tookatooka
824 posts
Dec 03, 2009
11:27 AM
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I feel like a traitor because I've ordered a Special 20 and some replacement plates too. After being a Suzuki user for so long I've come to the conclusion that to get the sound I'm after I really do need to try the Just Intonnation tuning.
After seeing all the videos in the fast(ish) thread it comes across as plain as anything that most of the guys there are not using ET tuned harps and that's where I want to be too.
I'd love to try the MB's but I know I wouldn't get on with the wood so plumped for the SP20.
Fingers crossed I'll get a good one. I got the spare plates just in case I get a duff one and need to do a bit of open-harp surgery and screw it up.
Any SP20 users with decent reviews out there?
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Bluzdude46
299 posts
Dec 03, 2009
11:44 AM
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SP20's are good Harps they were the first ones I customized myself and are pretty forgiving of novices in that aspect. Takes the comb/seal problem out of the picture. If you open up the back it really improves not only the loudness but the overall tone which I think is a touch warmer then MB's Good quality reeds and reedplates that hold up. I was using them as my Stage Harps until I started working on the MBs and buying Buddha Harps. They hold up nicely. I've got several that I've had for years and I have to tune them or adjust them a little now and then. I admit I don't use them as much now. Ryan has a SP20 "C" that I did. Ask him how he likes it.
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mickil
677 posts
Dec 03, 2009
12:02 PM
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tooka, I think you may have a point - not with the traitor thing, though.
I can't say whether my ears are good enough to distinguish between JI, compromised and ET on a note for note basis. What I can say, though, is that I prefer the sound of the first two for 2nd position stuff. The MB and its sisters, the SP20 and the MS harps, 1923s and similar harps just seem to sound 'blusier' to me.
As for the quality of SP20s, I know people have got duffs before, but that must be true of all OOTB harps. I've got a few of them: Low D, G, A, C and D, and they've all been fine. The only thing I didn't like was that the G seemed a little muted, but, I suppose that's true of many lower harps. I don't have that problem with my BR in the same key, that's one reason why after trying about a million harps, and spending about a billion quid, I think I'm sticking with those as my harp of choice. Very MB-ish sound, cheap, available, gorgeous covers, replacement parts. I'm digressing.
If you like your Suzukis, I think you'll like SP20s.
I was going to say something to you about the fast stuff but, I'll put it in the appropriate thread later on.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2009 12:08 PM
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Tuckster
282 posts
Dec 03, 2009
12:18 PM
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I have a couple of Bluesmasters. I thought they were comfortable and easy to play,but there was something about them that I didn't like. I could never put my finger on what it was. Now I know it's the ET. Guess after listening to the classic players for 20 years,my ears been attuned to JI,even though I wasn't consciencely aware of it. I think you'll like SP 20's.
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Aussiesucker
457 posts
Dec 03, 2009
12:25 PM
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My feelings are that the sound of a good Sp20 is hard to beat. What I have found hard to achieve is getting that good one. In all I have 6 Sp20s and only the Bb & Low D gets used. The others A G C B are awful!
With Suzuki no such problem ie out of the box they work.
I'm also not sure that it is the JI or ET that is the difference. I have an Sp20 in Bb which is a beautiful harp with a lovely warm tone wheras my Bluesmaster & Promaster in Bb are also really nice harps but have a harsher tone. That said I have tunes that I feel are suited to one more than the other & vice versa.
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djm3801
260 posts
Dec 03, 2009
12:29 PM
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I actually find Special 20's to be a great harp for the money. Hate marine bands. Special 20's have been as good out of teh box as the Delta Frost 9uses Suzuki plates) or even the Seydel Pro Soloists.
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congaron
315 posts
Dec 03, 2009
1:21 PM
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I have 3 and all three are very nice. A, B,And C harps. The C was given to me with "some issues" which a good cleaning resolved. I like them as much as the suzukis except for tone when i want raspy, reedy sound. Then the marine bands are hard to beat with suzukis a very close second to my ears. If you are careful, you can find some decent chords on suzukis that give you a really tough sound in hard rockin' music.
