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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Legit question
Legit question
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phogi
143 posts
Dec 10, 2009
3:48 AM
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Why is it that harp players tend to trash harp players more than anyone else? To listen to some that post here you'd think that a desire to play harp instantly makes you dumber, less musically adept, ruins your ear, and causes otherwise good musicians to just randomly make noise; can't follow changes, play too hard, can't hear intonation, etc...
This is not true of other instruments to the same degree it is with harp. I think guitar playing comes close.
Possible reasons?
1) Harp is just dammed hard to make it sound good.
2) No one really takes the harp seriously
3) Dude is trying to point out that he's better than the average bear (how about just playing? You shouldn't have to tell people you're better)
4) Bad harpin' hurts! (most likely reason)
5) The timbre of the instrument is really the most important part?
6) Lots of bad harp players?
7) Bob Dylan
I like this possible reason
8) There is no firmly established pedagogy, to which all point all too, and say 'that's how you learn.'
What do you think about this phenomenonan?
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mickil
704 posts
Dec 10, 2009
5:01 AM
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I don't really think that harp players do tend to trash each other more than anyone else. Web forums - where cheap shots are par for the course - might make it seem that way.
Still, back in the early 90s, when I was a music undergrad, I can remember how I was always banging on about, 'Why are musicians such bitches?' Honestly, amongst my circle, someone was always slating someone else. I'd imagine you get it in any walk of life. Though, I'd hazard a guess that a lot of muso types are a bit rougher round the edges in their delivery.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
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scrybe314
34 posts
Dec 10, 2009
5:01 AM
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phogi, you forgot reasons 9, 10, and 11; in order, Bob Dylan, Billy Joel, and Bob Dylan. In seriousness, I don't think this phenomenon isn't specific to harp at all; it seems all musicians who play instrument X will rag on musicians who play instrument X. However, I think reasons 7, 9-11 actually DO have something to do with it. "Mr. Tambourine Man" is most people's impression of what harmonica SHOULD sound like, so when guys like us who want to sound good come along, they just don't know how to discern. I've had this problem at gigs, where I've botched up something tremendously and no one notices.
In short, we've trained our ears to catch what's wrong, and that's why we're ragging on each other the most. I do like your idea, however; would you mind expanding it?
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toddlgreene
230 posts
Dec 10, 2009
5:17 AM
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I don't necessarily see what you call 'trashing' so much on this forum, rather what would be considered as constructive criticism. Harmonica doesn't sound any worse in the hands of a beginner than a violin, guitar, trombone, drums, etc. There are many posts by users such as BBQ Bob, Adam and others-experienced, road-tested knowlegeable players-who are obviously trying to discourage bad habits in newer or less-experienced players. Maybe this is what you refer to as trashing-I'm not sure. I see it as solid advice for the most part, albeit delivered without kid gloves. And as far as references to Dylan, or any other 'minimalist' players, this is primarily a 'blues harmonica' forum where the majority of regulars are striving to NOT sound like that. Yes, in the general public's ears who have only Dylan and other similar 'players' as a reference to what the instrument should be played like, they wouldn't understand our passion for taking the instrument beyond that level. But, that can be said for anything. For instance, go buy an off-the-shelf radio controlled airplane complete with a controller from a big box store and show up to a local RC club meeting-you'll be flamed big-time!
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~Todd L. Greene, Devout Pedestrian
"listen to what you like for inspiration, but find your own voice"
crescentcityharmonicaclub@gmail.com
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2009 5:25 AM
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rbeetsme
70 posts
Dec 10, 2009
5:38 AM
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Phogi, I agree, good thread. I guess it's because it looks like a toy and plays like a toy in the wrong hands. I think the general public has low expectations concerning how a harmonica can sound.
