wizardputt
6 posts
Dec 19, 2009
2:13 PM
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Hi folks,
I have been playing harp for a long time now, but as of recently playing amplified. I have a shure green bullet mic and I play through a peavey classic 50 tube amp.. Long story short, I am having trouble getting the real raunchy, dirty, chicago blues sound out of it. Is it what the controls are set at or is it my setup? I really don't have a clue.. thanks
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hvyj
25 posts
Dec 19, 2009
3:23 PM
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It may actually have less to do with your equipment than it does with your playing technique. BUT, using an air tight cup on the mic will help. You need to overdrive the mic element this way. Pumping the midrange tone control on the amp and rolling off the treble will also help.
If you are focusing on gear, get an MXR 10 band EQ pedal, pump the 250k freq slider, back off on 1k and 2K and turn the lowest and highest sliders all the way down. Leave the others more or less flat or adjust them to taste in small increments.. Then use the volume and gain sliders to get the level of mic response and drive you want without feedback which means you will essentially be using the EQ pedal as a preamp to push the tube amp into overdrive or distortion. More gain and less volume on those EQ sliders increases the sensitivity and response of the mic and also creates a dirtier sound. Less gain and more volume is cleaner. Fool around with the relative settings of the gain and volume sliders for the tone you want and to control feedback.
This is a hardware oriented answer, and is by no means the only or best way to do it. You can accomplish some of this stuff better through playing technique, but if you want to do it with gear, this will help. IMHO, a Shure 545 Ultimate may be a better choice of mics for what you are trying to do if you know how to use a tight cup and understand proximity effect.
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2009 3:28 PM
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wizardputt
7 posts
Dec 19, 2009
4:02 PM
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thanks for the feedback.. I do have a hard time cupping the mic.. I am geting close to the sound I want, but I'm sure that do need to tweak my technique a bit. thanks..
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Rick Davis
24 posts
Dec 19, 2009
4:23 PM
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I doubt that your "playing technique" is the problem. The stock Peavey Classic 50 is a high-gain beast. With a Green Bullet mic it would be all but impossible to get to a tonal sweet spot on the amp before the onset of howling feedback.
You can try to calm the amp down by lowering the gain in the preamp stage. That would involve using different tubes with a lower gain factor. If your amp is stock, the preamp tubes are 12AX7. Your first careful step might be to try a 5751 or 12AY7 tube in V1, the tube socket closest to where you plug in the microphone.
Your power tubes are EL84, which I have never liked very much for harp tone. (See Fender Blues Jr and Pro Jr.) I've found that the standard Electro Harmonix EL84 tube is a bit warmer than others, however.
Try playing with your Highs rolled completely off and your Lows dimed. Try the Mids halfway up to start. Don't use the bright channel, or any pedals, or the reverb on the amp. Presence control all the way down. Use the Master Volume to control the loudness of the amp. Leave the Boost switch off; it is evil for harp. The Blue Marvel speakers are junk and will need to be replaced.
Having said all that, it would probably be a long and tedious (and expensive) project to turn the Peavey Classic 50 into a passably good harp amp. My suggestion would be that you consider a smaller harp-specific amp. Anything from HarpGear would be excellent. The soon-to-be released Chicago and Memphis harp amps will be worth a look too.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2009 4:48 PM
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hvyj
27 posts
Dec 19, 2009
6:22 PM
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Rick has some excellent suggestions, BUT I must respectfully disagree on 2 points: 1) you CAN almost get a Chicago sound even through a PA using a very tight cup and throat constriction that distorts the reeds if you've got strong enough technique, the right mic, and know what you are doing. But that's not how most players do it. Of course, using technique alone is not necessarily the best or most effective way to do it, but it certainly is part of the equation. 2) Contrary to popular belief, diming the Lows is not always a good idea. On certain amps, it may work, or even be necessary, but it can sometimes create a VERY muddy tone which will be inconsistent with Chicago sound you want. Also, keep in mind that cranking the bass can cause feedback. too. The tone freqs you need to boost are the low mids at approx, 240-250k.
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2009 6:38 PM
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kudzurunner
883 posts
Dec 19, 2009
7:14 PM
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I agree with Rick, except I'd be honest: a 50 watt, 2 x 12" amp designed for guitarists is exactly what I would AVOID in a harp amp.
Why?
1) too much power
2) 12" speakers are larger than ideal
3) if it's designed for guitarists--and the promo suggests that it is--then it has fairly heavy magnets. Another debit if you're talking about a harp amp
I played through a 1 x 12" Peavy amp early on. It sucked. It had a solid state preamp and tube power amp. It LOOKED like a decent amp. It sucked for harp.