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Blackbird
122 posts
Dec 03, 2009
2:18 PM
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I've got a handfull of SP20's and like them as a close alternate to the Marine Bands, or the Weltmeister Blackbirds which are the smoothest harps I've played yet (made by Seydel, go figure...)
Nothing yet compares with Marine Band tone, but the playability and so far, durability of the SP20 is pretty comfy.
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harpinonfire
24 posts
Dec 03, 2009
2:32 PM
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Hey, Tooka. You ordered replacement plates for the special 20? They aren't part of the MS series. I've looked everywhere for special 20 plates with no luck. Or were they for someother of your harmonicas?
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isaacullah
476 posts
Dec 03, 2009
2:35 PM
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"Nothing yet compares with Marine Band tone, but the playability and so far, durability of the SP20 is pretty comfy. "
I agree completely. A Spec 20 sounds good, but it does NOT sound like a Marine Band. Spec 20's are smoother, and MB's have that brassy, buzzy, dirty, nasty, honkin' tone. IMO, you can get a closer sounding tone with an MS harp than with a Spec 20, but neither of them sounds like a MB. If wood is your enemy, you might consider to buy an after market comb (plenty of custom suppliers around, you know all them), I've had good success with this route. Or I suppose you can try to drill MB reedplates to match Spec20 combs and/or covers. Not sure how easy that is to do though... Probably easy buying blank combs from Buddah or Genesis and fitting them yourself. There's always the MB deluxe and the X-over if you are into spending some dough.
You know it strikes me that we ought to have a "show us your harps" thread where people post photos of their harp line ups. That way we can just all refer tot hat thread when we are trying to remember who plays what harps, who has customized harps this way or that way, etc. We can also just link it up when ever that question gets posed.
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
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tookatooka
826 posts
Dec 03, 2009
2:53 PM
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@harponfire@ Don't know where you are but you can get replacement plates SP20 from Harmonicas Direct in the UK and I believe from Harponline in Germany.
@Isaaculah@ I'm gonna try SP20 and see how I get on, if that don't work I may try the MS route. I don't want to get into drilling if I can help it. It just gets too expensive. I'm trying to narrow down to just one make if I can where spares etc are reasonably priced. I was talking to the man who runs Harmonicas Direct in the UK today and he was saying there's going to be a major price hike in replacement reedplates soon. I've already noticed that the Suzuki reeplates which were £12.50 a short while ago have gone up to £14.00 in the last couple of weeks.
He thinks the manufacturers are losing money selling reedplates and would rather we just bought new harps. Pity there's not an enterprising Chinese outfit about who could satisfy the demand for a high quality replacement reedplate at a reasonable price. They can make damned good counterfeit microprocessor chips so reedplates should be easy.
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bluzlvr
278 posts
Dec 03, 2009
2:55 PM
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After having ordered and tried Bushmans and Seydels (Delta Frosts & Soloist Pros)I've come to the conclusion that the Special 20 is the harp for me.
Of the two Seydels and two Bushmans I ordered, three of the four went bad within a month
The next time I restocked with Special 20s, and every one of them was awesome right out of the box.
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barbequebob
152 posts
Dec 03, 2009
3:03 PM
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If you're concerned about wanting JI rather than ET, you can retune any ET tuned harp that way yourself. If anyone needs to hear the differences between JI and ET, go to http://www.patmissin.com and he has sound files for both single notes as well as chords for both ET and JI so you can compare them to and they're being played on a key of C diatonic.
If you need to know the tuning layouts for many different diatonics that are NOT tuned to ET, I have them listed at either http://www.harmonicaspace.com or at http://www.deltafrost.com. If you don't want to be a member of either forum just to get them, go to the Delta Frost forum, and in the search feature, type in DIATONIC HARMONICA TUNINGS - AN UPDATE, and they're all there for you.
