of the songs you can play note by note is slim at best, unless you play with some real blues fanatics. Improvising is all about coming in on a specific beat and feeling the grove of the song. You have to listen very hard to hear where the band is going. After a while it becomes intuition. Not being able to improvise i think would make it near impossible to play with anyone else or write a song that's not a copy of someone else's material. This all changes when your band has written songs that you have to learn. Then you have to sound like your improvising. That's just what iv learned from my experience.
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Ryan
28 posts
Nov 09, 2009
7:00 PM
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" Improvising is all about coming in on a specific beat and feeling the grove of the song."
I agree, but if you're going to improvise a solo and you end up coming in a couple beats late, it's not going to throw everything off, and you'll be able to make it work without much trouble (as long as you know where you are in the progression). Like on a jam track for example, you can jump in anywhere you want and make it work. But if your playing the head, or a specific passage that you've memorised, you need to come in at exactly the right time or you're going to have problems unless you're able quickly catch up and find your place. Being able to come in at exactly at the right moment and follow the rhythm is an important skill (as is being able to quickly find your place and continue if you make some sort of error). That's why I think learning a specific piece (as opposed to improvising everything you play) and playing it with a band can be helpful.
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 7:00 PM
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walterharp
112 posts
Nov 09, 2009
7:08 PM
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the band i am in has 8, so when i get a solo, then time to improvise, otherwise, need to play the same lines so things do not get mushy. I also write some songs and the intro and end need to be pretty much the same so everyone can get on board, so those are learned. Plus, the audience comes to expect things in songs and you need to be able to deliver. Even in jams, you should get the hook or sit out for that bit. Finally, learning melodies note for note is good for enriching your solos, and audiences love it when you throw in quotes they know from other songs
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Aussiesucker
425 posts
Nov 09, 2009
7:41 PM
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I tend to agree with Jim R. I was a straight harp player for years before I found my interest to learn country via learning blues. I struggle.
I can play almost anything that has a tune to it ie if I can sing the lyrics (I can't really sing)or hum the tune then its usually very easy for me to play. I have trouble with tabs and play by ear. My ear doesn't hear a lot of blues ie or doesn't want to. But recognisable blues tunes like St Louis Blues, St James Infirmiary etc are OK for me.
I think the harmonica is a very versatile instrument capable of doing justice to almost all sorts of music. I don't think we should limit ourselves when our harp is capable of extending us.
When I first started moving away from all first pos playing especially after it being ingrained for decades, it was like relearning where all the notes were and akin to eg playing it back to front. I would imagine that those of you who only play blues licks would experience the same pain in reverse when trying to learn straight harp tunes?
I don't play with a group and only play for my own enjoyment. There have been those few rare times when I have felt really in the groove and improvised on pieces for over 5 minutes and wished that I had recorded them. For the most part I don't experience that and certainly when confronted to produce I have trouble. One day it will happen.
I am currently taking courses from Tony Eyers -Harmonica Academy which has 2 streams ie 1)Blues
2) Celtic ie Irish fiddle & Bluegrass stuff. I think its a very good course covering both ends of the spectrum.
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nacoran
369 posts
Nov 09, 2009
8:12 PM
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I can pick up a tune if I can hum it, my problem is most of the time I'm just jamming or playing for my own entertainment, often playing along with songs on my computer. There are probably literally hundreds of songs I know, or know most of, from "London Bridge is Falling Down" to "Bohemian Rhapsody" but I almost never take that last simple step of figuring out the arrangement, how many verses, how many choruses, etc. That's fine if I'm playing with someone who knows the song because I can follow their lead. If they start singing the chorus, I play the chorus, but if I'm up on stage at an open mic alone it can be quite confusing for the crowd. (Ok, the five people in the back, including the host, who are paying attention, just because I haven't taken the 5 minutes per song to jot the important stuff down.) The problem I have is that 5 minutes is the boring part of learning the song.
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jbone
187 posts
Nov 10, 2009
4:37 AM
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i'm a near-total improviser and always have been. i do learn the front and back end of particular songs and always try to do justice to a given song. for me it's all about the feel. add to the feel of a song and you're a genius! go off into outer space and you're a weirdo. i have on occasion seen looks from jam mates or patrons like they are wondering what planet i just flew in from. most of the time i stay within the predictable boundaries of a given song yet make it my own when the time presents itself.
occasionally my muse blesses me with a feel for one of the walters or sbwII or another originator, and that's cool, but i have developed my own style and i have striven to work between the usual lines. i like to think, what if.......what if one of the originators had available what we have today? a particular amp or mic, particular players who are in the know and can innovate a different groove to an old standard? lester butler with the red devils and others sort of turned a switch on in my head some years ago along these lines.
it's very true that you will seldom find a band/jam/gig where the covers are done "just like the original". this is because everything down to the reeds in a harp, strings on a guitar, let alone everything else, is different from what was used way back when those recordings that inspire us were made. and we are different people than the originators. in this day and age, with all the technical innovations, all the free information, all the thousands and thousands of good players coming up, one must make one's own niche to stand out a bit.
