Ryan
34 posts
Nov 16, 2009
7:59 PM
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As I mentioned in another thread, I've recently been working on figuring out how to pick the best position for certain songs. Lately I've been working on playing 2nd and 12th position in major keyed (non-bluesy) songs. Some songs 2nd position works really well and sounds good, other times 2nd pos. is awkward and 12th position works out far better. My question for Buddha, or anyone else who works with several positions, is are you able tell, just by listening to a song (in this case major keyed folk, pop, or country(etc.)songs), what position would be best? Or do you just need to try playing it in a couple of different positions?
Buddha do you ever use 2nd pos. to play in these types of major keyed songs, or do you always prefer 12th (or some other position).
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nacoran
404 posts
Nov 16, 2009
9:28 PM
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Sometimes I sit, sometimes I stand. Occasionally if I get an idea in the middle of the night I'll grab a harp and play laying on my back. I'm kind of out of shape. I think any other position would kill me.
Seriously though, I have a hard time switching positions on the harp. It gets even worse if I have played the tune in one position for a while. The muscle memory works against me and I find myself sliding over a couple notes instead of looking for the right bends. If I want something to sound 'pretty' I'll play it in first position, if I want it to sound 'dirty' I'll go to second. Sometimes I'll lay my harps out in front of me in order by the circle of fifths and work it each way, but I don't have an overblow yet and not all my harps even blowbend well so there is only so much I can do.
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Ryan
35 posts
Nov 16, 2009
9:47 PM
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If I'm working on a specific melody or head I will try it in a few different positions that I think might work, and it is usually pretty clear as to which position it lays most easily in.
What I was mostly refering to though was improvising. In certain songs some positions just seem to flow so much better while improvising and really fit the mood of the song. I know Buddha has talked about this, and I'm still working on my ability to pick out the most appropriate position. Sometimes it's really clear to me, but it seems like a lot of the time I can narrow it down to couple positions but can't decide on which one will sound the best.
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asilve3
46 posts
Nov 16, 2009
9:54 PM
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I've found, the more I play in various positions the more acquainted my ear becomes with each positions characteristics. When I hear a major-ish sounding song I KNOW that 1st, 2nd, 12th, and maybe 10th are gonna sound best. So how do choose from those? It really depends on what mood I'm in or it depends on what else is happening in the song. Sometimes I'll play in a not so comfortable position like 3rd position major if I know the bridge is gonna switch to a key where I can tear it up.
The way you learn to pick the best position is to play them all and then decide what YOU like. If you can only play in 2nd and 12th for now than those are the best until you learn sumpthing new. You'll get it, just play em all and make it fun.
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http://www.youtube.com/user/asilve3
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nacoran
407 posts
Nov 16, 2009
10:18 PM
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It also depends a lot on what key it would sound best in. It's really hard to separate out the position without thinking about the key too. If you want to play something low can start with a low harp, but if you start midway up the harp you won't be all that low.
I'm still filling out my harp collection. I have at least a cheap harp for almost every key but not all the harps respond as well. For some harps some positions are out from the get go.
I'd suggest thinking about the song in your head and deciding where it is you want the best bends in the song to be and adjusting the position accordingly. If you want a 1 1/2 note bend in a specific spot you know where you need to be. Of course, if you only have one harp on you what key you want to be in makes the most difference.
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2009 10:27 PM
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Buddha
1162 posts
Nov 17, 2009
4:08 AM
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I don't always do this but in general I think of what positions to play...
Cowboy/Campfire tunes - 1st
Blues/Country 2nd
Funk/Jazz/Latin 3rd
Latin/Asian 4th
Arabic/Jazz 5th
Central Asian/Minor Blues (sometimes) 6th
Arabic/Hindustani/Asian 7th
Arabic/Hindustani/Asian 8th
Blues (sometimes) 9th (rare that I use this but there are some very cool bends)
Jazz 10th I play Body and Soul in this position
Jazz/Rhythm Changes/R&B/Pop/Soul/Country 11th
Jazz/R&B/Blues/Pop/Most major style music/ Country 12th
I use 11th and 12th for most things. I almost always use 2nd for Blues and funk/groove I almost always use 3rd. I have practiced most things in most positions but only as an exercise.
