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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
1st position upper octave with ET harps.
1st position upper octave with ET harps.
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congaron
299 posts
Nov 24, 2009
8:31 AM
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Hi gang. Has anybody else found upper octave chords to be particularly sour when you play Jimmy reed type stuff on an ET tuned harp, like suzuki?
Here's why i ask. I recently started only carrying Hohner harps to work...marine bands in A and D. I practice everything I know how to do every day. I played them enough this week to tear the skin on both sides of my upper lip.
On first position upper octave stuff, they sound so sweet and bluesy.
Then, Last night my guitar player introduces a song he calls "drunk and stupid" in the key of E. Well, immediately I think the upper register and some Jimmy Reed style bendy chords will be perfect in the context of this song. I pick up my Suzuki harpmaster, after chugging along on my Marine Band in A for the first part of the song and rip into a first position solo in the upper octave.....Ouch!
Right away, i realize i'm going to have to stick to single notes..so i do that for the rest of the solo. I have not noticed this so much in the lower octave when i play rhythm on a suzuki harp. any thoughts on this?
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barbequebob
124 posts
Nov 24, 2009
8:41 AM
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If you want better sounding chords, first choice is a harp that's tuned to just intonation, and after that, a comprimise tuning. ET is for those who rarely ever play chords and double stops and often playing in positions past 3rd. Suzuki is not the only company tuning harps to ET. Hohner Golden Melodies, Lee Oskars, are also tuned to ET.
Hohner abandoned just intonation in the early 90's, going for a couple of different comprimise tunings to appeal to a wider variety of music genres. There are valid arguments both for and against just, equal, or comprimise tunings, but like anything else, each one has both advantages as well as drawbacks.
As a traditional blues player, I much prefer 7 limit just intonation or 19 limit, and for playing old timey, Americana, 7 limit, as much of that is in first position, but with other genres, that's wide open to other tunings.
If you go to either http://www.harmonicaspace.com and also on http://www.deltafrost.com, I have a list of the different diatonic tunings as to how to set them up from all of the comprimise tunings as well as jsut intonation on what harps that use it.
If you play just the 1st 3 positions, 7LJI is fine, but the big complaint is that 5 and 9 draw is tuned 29-31 cents flat, but the chords are in its purest possible harmony, and if you were to take a key of C diatonic and play it in F, which is 5 & 9 draw on a C, you don't want the root note that flat at all.
19 Limit has those two notes tuned 3 cents sharp, making it more versatile in terms of positions.
The diatonic stuff that both Walters and both Sonny boys, Butterfield, and Jimmy Reed recorded were all done with harps tuned to 7LJI.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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congaron
300 posts
Nov 24, 2009
9:02 AM
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thanks for the links..I'll check them out.
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congaron
301 posts
Nov 24, 2009
9:34 AM
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after looking at the charts, I guess I'm finding one more reason to go with marine bands. Even now, it looks like their compromise tuning will fit my style of play and music the best. Thanks again for the links, Bob.
Oh, I went to your site too..good stuff!
Last Edited by on Nov 24, 2009 9:35 AM
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tookatooka
798 posts
Nov 24, 2009
9:38 AM
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AH! ET raises it's head again. I'm a fan of the Suzuki range and have used them all the time I've been playing. The first time I noticed something wasn't quite right was when I used to try and follow Adam's tutorials and no matter how I tried, couldn't emulate some of what he was doing. In the end I put it down to the ET. Chordal playing can sound quite harsh on ET when you get a certain combination of notes.
I'm tempted to try a Special 20 to see how that fares. I'd like to play more chordally but the Suzuki ET just doesn't sound right for me. I'd love to go the MB route but I've been spoilt with the comfort of the plastic comb and I'm a big baby.
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congaron
303 posts
Nov 24, 2009
9:43 AM
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true..I am currently nursing my upper lip with plastic comb harps and blistex after two straight days of several hours woodshedding on marine bands and promasters. I actually removed skin in one place because the flap was bothering me. I did, however master a couple of things i was shedding....lol.
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Andrew
772 posts
Nov 24, 2009
10:57 AM
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I get beating in the upper octave when I play a chord JI; is that what you can hear? Tell me you never listen to a piano, and I'll believe you've got a problem with ET.
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Kinda hot in these rhinos!
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Jim Rumbaugh
115 posts
Nov 24, 2009
11:04 AM
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Before going on too much about ET vs Just vs whatever.
@Congaron.... have you checked the intonation of the harp to see if you have a bad note or two.? MY harps go flat. ANY temperment will sound bad if the notes are going out. I would like to know if it is a properly tuned ET giving you the problem or a ET harp with a few bad notes.
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tookatooka
799 posts
Nov 24, 2009
11:41 AM
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@Andrew@ For me it is the beating, but I'm getting confused with this issue now. I'm gonna have to do some more homework.
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congaron
307 posts
Nov 24, 2009
12:02 PM
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It may also be the chords playing under me on the guitar..it just seemed sour, where the marine band upper octaves I play solos on in first position never sounded that way. I'll check out the harp too..good idea.