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hvyj
14 posts
Dec 10, 2009
5:41 AM
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Because a harmonica doesn't have keys or frets (or a mouthpiece that won't let you play a note without using proper embouchure), once some persons can get a single note, bend some holes and understand what harp to use in order to play in second position, they are tempted to think they can play. And since it's actually hard to hit a really bad note playing major key blues in second position, they are able to delude themselves. Unfortunately, many such players are also resistant to learning any practical music theory when given the opportunity. But they are usually not reluctant about taking whatever opportunities they can to jam or play with other musicians in public, because it can be exhilarating. And when exhilarated, it's easy to get carried away. This is a combination of characteristics that combine to give harmonica players in general a bad reputation and make it more difficult for those of use who can play to be afforded credibility.
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scottb
84 posts
Dec 10, 2009
6:33 AM
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Guitarist are by FAR worse than harp players!
How many guitarist does it take to change a light bulb?
Six. One to change the bulb and the other 5 to stand around saying how they could it better.
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Tuckster
304 posts
Dec 10, 2009
7:59 AM
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I think part of it is the cheap entry fee.That and the fact that you can get a tune out of it without any instruction or music theory knowledge. Whereas with say guitar, you have to be at least semi serious to invest the money. Then,unless you are blessed,you need to get instruction books just to play a tune.
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hvyj
15 posts
Dec 10, 2009
9:20 AM
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How many harmonica players does it take to change a light bulb? Six: One to change the light bulb and five to stand around discussing how Little Walter must have done it.
Someone once said that the world needs another harp player imitating Little Walter licks about as much as the world needs another Elvis impersonator.
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Blackbird
124 posts
Dec 10, 2009
11:54 AM
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hvyi,
What we need is an Elvis impersonator who plays harp like Little Walter.
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oldwailer
963 posts
Dec 10, 2009
12:12 PM
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It seems to be in the nature of musicians in general to believe that they are more highly evolved than everybody else. I don't think this only applies to harpers.
I do think it's both humorous and typical of us harpers that this thread that asks the question why do we trash other players--offers as a possible reason a trashing of Bob Dylan--who has been called "the voice of a generation" and has sold millions of records. I can only wish I had been as bad as Dylan. . .
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congaron
341 posts
Dec 10, 2009
12:48 PM
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I have told a couple people "I play guitar and harp as well as Dylan, but he might be a better singer." It's always good for a laugh.
I guess the subjective nature of music (see discussions on tone, mics, amps, overblows) Opens you up to this from the start.
Its forum protocol i think. There will be every sort of individual, with every sort of opinion and every sort of delivery of that opinion.
Subjectively, some think the harmonica is WAY harder than every other instrument. I doubt profession musicians who play harmonica on the side other would agree with that assessment. Everybody has their opinion on what comes easy and what comes hard. Some would say " I think it's the easiest instrument to learn." Someone might say "yeah, but you don't really know how to play."
Example: Somebody posted a video of Buddy Greene at carnegie hall. The responses were varied from soup to nuts, including an opinion that playing the William Tell Overature and other classical music somehow looked like a silly stunt, further cheapening the lowly reputation of the glorious harmonica. At carnegie hall to a standing ovation, for crying out loud! What do you think would have happened in the thread if it had been Adam or Buddha in the video?
People will be people. I try not to worry about it and filter as needed. There's good info in every legitimate forum once you learn the personalities.
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MrVerylongusername
683 posts
Dec 10, 2009
12:58 PM
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The harmonica is affordable.
It is easy to play in tune at even the most basic level.
With just a little technique under your belt you can play passable blues by ear.
The only music theory you need is to know what key the music is in.
As far as I know that makes it unique. I cannot imagine becoming competent on guitar, sax or piano without any harmony theory
For many people that's all they want and it's all they need and there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone who does that. It's probably why most of us started on harp. Unfortunately being a musician takes a little more work: theory, etiquette, understanding of space and dynamics. It's the guys that don't understand the difference who give harp players a bad name. The one's that go to jams and play loudly out of tune without giving the other musicians any space. Even worse is the "Gus" (those who read harp-l should know what I mean) who tries to barge his way onto the stage to jam with the band.
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LittleJoeSamson
162 posts
Dec 10, 2009
1:11 PM
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hvvy was pretty spot on.
The fact that harmonica is a "blind" instrument is also a factor.