There are no hard and fast rules for amping harp, of course. I'll never forget the time I heard a guy playing with Jimmy Rogers at Manny's Car Wash in NYC and he had the greatest, nastiest sound I'd ever heard. He was playing a Radio Shack mic through a solid state PA which was cranked up--acting as a preamp of some sort--and then blasting through the PA. Amazing! I wish I'd gotten it on tape.
But still: 50 watts is a beast. Unless it's specifically designed as a harp amp, it's the wrong amp.
Sell it.
Sell it quickly, with extreme prejudice.
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2009 7:15 PM
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Greg Heumann
194 posts
Dec 19, 2009
9:13 PM
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My business is serving the needs of amplified harp players. Everyone is right.
1) The peavey isn't a great amp especially for a beginner - hard to control
2) The 520DX bullet is very large in diameter and hard to cup - and ultimately has a little too much headroom and high frequency response to make a great chicago-blues-style mic.
3) Good amplified tone, even with great equipment, takes practice.
There is no short cut around having good acoustic tone in the first place, but equipment DOES make a difference, AND there are also specific mic techniques that are important as well. Cupping the harp FULLY (which you wouldn't do all the time) means trying to contain all the sound waves and pressure in the cavity between your hand and the front of the mic. Because these waves can escape out the unplayed/open holes on the FRONT of the harp, good cupping technique means not only sealing the space between back of the harp and the front of the mic, but also the front of the mic and your hands, thumbs, cheeks and mouth.
I did a cupla youtube videos demonstrating this a while ago. First, here it is acoustic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck9SBiZw2ds
and then amplified:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcEQZApX5NU
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/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bluestate
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2009 9:15 PM
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Hobostubs Ashlock
193 posts
Dec 19, 2009
9:14 PM
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Not trying to kiss up but Kudzurunner's video on harp amps.Is one of the best videos for the subject it have you running dual 10's i kid you not.and i think it was only 5$ for the download its worth that just to check out his gear
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Randy G. Blues
117 posts
Dec 19, 2009
9:27 PM
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IMO, unless you have an electronics person on hand, and want to spend time and money trying to make something work for harp that was meant to work for guitar, just ut to the chase, hit the bottom line, and get an amp made for harp. The opinions above are dead on. You will spend lots of time trying to get tone that the amp is not made for, and fighting feedback constantly. the solution will then be to use lower-gain input tubes. BTDT.
I had a Genz Benz BP-30 112 (30 watts, class A, 12" speaker) which is an AWESOME amplifier.. for guitar. Finally sold it. Got an amp made for harp. Instantly got more tone, and more range than I thought I had. The difference is night and day.
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Greg Heumann
195 posts
Dec 19, 2009
9:36 PM
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Randy I agree 100%. I chased after amps for a while but then I got smart. I bought a Sonny Jr amp knowing full well it was a great amp for harp, and that therefore I could no longer use my amp as an excuse for a lack of tone. I never looked back. I still have that amp, still love it, still gig with it many years later. It got me my first gigs. I added a second Sonny Jr amp to the collection and love them both. I wish I had the money I spent on lousy amps back.
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/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net"
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bluestate
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Rick Davis
25 posts
Dec 19, 2009
9:56 PM
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Greg, I agree with you 100 percent that it takes a lot of practice to get good amplified tone. The problem here is that wizardputt is not likely to ever get that practice using an amp like the Peavey Classic 50. He will spend all his time fighting the amp instead of working on his tone.
Other guitar amps are much better candidates for conversion to harp friendliness, and harp-specific amps of course are wonderful.
That is why I recommend to all my beginning blues harp students that they buy a small 5-watt amp, such as the HarpGear HG2. Getting the opportunty to develop one's tone on a good harp amp is priceless. And it makes no sense for a novice to buy a big expensive boutique amp. Those choices should wait until the player knows his way around a tube amp, and knows what amped "tone" means.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Kingley
551 posts
Dec 20, 2009
2:22 AM
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I agree with Adam. Get shot of the Peavey. It's not really an ideal amp for harp.
A better choice would be either a custom harp amp or a good Fender (either original or reissue).
The best Fenders for the job out of the current production line up are the Princeton Reverb Reissue, Pro Jr or the Bassman LTD. The Bassman however would have to played loud to get a good tone. Whilst the Princeton (my personal favourite) and the Pro Jr can achieve good tone at a lower volume level. All these amps however benefit from having the V1 preamp changed from a 12AX7 to a 12AY7.
In general it's also fair to say that NOS bullet mics are better than the 520DX. Other good choices for harp mics are the Shure 545, 545S, 545SD, Ev RE10 or Greg Heumann's Ultimate series mics / wood mics.