The Suzuki Manji that I recently got, I've already retuned it to 7 limit just intonation, which is what all Hohner harps other than solo tuned or the Golden Melody were tuned to prior to 1985, and the present day tuning for the Hering 1923 Vintage Harp and the just tuned version of the Suzuki Fabulous.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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tookatooka
828 posts
Dec 03, 2009
3:09 PM
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I have tried a bit of amateur tunning BBQ using the seventh string online tuner but I found it so difficult trying to get the strobe steady. It seems so sensitive and gave different readings each time I tried. I suppose that it needs a very constant air supply on the reeds which my mouth doesn't seem to provide.
Just been to your Bushman Notes and theres a lot of info there which will be usefull when I try again. Thanks.
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Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2009 3:17 PM
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LeonStagg
47 posts
Dec 03, 2009
3:40 PM
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tookatooka,
I started out with sp20's and have always liked them alot. (I tounge-block most of the time, so the plastic comb has always been smoother to me)
I've tried MBs, Bushmans, Seydels, etc. but always come back to the sp20. Great harps, and mine have held up real well. Good luck!
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RyanMortos
507 posts
Dec 03, 2009
4:20 PM
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I really like the special 20s and like bluzdude says, half the pain in the ass to do work on than the marine bands. And yeah, I'm trying but I still can't customize my harmonicas as well :( . We need to jam sometime before the first snow, lol!
I don't know, all this and that about how lousy hohner is from everyone else and I still prefer the harmonicas I have gotten from them (marine bands, special 20s, golden melodies) to the seydels and suzukis I've tried (for various reasons). I don't think ET harmonicas are completely out of the question though for other types of music.
I say there's no shame in it!
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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Gwythion
25 posts
Dec 03, 2009
5:16 PM
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I used to think that Special 20's sounded like wooden harps and not plasticky like other plastic harps.
Since learning about ET/JI I realise that the difference in tone I call "plastic" or "wooden" is actually the temperament.
I wouldn't be surprised if other people also thought they can't tell the difference between ET and JI because they think the difference they hear is down to the comb material.
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528hemi
59 posts
Dec 03, 2009
5:38 PM
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I have 10 SP20's. Be prepared to Gap all of them OOTB. That is all I have to do and they play great. Can get all the overblows. I recently bought 4 Manjis which I am liking alot. The Manjis play so easily especially the higher notes. Those are the 2 harps I am sticking with. I love the Hammond as well but the SP20's I buy for 27.95, Manjis 45.00
Again the Sp20's are very inconsistant OOTB but gap them and they are nice.
528hemi
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djm3801
261 posts
Dec 03, 2009
6:10 PM
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Some day I want to go buy a new car and have them say "Oh, it is not going to be much good on the track until you take the engine apart and tune it up. In fact, going to run like crap darn near anywhere until you learn how to take the engine apart and tune it up. All you have to do it take off the head, re-gap the valves, re grind the seats, re-flatten the head, soak it in beeswax, slap her together with real bolts, and torque her down good. We was expecting you'd want to be a mechanic."
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congaron
316 posts
Dec 03, 2009
6:18 PM
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When you find a $35 car..it could happen.
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jawbone
177 posts
Dec 03, 2009
6:51 PM
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According to Brendan Power, Suzuki is looking at other tunings. I think he may have been putting that bug in their ear, as they could be missing out a lot of business. Until then, I'll keep cramming Big River plates under my Bluesmaster covers.
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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gene
289 posts
Dec 03, 2009
7:32 PM
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djm3801,
Thank you for expressing my feelings!
Overblows...To hell with them.