In all honestly, though...most other harpers are like a brotherhood, with some sisters. Of all the other players I know or have encountered, most have been friendly and helpful. Even many of the big names are very personable. ( Just tread lightly asking about tone ). Can't hide the gear, but one can the internals.
I've only had three other harpers that I would term jerks. One was a decent player when he wasn't drunk/high, which was seldom. He did have somewhat of a rep from earlier days, and had a hole-in-the-wall dive bar where they had music and jams. Outwardly, he was friendly; but he heard me play at other venues. He never called me up to play at his joint, so there must have been some jealosy or other issue....but the guy obviously had other problems.
The other guys are marginal players with bad attitudes overall.
So, three out of at least a hundred is not all that bad!
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barbequebob
183 posts
Dec 10, 2009
1:40 PM
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Some people will percieve constructive criticism as trashing no matter what and that isn't just something among harp players alone by a long shot because I've seen that perception among people who DON'T play harmonica. Some of it may be ego, self-esteem issues, or what not, but If I were gonna trash somebody, believe me, it wouldn't be pretty.
Many people in the music industry are often very brutally honest and you have to learn not to take things personally or you're gonna be a wreck and when you're getting criticized, it's NOT about you personally, because unlike some, most people in the industry can seperate the personal from the professional, but there are people who have a difficult time seperating that.
In some ways, watching a show like American Idol, where people in the audience think Simon Cowell is a flat out a** h***, he's somewhat more typical, and trust me, from being in the business, he's an absolute sweetheart compared to some of the people I've met in the industry, and if you're gonna be in it, you do have to grow some thick skin because you are gonna be judged, like it or not, and most everyone on this forum or any other forum does it at some point.
Many things I try to teach are things I've learned along the way, some of them the hard way, some from seeing the real deal first hand, and I try to get this across to make things easier, but for some, the hard way is the only way some people can learn, but unfortunately, some won't learn at all. With whatever advice, lessons, etc., that I've given, and someone does wwll with it, it's an awesome feeling knowing that what you did lead them to a much better path.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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congaron
342 posts
Dec 10, 2009
1:46 PM
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One of the reasons I ended up on this forum is the intellectual level of the Gussow youtube videos.
This is good teaching at it's root level. I spent years as a flight instructor and flight examiner in the United States Air force, teaching and evaluating people who came in off the sidewalk and walked out as B-52 aviators. There are fundamental principles of instruction I saw in the Gussow videos that make them hands-down the best overall instructional material anybody could ever dream of for free....or even for a beginner wanting to pay money. Adam IS a teacher as well as a musician. A teacher can teach what they know ("giving it all away") without pretending it is the end of the knowledge path.
Many musicians believe they have reached the end...for them that will prove to be true. That's not to say they can do everything that can be done. They simply are where they choose to be.
Beyond the intermediate instruction level, I don't know about materials. I'm not there yet. I strongly suspect it's also true there...Adam recommends Dave Barret materials as well. This is another thing that draws me here...humility. That's not to say it is the only character trait displayed by all forum members. Of course not.
For me, as a rank beginner, I need all the input I can get. It needs to be taught according to what i know to be solid teaching principles for it to be credible. That's me. I won't even try something taught a different way. Teaching techniques that skip over basic fundamentals to impress the student don't get my attention at all. Certain techniques of instruction will simply fall on my deaf ears, or blind eyes in this case. It's unnecessary to pay them any heed when top-notch material is available without the fuss.
Credibility for me comes from a positive approach. I obviously see and agree with your observations here. it's common on the web. I choose to ignore the negative inputs and act on the positives...among other filtering techniques that let me flush stuff I find, well...unneeded.
I'm really blessed to be in a band that is letting me grow into it on the harp. I was enlisted as a vocalist/percussionist, but coincidentally was re-trying the harmonica for the umpteenth time. I come here to try and broaden my perspective, since my band obviously doesn't play everything. As a musician, my trumpet experience makes me lean toward jazz and rock. My band is a blues/rock band. I have much to learn. I take the little generic digs with a grain of salt, realizing a youtube video played in a room with a backing track..or not..is nothing like performing live. I won't pretend it is, won't accept/believe any input implying it is, have enough live performance experience to know what my audience roars to and appreciates and add it all up to learn as much as possible.