i depend on my guitar partner, or on a band i'm sitting in with, to lay down a particular groove. it is seldom a carbon copy of whatever song inspired us. sometimes it works very well and sometimes we have to rework something to get it right. on a jam stage there is no time to stop and restart, you have to go with what's there in the moment. thinking on the fly is important. for me, it's almost an unconscious process.
but a jam is where i learn to push limits and try new stuff when the opportunity presents. it's also where i learn manners and stage etiquette. as i learn more about the structure of music and as i also get the benefit of all the knowhow people share about playing, and also the benefit of better harps and gear, my style improves. my confidence and competence improve too. i can relax these days and hit the groove and do it justice. i can't imagine doing just what so and so did even if he sold a million records doing that. i can only imagine what's relevant in the moment. on a stage or in the living room or on a street corner, when we're in the thick of things.
i recall our first time to play in mississippi at a now-defunct club at the old train station. almost no audience, it was a rainy night, there was no reason to be excited to be playing to a near-empty room. but when we thought about all the footsteps of all the originators who walked through that station between the 1920's and the 1970's, we were just gripped by something. we had plenty of material to work with and somehow we found even more as we busted loose and lat out all the stops. we played for all we were worth just because of where we were and in honor of the originators of the music we love so much. it was a near holy experience. ask me today how i did the harp part for "my babe" and i can't tell you. you had to be there. ask Jo how she played any of the songs we did that night, she can't tell you. sometimes when you surrender to your muse, and the ghosts of the ones who came before you, something incredible can happen.
the result of that particular night was, our pay was doubled on the spot and we were invited back. another result was, we found we had tapped into the ZONE big time.
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KingoBad
126 posts
Nov 10, 2009
5:36 AM
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I started out being a completely improvisational player. It was easy because the 12 bar progression has such a wonderful predictability to it that you can romp all over it.
I found however, that my playing abilities greatly improved as I started copying the masters. To eke out exactly what Big Walter, Little Walter or Sonny Boy 2 are doing is learning the language of the blues harp.
Without learning the language, it is like going to another country with a Berlitz book. Sure, you may be able to ask where the bathroom is fluently, but it is hard to argue about philosophy.
You would not be able to write a book without first learning the language. I would also argue that you cannot develop your own style without learning the language of harp playing. That is not to say that you could not learn to play some cool stuff while deserted on an island, but why strand yourself when the crash course is available to you?
I say maintain the improv. skills that you must have, but spend some time intently learning a few of the great songs from some of the great players. You might never play them at a jam, but your playing will be that much more improved at the jam.
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congaron
246 posts
Nov 10, 2009
9:46 AM
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This is funny and timely. At our last gig..well the rehearsal for it, the lead guitarist says "Hey let's play Happy Birthday for Dave's daughter at the gig!"
GULP! I didn't know how to play Happy birthday. I also didn't know the melody criss-crossed holes 6 and 7. So, I fumbled around with it, realizing in my humility I needed to work on my scales around holes 6 and 7 more, until I figured it out without so much pattern memorizing.
Then the lead singer says.."I want to blues out Amazing Grace as a lead-in to the third day cover"....
GULP AGAIN!
I never bothered to learn Amazing Grace either..even though a buddy of mine was struggling with "I keep hitting wrong notes" on that very song. Once again...criss-crossing holes 6 and 7.
So I learned them both that night, then woodshedded them at work all week and at home to kill off all the wrong notes. I learned a weak spot in my playing to address, two new songs, and the flavor of humble pie....again.
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congaron
247 posts
Nov 10, 2009
9:48 AM
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oh.. and i mostly improvise...but often along a melody line or hint of a harmony or something to make each solo sound different...using target notes and kindof a "home plate" place in my phrasing to keep it familiar and bluesy-repetitious without being boring.
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Oisin
378 posts
Nov 10, 2009
3:10 PM
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Jbone/Aussie...I can relate to what you say about the zone. Everything just seems to fall into place and you can't explain what it is your doing or even repeat it, I've had a couple of those moments.
Kingobad....I really like the way you put that...keep on improvising but learn a few tunes, it will improve my harp vocabulary. I went for a lesson a while back with a guy here in the UK called Steve Weston and he also said the same thing to me. I was a bit disheartened by this advice as I didn't really see the point but the way you've said it makes sense and I'm gonna give it a try
Oisin
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jbone
188 posts
Nov 10, 2009
8:14 PM
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i do agree with kingo also. there is a lot i have not approached re the basics of harp playing, and i need to. it would not hurt me at all. but the lazy part of me just doesn't find the time very often to zero in on these things.
i have been very taken with a few of little walter's pieces and with sbII as well. perhaps it's almost that time....
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congaron
251 posts
Nov 11, 2009
12:04 PM
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I found I was playing the same stuff over and over. Learning some melodies gave me a place to start from and go back to within the identity of the song. Sometimes i still just wail, but learning some tunes makes all the songs sound better to me. Less alike, i guess. It's still one guy on a harmonica and can be overdone just like any other instrument in a long set if you aren't careful.
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