GermanHarpist
804 posts
Dec 14, 2009
5:04 PM
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Well, there was some discussion on another thread about embossing. What about the ones that can, share the information they have?
I did a little embossing as I gathered mostly from Buddhas vid, overblow.com, ElkRivers vid. Which said that you should pass over the slot with an embossing tool to push down, and sideways the corners of the reed slot.
There were definitely some results as I could clearly see a narrowing of the gap while holding the reedplate against the light. However, I have difficulty on judging afterwords how much they actually affected the tone of the note.
There is one thing I figured out: You have to slide of the reed slot with a certain pressure (which in my opinion is rather strong). However it must not overpass a certain amount. If you press to strong while gliding over the slot the metal surface that you are embossing will fraction and it will feel ruff (through the tool).
Now, as just mentioned I feel that you have to press the tool relatively hard against the slot to have an effect and a do it considerable amount of times (although it was described different from Tinus and Chris, who both say that you have to do it very few times with little force).
Before plinking the first time I usually have to emboss quite a while. Once there are (and I removed) the first burrs then the ration embossing/plinking goes more and more over to plinking-time.
As I mentioned I emboss with quite some force and persistence. To prevent the metal from fractionning I tried applying very little grease/fat to my embossing tool (tuning fork). There surely are some unwanted side-effect, but the tuning fork slides much easier over the slot. And this means that I can apply a considerable stronger force without bruising the metal.
I think that both tinus and buddha mentioned that you should only emboss in one direction (the direction of the reed). It could be that this offers a more regular structure of the embossed surface and especially the new edge that is created by embossing. However, once I applied grease I emboss in both directions (otherwise I would have to slide over the slot 80 times instead of 40 times....).
As mentioned above I use a tuning fork to emboss. Especially because I haven't found an object with such a smooth surface that won't fracture the metal. However, the problem is that you can't slide over the whole hole and it leaves some unembossed bit at the open end of the reed slot. It should best be something flat as seen here so that you could emboss the slot all to the end (and maybe also the short/small edge).
While all I see with my eyes is a fine reflecting line - the embossing mark, here's a drawing on how I imagine the effect of embossing on the edge of the slot.
(of course the embossed surface should be rounded like the embossing tool, I drew it straight for convenience)
Here are all my resources for information that I found:
overblow.com
Buddhas vid
Elkrivers vid
Harmonica Sessions
Now this is pretty much all I know. I'm sure I do it completely wrong (way too much force and persistence, grease????). How do you do it? How could I do it better? Anymore information/experiences...?
If I have time I'll upload a vid so that you can point out my embossing mistakes as you see me do them :).
GH
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germanharpist on YT. =;-)
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2009 5:08 PM
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MrVerylongusername
695 posts
Dec 14, 2009
6:31 PM
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You should buy Rupert Oyslers video. He explains how when reeds are stamped out in the facory it puts a slight arc longitudinally along the reed. He flattens the reed, which increases its life and also slightly widens the reed - achieving the same thing as embossing.
He also has a section on embossing where he uses a glass-cutter and an electric engraver to push the edges in by cutting grooves very close to the edge of the slot. This has the advantage of working the full length of the slot and not deforming the metal edges so much.
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2009 6:32 PM
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oldwailer
970 posts
Dec 14, 2009
6:59 PM
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You might also want to get Buddha's tool kit--I think he used to offer some instructions along with the tools. I have had training from Buddha himself--and I have the Rupert Oysler DVD's, which I'll have to go watch again--since I don't remember the bit about the glass cutter.
I believe Rupert Oysler's DVD has a lot of great information on how to customize harps--and even GM's. However, any instruction you could get from Buddha--maybe by Skype, would sure as hell put you on the right track. . .
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Ryan
45 posts
Dec 14, 2009
7:37 PM
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Wow, that seems like an awful lot of force/repition. Sometimes I use a socket & I wonder if using something with a larger radius has any different effect. It would seem to me that a larger radius socket or tool would push the metal at more of an angle, so maybe that has some effect on closing the slot more. When I emboss with a socket it doesn't seem to need nearly as much work as your doing before the reed catches on the slot and needs to be plinked. Although I have noticed that sometimes a couple of reeds take a lot more embossing work before the reed sticks.
Personally I have a tough time seeing a real visual difference from before and after embossing, but when I play I can deffinately tell the difference. I've even done some "controlled" experiments with it, so I know for sure its working, in some cases it has quite a large effect. Sometimes after I emboss it'll look to me like there's no noticeable visual difference, but then I'll run a socket extremely lightly over the slot and it'll cause the reed to get stuck. I'm sure it's possible to get the slots much closer than I can get them though, I guess I'd probably need some expert tips/secrets and a lot of practice before I could get them as close as some customisers do.
You may want to look into trying the method using as exacto-blade that elkriverdave describes in the video. This method will allow you to move brass far more quickly, and will allow you to emboss closer and more evenly (assuming you're really good at it). When you emboss with a socket (or similar tool) it's harder to get it even, ie. some parts of the slot will be closer than other parts. The problem with the exacto-blade method is it's more difficult, it takes a lot more skill and accuracy. Also it's a lot easier to seriously mess up a harp using this method if you don't know what you're doing or haven't perfected your technique. The socket method is a lot more user friendly (and easier to teach online) than the more precise methods that some of the customisers use. I'm guessing this one of the reasons Buddah taught that method (that and the fact that some of the more effective/precise methods are considered trade secrets).