Adam knows this too, as evidenced in his videos. Videos of his performances also bear this out...live is the best.
As teaching tools, videos are fantastic. Don't take the paragraph above the wrong way. What I'm saying it, if your video gets slammed here...learn from it and see what a real audience thinks before you make significant changes. Try everything, but realize the limitations of recorded tone and what people are hearing it on too. Specifically talking tone here.
Also realize room acoustics and the gear you use can make what you heard when you were playing sound different than what comes out in the recording, unless you are really recording on headphones into a mixer and hard drive (which I recommend you do as an eye-opener.) Assessing "groove" on the videos usually embedded here is likely to be based on a recording that is not adequate to do so if a backing track is playing in room...not like in a studio. Only a real front porch style recording without a track behind it can really tell you if you can keep time and play too. Be your own hardest critic and you'll see what i mean.
Have fun! It's still a toy, but now it sings too.
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bluzlvr
282 posts
Dec 10, 2009
1:47 PM
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Why is Bob Dylan's harp playing continuously snarkily trashed on this site? (Is "snarkily" a word? Well, it should be.)
One of the beautiful things about the harmonica is that you can make music with it by simply breathing in and out through it.
Every harmonica solo doesn't have to be a virtuosic endeavor.
After all these years I can't imagine any other kind of harp playing in Dylan's music.
I'm sure Bob Dylan doesn't give a culo de raton what anybody thinks of his harp playing.
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barbequebob
186 posts
Dec 10, 2009
1:50 PM
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In Dylan's music, the harp is NOT the star of the show because his songs and songwriting is what's the star of the show, and that's basically what the folk music thing is all about and instrumental virtuosity in that genre is geneerally a lot lower on the totem pole.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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congaron
343 posts
Dec 10, 2009
1:52 PM
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exactly. My dylan comments are not intended to trash him...just to poke a little fun at my own vocals.
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barbequebob
187 posts
Dec 10, 2009
3:23 PM
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A big part of the public's peerception of the instrument also comes from the way many harp players are carrying themselves and the way they go about things, and unfortunately, many of them fall into many of the negative stereotypes that are percieved and a lot of players either haven't got a clue or just don't give a damn, and then you constantly hear what I call the "Rodney Dangefield Syndrome", AKA I get no respect. Many harp players just don't take the time to really reassess how they go about things because more often than not, it's the way they go about things that often LEGITIMITELY labels them with those negetaive stereotypes they often have no clue that they're often guilty of perpetuating.
One thing I was told in my early years as a pro that for newer musicians I run into trying to become a pro is that many times, music fans/hobbyists are the ones that tend to do the vast majority of trashing other musicians, regardless of the instrument they play, or for the genres of music being played, and very few pros are gonna publicly trash other musicians, especially in front of music fans/hobbyists because many times, they may be looking at a pro to help legitimize their beliefs and either knowingly or unknowingly twist one's words to fit their beliefs (and form their own little cliques, etc.), and too often those words come out meaning something entirely different than what was actually being said.
One thing to remember with the internet. What might sound OK when spoken, those same words when written can come across entirely different to other people, and vice versa, meaning some people can take something you may believe as rather innoccuos could wind up sounding poisonous to someone else without meaning to be so and I've seen that quite a lot and it's easy to get "computer courage" much in the way like some people get liquid courage when they get drunk.
One thing I've learned over the years is that what works right in one genre often will be completely wrong in another and judging things just from a genre that you're familiar with when listening to something you normally don't can color your thinking in a very negative way and that tends to be too much of the "one size fits all" mentality, which I've clearly learned over the years, that is totally wrong headed thinking.
Has someone like myself, or Adam, or a few other pros on this form or other forums have ever been humbled along the way? Absolutely!!! It may knock one's ego down a peg or two or maybe more, but if you look at it as a legitimite learning experience, you can take a lot of positive things from that, but if you're one of those who can't/won't deal with cricism of any kind, forget it.