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hvyj
28 posts
Dec 20, 2009
6:02 AM
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Don't forget the Fender Super Reverb Reissue. Although it's a little cleaner than the others. Paul Butterfield played through a SR most of the time, and so did James Cotton for a while.
The dry channel on the SR is more "Chicago" sounding than the reverb channel. They are wired differently. Personally, i have a strong preference for 10" speakers for harp. The SR and all of the amps Kingley mentions have 10s. BUT, smaller speakers like 8s may sound
"nastier" if that's what you are after (example: silver face Fender Champ).
A Shure 545 works really well with any of these fender amps. Stock 545s can be a little unergomic for harp, but Greg Heumann's 545 Ultimate solves that problem. Certain mics work better with certain amps, so what sounds good with one amp may not sound as good with another. Personally, I'm not a big fan of bullet style mics, but YMMV. Anyway mic handling technique and grip is very important for amplified playing in order to get the tone you are after.
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2009 6:03 AM
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Kingley
553 posts
Dec 20, 2009
6:23 AM
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Hvyi makes a good point. Thanks.
I completely forget about the Super Reverb Reissue and the '57 Champ Reissue.
Rick Estrin used a Super Reverb for 25 years.
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rbeetsme
84 posts
Dec 20, 2009
6:55 AM
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What Adam and Greg said. Been there, bought a bunch of amps (and mics) and ended up with a Sonny Jr. and several small vintage amps. No more excuses, if I sound bad, it's me!
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Greg Heumann
196 posts
Dec 20, 2009
7:37 AM
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Rick said:
"That is why I recommend to all my beginning blues harp students that they buy a small 5-watt amp, such as the HarpGear HG2. "
To which I add... "Or a rebuilt vintage Kalamazoo" - one of the best little harp amps there is, and relatively cheap! And I rebuild them.
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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joshnat
20 posts
Dec 20, 2009
7:41 AM
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I finally ditched my amp and now play through a Lone Wolf Harp Attack direct to PA via an active DI box. Good crunch, and great tone, and I can finally hear myself (though the monitor). The HA is not a tube preamp, it's actually a tube power amp, which makes it ideal as an amp alternative. Also, feedback is no longer a problem, except from the monitor. Still trying to figure that one out.
It works well with my 1956 CR white label element, although I hope to try it with a 545 some day.
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Ray
81 posts
Dec 20, 2009
7:43 AM
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Small vintage amps. I have a Masco MAP120 and a Masco MA-808 and two Supro Spectators and with a Controlled Magnetic mic or Astatic 151 all of them have that Chicago Growl. Vintage equiptment = vintage sound.
But that's just my opinion and ya know what they say about opinions. :)
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Cisco
54 posts
Dec 20, 2009
7:49 AM
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+1 for the Fender 57 Champ RI. Gets loud and nasty with great Chicago blues tone. I also use the Lone Wolf Tone + with the 57 Champ and 57 Deluxe to add more bottom end and control feedback better. My 59 Bassman RI and HarpGear HP50 1210 don't need the Tone +, just the Lone Wolf Harp Delay for a fatter sound.
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hvyj
29 posts
Dec 20, 2009
8:57 AM
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It is unquestionably possible to get very decent tone going into a PA if the player knows what he is doing and has a decent mic. Clearly, there are certain significant advantages to using an amp, but, after all, the PA IS the biggest amp in the room.
I'm always amused by guys who can't blow harp on a couple of tunes without setting up more gear than I have furniture in my living room. While it may be easier, more comfortable and more fun to play through your specific rig, a player who knows what he is doing should be able to achieve very acceptable (though maybe not ideal) electric tone through a PA. But there's a lot more to it than just having good acoustic tone.
Although the right equipment definitely helps, gear has less to do with it than is commonly believed. Superior technique alone will always create better electric tone than will superior gear alone. Every time. Now, if you've got both, tell me where you are playing because I want to come and listen.
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2009 9:07 AM
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Greg Heumann
198 posts
Dec 20, 2009
9:03 AM
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Playing well through a PA is a skill for sure. It has the potential to make people's ears bleed, especially if the level is set up for a singer who sings 12" from the mic. You have to be very careful. On the other hand some guys are very good at it. Kenny Neal plays better through an SM58 than any other harp player I've ever heard.
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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hvyj
30 posts
Dec 20, 2009
9:17 AM
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Greg is right. Unless you can have some control over the settings, or know what to tell the sound tech that does, ear bleeds and peeling paint off the walls might be what you get playing through a PA.