Edit: BTW, I'm certainly no expert on this stuff, so if I've got something wrong, or someone disagrees with something please let me know. I'm always interested in learning more. I'm hoping Buddah is still thinking about doing a pre-spah harp customising workshop. That would be the perfect time and place for me to be able to attend, and I think it would work well for others who are going to spah and want to attend the workshop.
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2009 7:49 PM
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nacoran
529 posts
Dec 14, 2009
8:31 PM
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I don't know if Richard Sleigh has a video on it, but if he does, watch it! I've seen lots of people explaining harp fixin' in videos and he does it as well as anyone, and he has an advantage... he seems to have a higher quality web cam than anyone else.
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sorin
117 posts
Dec 14, 2009
10:13 PM
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Just because the video is on youtube , it doesn't mean that people use a webcam.
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Ryan
46 posts
Dec 14, 2009
10:16 PM
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I just went and took a look at some of my higher quality harps that I embossed awhile back, and now that I look at them again I can in fact see a noticable visual difference between the holes that are embossed and the ones that aren't (I don't always bother to emboss every hole, I just stick to the ones that I think are the most important and do the most good). Some of them are actually really close, so close that I don't think I'd be able to get them any closer (using a socket) without the reed getting stuck to the point where it can't be plinked free. When it gets stuck like that you need to use a shim to free it, but that scrapes away some of the work you've done, so you have to start embossing it again to get it back to where it was.
I got about 5 Huang Star Performer harps for dirt cheap, I figured for the price I got them for I might as well buy them and if they turn out to be awful I could at least use them to practice customising techniques on. Well they turned to be absolutely terrble, seriously they're among the worst harps I've tried. I'd heard a few respectable players say good things about them, so maybe the ones they got were better.
Anyways, the reedslot tolerances are really wide (part of the problem) so I did some embossing work on them. Now on these harps I really do have a problem seeing any noticable visual difference after emossing. Ironically, even though I couldn't see the difference, these harps are the ones where the embossing made the most noticeable difference in playability from before and after. This doesn't mean they became good harps, only that the embossing did in fact make a substantial difference. Due to the fact that the tolerances started out so wide I wasn't able to get them nearly as close as my other harps (not that it can't be done). I think the reason that I had trouble seeing the change in reedslot tolerances on the Huangs is also due to the wide slot tolerances they had. Embossing really only moves the edges in a very small distance, like a fraction of millimeter or something like that. So I think the wide tolerances make that small change harder to see, but it does suprisingly make a noticable difference in playability.
Sorry this and my last post are this long, clearly I'm getting to be rather verbose.
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Bluzdude46
316 posts
Dec 15, 2009
6:50 AM
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I've used Buddha's method of using a small socket and embossing as tight as possible then plinking and going over the edges until the reed is clear again. gets them as tight as possible and you don't need to be an engineer. sometimes the plinking is enough to clear the reed slot of any small stray slivers of brass. Takes the guesswork out I generally do 3-4 good strokes with the socket up to the 7th reed then 2 does it. The 7-10 do not need to be as touchy.
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HarpNinja
40 posts
Dec 15, 2009
7:02 AM
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I worked on a harp for quite awhile last night. I really worked most on embossing the reeds. It was an old harp that played well to begin with (might need tuning, though). I agree with Bluzdude that the method from the Buddha vid works well.
I did manage to make the reeds fairly flat for the half farthest from the rivet.
The issue I am on to now is tip scooping. I've seen it done a few ways, but I am not sure which is "best" and what tool I should be using to do it. Thoughts?
I think the exacto knife is beyond my skill at this point. However, the A harp now easily ob's and od's without choking.
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Mike Fugazzi
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sorin
119 posts
Dec 15, 2009
8:54 AM
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"However, the A harp now easily ob's and od's without choking."
Than you don't need any tip scooping ,if you have good breath control and you can attack the normal notes and they do not choke , and easily overblow the same reeds , I think the tip scooping is not needed. My theory is that when you emboss the top of the slot you already get some of the tip scooping effect.
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tookatooka
876 posts
Dec 15, 2009
1:01 PM
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I've thought of an idea which may work. If you get a ball bearing about 8mm diameter. Place onto the slot and roll it up and down the slot (not too close to the rivet end) whilst applying downward pressure with say a steel rule. That way you would be rolling and deforming the slot inwards and you would not abrade the slot edge. If I can get a ball bearing of the correct diameter, I'll give that a try. Could be a good method. I think that's genius.
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Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2009 1:02 PM
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GermanHarpist
809 posts
Dec 15, 2009
1:07 PM
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"I think that's genius." ...yeah, sounds good!
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germanharpist on YT. =;-)
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toddlgreene
249 posts
Dec 15, 2009
1:18 PM
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Is a 'resting period' for the reeds necessary after embossing? If so, then what's a safe bet?
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~Todd L. Greene, Devout Pedestrian
"listen to what you like for inspiration, but find your own voice"
crescentcityharmonicaclub@gmail.com
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DaDoom
145 posts
Dec 15, 2009
1:34 PM
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Haha, I got it all wrong I see. I thought that the process of embossing meant that you push the reed inside the slot as far as possible. I didn't know that it's about the reed slot actually haha!
Well in any case I did what Buddha shows in one of his clips and guess what: I managed to produce one fine GM (apparently by sheer luck). Thanks germanharpist for starting this thread ;)
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