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"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
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HarpNinja
22 posts
Nov 17, 2009
5:49 AM
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I try to stay away from bends I don't want to play. I also try to go with a position that let's me play the chord tones easily. But in general, I play a lot of third and 12th.
The other thing I take into consideration is whether the harp is a high key or low key. I would only play an F harp in cross harp, and I might chose an A harp over a D harp depending on the feel of a tune.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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Shredder
48 posts
Nov 17, 2009
8:15 AM
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Another dumb question, If the song is written in "A" and I play cross harp it puts me using a D harp. If I want to play in 12th position what harp should I play if the somg is in "A"?
Mike
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Buddha
1167 posts
Nov 17, 2009
8:17 AM
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E harp to play 12th in A
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"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
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Shredder
50 posts
Nov 17, 2009
8:19 AM
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Thanks' Buddha!
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mr_so&so
237 posts
Nov 17, 2009
11:03 AM
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@Shredder. As mentioned by nacoran, the "circle of fifths" is the key to answering all your harp/key/position questions. Find the key you are playing in for the various positions by counting clockwise around the circle from your harp key. Find the key of harp to play for a particular position by counting counter-clockwise from the key of the music.
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nacoran
417 posts
Nov 17, 2009
1:32 PM
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Bluzlr- cool link. The chart I'd been go by only shows 1-3. It's easy enough to count out from there, but it's even easier to have a master list.
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Shredder
51 posts
Nov 17, 2009
6:27 PM
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Now I'm totaly confused, I have always counted up 4 keys to play cross harp,I'm talking years.The guitar is playing in "A" so I play a "D" harp. The chart link above showes I've been playing 12th position?
By the chart I should be playing an "E" harp?
I can't see the forest for the trees!
Mike
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RyanMortos
475 posts
Nov 17, 2009
6:51 PM
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You're counting 4keys from what? I guess you're starting on A and counting up the major scale A, B, C, D? If you were using the chromatic scale you'd end on C# (aka Db).
On your A harp your 2d is E. So if you're root is 2d (as in the 2nd pos blues scale) then you're playing in key of E.
D on an A harp would be 5d as your root note then you'd be on your way to playing 12th/D.
The circle of 5ths is a real cool tool for finding what note is the root note for your position of choice.
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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Shredder
52 posts
Nov 17, 2009
7:04 PM
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@Ryan, I'm counting up starting on A=1,B=2,C=3,D=4
Note the Guitar is playing in A and I play a D harp.
So what position is that called?
Damm, if I've been thinking I was playing 2nd position all these years it'll be like Columbus discovering the world was round.
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RyanMortos
476 posts
Nov 17, 2009
7:16 PM
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No, I confused what you were saying. That's what I get for joining the thread party late.
The 2d on your D harp is an A so you're playing in 2nd :) .
Okay, I re-read your question.
The chart above says that if you are playing an A harp then D is 12th position.
The first column on that chart is not the key the guitar is playing in. It is the harp key you are using. So if you're playing a D you start at the D row in the first column and move two columns over from that and see the A. That help?
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Last Edited by on Nov 17, 2009 7:21 PM
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Shredder
53 posts
Nov 17, 2009
7:30 PM
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OK, with that settled I feel better now. I was a little shook up.
I still don't follow that chart on angelfire.
If the major key is C for example, it's the 1st line on the chart. It showes 2nd position would be a G harp? I alway's play an F harp but on the chart it shows it to be 12th position.
I'm still lost with this position thing. Would this be a chromatic scale chart I'm looking at on angelfire?