There are plenty of acoustic reasons a piano's tuning will sound different than an ET harmonica to your ear, not the least of which is the proximity of your jawbone and eustachian tubes to the air cavity we use. Even some small degree of doppler effect can come into play as piano notes bounce off the walls and reinforce or cancel each other.
A piano plays strings mounted on a metal soundboard partially inside a wooden cabinet resonating into a room or area ...unlikely to produce the same sounding chords in your ear as a reed vibrating within an air channel a fraction of an inch from your eustachian tube, leading directly to the back side of your ear drum.
FWIW, my bandmates didn't think it sounded bad at all, so some of these same reasons may affect what they heard versus what i heard..i will record it and find out.
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congaron
308 posts
Nov 24, 2009
12:04 PM
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the harp is good, Jim.
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barbequebob
126 posts
Nov 25, 2009
9:26 AM
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When ET was first devised back in the late 1600's, every instrument was tuned to some form of JI, and this website http://www.justintonation.net has a list of every single one that have been used over the centuries.
The problem was to be able to play in all keys compatibly, and by the 1700's, all instruments were basically tuned to ET, to be able to play in all 12 keys. They knew that the chords were, as a tradeoff, going to sound rough, and with some instruments, the beating from it would be really awful.
The tuning works on pianos because of where the hammer is precisely placed to strike the string, and it also acts as a damper that would dampen the overtones that are equivalent of 5 & 9 draw on a diatonic harmonica tuned to ET, as opposed to JI, especially 7LJI, and without that hammer striking that exact spot, ET would not work at all. Also pianos are tuned to whast's called stretch tuning, meaning each octave higher than middle C is tuned 2 cents sharper, and each following that another 2 cents sharp. The beating on a piano is far milder than on harmonicas because of where the hammer is hitting the strings. It's place is important because piano gives off more harmonic overtones than any other instrument, and the closest to that are the reeds of a harmonica.
Harmonica reeds give off far more overtones than a guitar does, but many of them are of the odd-numbered variety, wheras pianos and guitars give off more even numbered overtones, and odd numbered ones the human ear percieves, much like solid state distortion from the early solid state amps, as being extremely harsh to the human ear, and this is also why ET tuned chords on diatonic harps often sound horrible and dissonent. Chromatics are tuned ET, but the windsaver valves, besides recirculating air into the reed, also works as a damper to some of the upper harmonic overtones, thus mellowing the harshness of the sound of an ET tuned chord.
Comprimise tunings as a whole, is somewhere in between, meaning the single notes are not quite as dead on in places, but the chord is smoother, but it still will beat, tho not as horribly as an ET tuned chord does.
Until the early 1990's, most Hohners, including the Marine Band were tuned stock to 7LJI. The closest comprimise tuning to this is what Seydel presently uses.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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walterharp
130 posts
Nov 25, 2009
11:30 AM
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but he said octaves, which leads me to believe the harp is simply out of tune, because with octaves they should sound find in either tuning, correct? chords, that is another story
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walterharp
131 posts
Nov 25, 2009
11:33 AM
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oops. sorry. he said upper octave chords...still should upper octave chords sound off and lower part of the harp sound ok if the tuning is correct regardelss?
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Andrew
775 posts
Nov 25, 2009
12:02 PM
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Different octaves generate different beat frequencies between the notes because the octaves have constant frequency ratios, but the beat notes, being frequency differences, vary.
e.g A is 440, 220, 110. The ratio is a constant 2:1 but the differences are 220 and 110
(this is an unfortunate coincidence of choosing octaves, but it works for all intervals, it's just that I'm not prepared to spend the time researching actual numbers)
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Kinda hot in these rhinos!
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barbequebob
127 posts
Nov 25, 2009
2:56 PM
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If you want to hear the difference between ET & JI with both single notes as well as chords based on a key of C diatonic harp, go to http://www.patmissin.com and he has sound files you can listen to. Pat is one of the most knowledgeable people on the planet when it comes to the harmonica.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Gwythion
21 posts
Nov 26, 2009
5:00 AM
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@Bob, What you said a couple of posts ago explains why, when I half-valved my cheapo harps at the weekend, they sounded a whole lot better.
My cheap harps are ET - what I'll do now is half-valve my quality ET harps, too.
Cheers!
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barbequebob
129 posts
Nov 26, 2009
7:25 AM
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Just remember this: whenever you do that, much like a harp setup properly to OB, or has tight reed slot tolerances and/or thicker reed plates, the harp becomes considerably more sensitive to breath force and like a chromatic, can blank out on you when played too hard.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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walterharp
132 posts
Nov 26, 2009
8:46 AM
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what I was trying to say, is that if you look at the tuning charts (bbq posted those a bit back here or somewhere else) the number of cents each note is off in the scale is the same regardless of octave, so in 7 limit JI the 5 and 9 draw are both -29 for example. Thus, the chords should sound the same degree of off or on regardless of octave you play the chord in, assuming the harp is in key
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