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barbequebob
157 posts
Dec 03, 2009
7:39 PM
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Brendan fowarded an E-mail I sent to him when I requested the tuning setup for the Manji, which he was kind enough to send me, and I made mention of the need for other tunings such as Low C thru Low
F#, availability in either 7LJI or 19LJI (which is a BIG reason why the vast majority of traditional blues players, especially here in the USA, despise ANY Asian made harp, including Suzuki), and also Country Tuning, and he agreed with me 100%, especially with JI, believing that they`re missing out on a huge market far more competive vs. Hohner, and in the US, the blues market is huge. I think with it`s something that may possibly happen in a couple of years. At this moment, the only JI harp they make is the 7LJI version of the Fabulous, and those cost $230 each, and I can get myself a custom MB for about $50 less and more, and it`ll bd a better harp.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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CJames
52 posts
Dec 04, 2009
7:32 AM
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I only have one sp20 in A which was fine ootb, after a bit of tweaking it turned out to be a really lovely harp, Im waiting for one in C to come, but i'm keen to try out some suzuki's. I think i even prefer the sp20 to golden melody - i absolutely love the protruding plastic comb. really really comfortable to play and a big plus in my book on standard harp playability.
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clarksdale
27 posts
Dec 07, 2009
10:18 PM
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Special 20 is a good harp. For some reason i'm not crazy about the stock tone though. Playability is good.
I was a DIE HARD Suzuki Harpmaster fan. Still love em'. After playing every brand of Harp out there except for BUSHMAN, i decided it was time to finish up and order a couple.
I bought a Delta Frost to see what the fuss is all about. Good harp, but since it is contracted through Suzuki by BUSHMAN, it's basically a HARPMASTER with different Reeds.
BUT i also order a BUSHMAN SOUL's VOICE !!!! And THAT is the HARP YOU NEED MY FRIEND!!!!
It's got the comfort of a HarpMaster style, but it's Just Tuning which is great. Also it's made in Germany and has riveted reeds with a profile similar to the special 20 BUT has a MUCH better tone and the quality seems superior to me.
They are about $40 online, but i found a store on the NET selling them for $25!!!!!!
If you are interested in trying one, email me from my site www.overblowharmonica.com
And PS, the MANJI is also real nice, got one in A for about $40. The tuning is more of a compromise but sounds pretty good on blues.
BUT for right now,
" i'm a SOUL('s VOICE) MAN!!!!!!! "
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$Daddy Rich$
"The Blues is Ok!"
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tookatooka
838 posts
Dec 08, 2009
2:27 AM
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OK Got the Sp20 and found it to be really quite good. I did a minor regap but to be honest it wasn't really necessary. Overall it was better than I expected. I haven't ascertained the differences between my ET Suzukis and the JI Sp20 yet but I need to play it a little longer and get more familiar with it.
Overall, I'm quite happy with the Sp20. (so far).
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jawbone
179 posts
Dec 08, 2009
8:09 AM
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I like the sound of the 20 but see if your suzy covers will fit. My only complaint was the sharpness of the bottom left corner, it scrubbed my lip up quite a bit. (I'm very sensitive ;-) snk, snk
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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isaacullah
484 posts
Dec 08, 2009
8:16 AM
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Yeah, I have to take a file to those corners. They are a bit rough and pointy. I also put a little beeswax over them... I must have "sensitive" lips too! LOL! :)
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
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tookatooka
840 posts
Dec 08, 2009
8:36 AM
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Suzuki BluesMaster covers would be too long. The SP20 is exactly 100MM length, BluesMaster is 103.09MM.
Hole centres for coverplates; SP20 = 88.54MM BlueMaster = 87.4MM.
HarpMaster/Delta Frost Covers would probably fit with a little bit of work.
My lips are OK so no problem. Tough, manly English Lips. Maybe if you stopped using the wifes lipstick, yours would toughen up too ;)
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jawbone
180 posts
Dec 08, 2009
10:47 AM
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On my 20's I would build a little "ramp" using JB Weld, just to get my "very sensitive" lip over the "ouchie" part -(OK, I'm just getting silly now);-)
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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tookatooka
844 posts
Dec 08, 2009
3:15 PM
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@jawbone@ You said "Until then, I'll keep cramming Big River plates under my Bluesmaster covers".
Do the Big River plates fit suzuki combs?