HELP! Mike
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walterharp
122 posts
Nov 17, 2009
7:30 PM
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really, learning the circle of 5ths helps tremendously in figuring out positions. lately I have been playing a lot of 14th position for blues :-)
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RyanMortos
477 posts
Nov 17, 2009
7:40 PM
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Shredder what the chart says is if you have a C harp in your hand that the root note for 2nd position would be the note G (not the harp G) .
I guess you could look at it this way, the guitar is playing G & you want 2nd position. Find G in the 2nd position column, then look at the note at the beginning of that row, its a C therefore a C Harp would be used.
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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asilve3
48 posts
Nov 17, 2009
7:49 PM
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@walterharp: LOL!
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http://www.youtube.com/user/asilve3
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Shredder
54 posts
Nov 17, 2009
7:51 PM
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This makes my head hurt, hell I can't make heads or tails of this circle of fifths on angelfire either.
If I had been faced with all this jargon when I 1st got intrested in harp I don't think I would have ever picked up a harp.
Note to newbies. just pick up the thing and play.If the song is played in the key of A count up 4 and use a D harp and draw instead of blowing from 5 draw on down.
Mike
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RyanMortos
478 posts
Nov 17, 2009
7:57 PM
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Walterharp, if youre going to play in 14th then Im going to play in 3,338th and match you note for note. Im just that good.
(Maybe it be easier to reset back to 1 like a digital non miliary watch after we reach 12? :P )
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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Ryan
36 posts
Nov 17, 2009
8:10 PM
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"lately I have been playing a lot of 14th position for blues :-) "
I prefer to call it 11th flat position.
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Andrew
748 posts
Nov 17, 2009
9:51 PM
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The chart's fine, except that they can kill the references to Gb and to Locrian and all that mode shit and the rest of the page, really, unless you really want to play mediaeval church music.
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Kinda hot in these rhinos!
Last Edited by on Nov 17, 2009 9:53 PM
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mr_so&so
239 posts
Nov 18, 2009
8:51 AM
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This topic has gotten off track onto the circle of fifths thing, and I guess that is my fault, sorry. But I have one more thing to say on that. It seriously is not that difficult. Forget about those big charts (e.g. link provided above); they don't teach you anything. Just have a look at the circle of fifths, e.g. here. This one is fancy and interactive, but all you need is the default "major" configuration for most purposes. Then re-read my post above on how harp players can use it.
Personally, I'd like to know more about how to choose a playing position based on the music you are playing, which was the original question.
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blogward
1 post
Nov 18, 2009
11:02 AM
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Buddha's got it above. It often depends on the tune, and whether you feel like playing 'outside the box' a bit: where you want to be is to be able to pick a harp out of the case blind and make that work:) Upside down, even.
But if a tune 'expects' 2nd position, you can often use 3rd, 11th or 12th with care. On a C harp, your most useable keys after cross/2nd G are D, E, Bb, F, C-blues and A minor. C#,F# and A major are for the hardcore, but all keys are gettable.
Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2009 11:06 AM
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kudzurunner
797 posts
Nov 18, 2009
11:11 AM
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Thanks, Buddha, for that concise little guide to positions.
Someone should give this thread a static link on the page where we do that, and call it "position playing" or something like that.
Who is my administrator for that page? My Alzheimer's is acting up, dammit.
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Andrew
749 posts
Nov 19, 2009
1:17 AM
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"My Alzheimer's is acting up"
Is that the new Hohner or the new Seydel? Do I have to bin my Manjis already?
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Kinda hot in these rhinos!
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blogward
6 posts
Nov 19, 2009
1:32 AM
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I arrange my harps in the case likewise:
C G D A E B F# C# Ab Bb Eb F
If I've got a C harp, 2nd pos is G, 3rd is D, etc. Any start position is 1, or 13 if you're counting backwards. I have a mnemonic, but it's obscene.
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Shredder
55 posts
Nov 20, 2009
8:14 AM
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Hey guy's,
Ok I see a more of the trees now.
Ryan, I see what I was having problems with. It's not the harp it's the note! I have this problem of making easy things difficult some times.
Thanks' for the help all of you.
Mike
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