When you get in a pro level, you are gonna get criticized, and like it or not, you have to learn to deal with it by getting thick skin and let it roll off your shoulders and move on. When I see Simon Cowell critiquing someone on American Idol, it's a first test for these people to see if they have thick skin because if they wanna be a pro, they have to develop that or they're screwed and they'll never make it thru in the business.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2009 3:26 PM
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nacoran
519 posts
Dec 10, 2009
4:12 PM
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Good point about how people can take the same words and 'hear' them differently when they are written, BBQ. Oddly enough, that's why there are emoticons! They seem silly and hokey, but sometimes if you think someone might take something the wrong way a little smiley face is all it takes to let them know that you're on their side, and it sure is a lot quicker than writing out 4 pages of comments to color and shade each thing you said exactly right so you don't offend anyone. :)
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Bluzdude46
305 posts
Dec 11, 2009
8:03 AM
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I just wanna discourage all you younger guys as much as I can. I mean for the older guys who had to learn however we could and play in the streets or join with any guitar hero we could for a chance to play as a sideman just so we could develop what we do. To see y'all with your internet lessons and Youtube videos and tabs....Tabs??? Hell I never even heard of a Tab 5 years ago, better quality Harmonicas (trust me Hohner is far better now then they were in the 70's and 80's)We kinda resent it just a little.
And because of this immediate information at your fingers there are an awfully lot of really good Harp Players that have been at it less then 5 years. And hell in truth I don't wanna compete with you. So If the Older Gents that are a bit seasoned sound a little cranky and critical, don't worry, you're getting the better part of the deal and just like with our children we expect you to be better.
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JoshTheMagish
74 posts
Dec 11, 2009
8:21 AM
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its not just harp. Im more of a guitar player then harp and iv found that everyone has their own idea of what good playing is. In guitar if your not shredding many would say your inferior to a metal head that does that stuff with ease.
the same thing applies with harp and other instruments, playing fast is often equated to skill.
I saw a child music prodigy in a interview say he didn't like the term they used to describe him (forget what it was ) but he said it meant someone who can play fast and that music is not about playing fast.
blues harp is interesting as your talking about a style, and everyone thinks they know what makes blues the blues. I look at it this way... the real masters prolly never thought about it much... they just did it.
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Tuckster
305 posts
Dec 11, 2009
11:27 AM
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@Bluzdude- I hear you! Most of my 17 years playing,I fumbled in the dark. Few resources but lots of rumors and innuendos. Its amazing the quick progress made by some of the newer players. We can thank Adam for playing a big part in that.
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Bluzdude46
308 posts
Dec 11, 2009
11:54 AM
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Agreed Tuck, Adam it's Your Fault!!!!
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phogi
146 posts
Dec 11, 2009
12:08 PM
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BBQ
I'm totally with you on criticism. Good criticism is valuable stuff. I was just today telling a group a students how well they performed at their concert last night. Then I said, 'and you guys know me, if it wasn't good, I would tell you it wasn't good.' They laughed knowingly. An honest critic is a valuable thing.
I still think though, that alot of it is the historical lack of high quality instructional materials, as well as the fact that most people learn by ear, which makes things a little harder to keep track of, education wise (for me, anyway).
With all the material out these days I think there will be a bumber crop of quality harpin in the near future.
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barbequebob
193 posts
Dec 11, 2009
12:11 PM
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There's a lot of truth in what you're saying!!! I wish I had one-thousandth of what's out there now when I started back in the 70's.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 12:11 PM
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Bluzdude46
309 posts
Dec 11, 2009
12:55 PM
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I also agree Bob, and on the criticism? If you can't take what is said in here then you don't have a thick enough skin to get on a Stage. I never claimed to be a great Harp player. What I do is a combination of Vocals, Harp, Energy and Showmanship. The Bands I've been in and front really get after it aggressively. It's my style and it's far from technically correct. But if you're not into it? I'm ok with you movin' to the next joint to see what they got!!!
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