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barbequebob
176 posts
Dec 08, 2009
3:36 PM
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Unfortunately, they don`t.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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jawbone
181 posts
Dec 08, 2009
8:24 PM
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Ok Ok - I'll tell you one more time!!!!! ;-) the operative word is cram - just kidding!!
I trim off the ends of the BR plates, round the corners, elongate the holes in the reed plate that accepte the cover plate bolts, then trim the lip off the back of the Suzy combs, elongate the centre hole in the comb to accept the reed plate screw, then slap 'em together. Believe it or not I can do this faster than retuning the suzi's and enjoy the process more. One day I'll get back to tuning but I want to build a bellows first.
So, if anybody has some Bluesmaster covers they want to trade for Sp. 20, harpmaster, Big River - let me know!!
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Last Edited by on Dec 09, 2009 5:51 AM
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congaron
336 posts
Dec 08, 2009
9:48 PM
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I guess promaster/bluesmaster cover plates fit a special 20 with just a hole redrill on each end.
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jawbone
182 posts
Dec 09, 2009
5:53 AM
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@congaron - I move the holes in the reed plates and combs, not the covers. I didn't clarify that in my earlier post (I have done so now)
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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congaron
339 posts
Dec 09, 2009
10:58 AM
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I figured that. I saw tha special 20 mwith promaster covers on the mel bay website harmonica workbench. I use my promaster covers on harpmasters and vice versa. Both are great combinations with the promaster very similar to a marine band in size that way..but heavier.
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nacoran
515 posts
Dec 09, 2009
8:38 PM
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Does anyone stamp or otherwise make covers from scratch?
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mankycodpiece
10 posts
Dec 10, 2009
9:49 AM
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coming from chromatic,i thought i'd try the valved promaster.i've been at it for a week now and still can't take to it.i think it's just too sweet for what i want
i have 6 SP20s and just love them.one of them is the low F.when i want to chugg with a tinny sound i can feel the reeds going at it on my teeth when they touch.
i know i'm gettin a couple of harpmasters as Christmas presents,so i'll see how those go.
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barbequebob
185 posts
Dec 10, 2009
1:47 PM
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Mankuycodpiece, you need to take more time to "shed with it and get used to all of its quirks, like anything else, as there's always gonna be some sort of a learning curve when going from model to model, different types of tuning setups, etc. The valves also does change some of the sound of the instrument just like it does on a chromatic. The valves soften the harshness of the ET chords that are on those harps because they're dampening the upper harmonic overtones, and on harmonicas, they're the even numbered ones, which to the human ear, is percieved as being very harsh, especially when played real hard. You need at least a good month of woodshedding to get used to it.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2009 3:04 PM
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hvyj
16 posts
Dec 10, 2009
1:55 PM
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There is adjustment period when you have been playing another brand of harp and start to play Suzukis, because the holes on a Suzuki are slightly closer together than on most other brands, and it is enough of a difference that it may take a little while to get used to.
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mankycodpiece
11 posts
Dec 11, 2009
8:42 AM
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having re-read my last post,i didn't make ti clear that it'sthe sound of the promaster that doesn't appeal to me as the SP20s do.
i can play the promaster well enough(my level),i just prefer the sound of the SP20s
having paid £45 for the promaster,it won't be going in the bin,i may just take the valves off.i'll just see how it goes for a while.
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tookatooka
850 posts
Dec 11, 2009
8:52 AM
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I too have a ProMaster. Although it is a well made harp and looks the part, I prefer to play my BluesMasters. I think it's the metal comb that doesn't agree with me. I'm enjoying the SP20 though.
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congaron
347 posts
Dec 11, 2009
12:29 PM
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I use my promasters for the "pretty songs" we play. The tone seems more "sweet" than the harpmaster or even the special 20. I have one in low f i really like to use for rhythm behind my lead guitar player's solos and some more melodic solos I do. we play in alot of keys and I use my G harpmaster the same way, but it's more raspy in tone. Gives variety to our sound when I play harp. I really like them all!
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