Btw, if monitor feedback becomes a problem,and you have no choice but to stand near the monitor, it helps to hold the mic grill pointing straight up in the air when you're not playing. Don't know if this works with bullet mics, though.
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2009 9:18 AM
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Rick Davis
26 posts
Dec 20, 2009
10:56 AM
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Greg, I know many harp players love the old Kalamazoo amps but I am not among them.
I prefer the warmer tone from a Champ 5F1 circuit with 6V6 power tube. The single EL84 power tube in the K-Zoo amps can tend toward harshness.
For anyone intending to gig a small amp the HarpGear HG2 might be a better choice, since it is made of solid pine with a baltic birch baffle, rather than the flimsy particle board of the old K-Zoo amps. The HarpGear also has a line out. It is louder, a bit less compressed, and looks good in its tweed.
The K-Zoos do have a certain ratty sound that is really fun... lots of gritty break-up in the tone. For players like wizardputt who are trying to get a grip on amped tone, I think the HG2 amp will serve them better. It is less of a one-trick pony and it is likely to be more durable.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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bluzlvr
288 posts
Dec 20, 2009
2:46 PM
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I used to lug around a Peavey Classic 50 4x10 for guitar.
A much as I tried, I never could get a good harp sound out of it.
I didn't spend too much time trying though, because I was also lugging around a Bassman 4x10. And a PA.(Whew!)
As far as playing through the PA, once in a while I'm pleasently surprised when I'm forced to play through a PA at a jam session and it sounds pretty good.
I think the reason is that the mic I'm using is not turned up too loud and maybe a little heavy on the bass.
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mrdon46
21 posts
Dec 20, 2009
11:53 PM
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Second (or 3d or 4th, 5th, whatever--I lost count) selling the Peavey and getting a small 5 watter with a good 8 or 10 inch speaker--'Zoo, HG, Champ, Valve Jr, they're all good. Invest $5 and add a line out (or mic it) and you can play through the PA if you need, or not if you don't. Later on you can (and surely will) add other, larger, amps, but that'll just be for fun--in truth a small amp is all you really need, and you'll find you keep going back to it because it sounds so darn good.
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wizardputt
8 posts
Dec 21, 2009
10:02 AM
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thanks for the feedback, the amp is fellow guitar players amp, so selling it really isn't an option.. but I am definatley in the market for something smaller
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htownfess
3 posts
Dec 21, 2009
12:01 PM
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Observations from someone who actually owned a tweed PV C50 4x10 for eight years, some with an early 520DX: It's not really a 50w amp, it's more of an AC30 in faux tweed clothing, and though the Alligator amp from Europe indicates that quad-EL84 can work for harp, the tweed C50 circuit has real voicing problems: the final coupling caps are too small, and there's a real pinch of a coupler off the first stage, IIRC, and that's why there's so little bass/low-mids: just doesn't let them through. Change those three caps and the undersize input grid load resistor and a tweed C50 would probably surprise people for harp, but you're borrowing so never mind.
If a 4x10 then at least it has that going for it: Use the MXR EQ pedal as described, or a Lone Wolf Harp Tone+ pedal. In 1991 I used a 16-band mono EQ and CM GB and only about 3dB of boost @ 250 Hz was audible, just went muddy above that; I used 1-2 dB extra @ 125 Hz also and rolled things off starting @ 1K, maybe 3 dB of overall level boost, but follow hvyj's advice with the MXR, bass'll be clearer his way. I suspect a Tone+ would get more meat into the tone but haven't actually had a C50 handy to try it on, and the MXR pedals are fairly common to borrow--even a bass EQ pedal can help if it's got a 200 or 250 Hz band.
EL84s drive easily so the amp doesn't need to be turned up all that much; gain isn't really the problem in the tweed C50, it's the fact that there's no meat under the curve to take advantage of the range where a harp mic doesn't feed back. IIRC, trying a 12AY7 swap didn't really help on feedback, just blanded it out. My CM GB was a lot better with the PV than my 520DX was, I'm afraid, but I think the difference was the usual CM-vs.-DX gap.
About technique--It probably still makes him twitch in his sleep, but David Barrett recorded that 1995 classic Building Harmonica Technique on a 4x10 Classic 50. I'm sure he was using that amp for cost reasons--so was I--but DB shows it can be done. I never recorded my C50 but it was OK in a midrangy way, just never had anything like Bassman/Super levels of low end. You can use it for a viable big-amp rig if you get the pedal working, so try to borrow a pedal too & save money toward the small amp.
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LittleJoeSamson
166 posts
Dec 21, 2009
3:59 PM
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I concur with previous comments: save and look for a tamer, smaller watt tube combo or piggyback. Either a dedicated harp unit, a vintage if you can find one, or by voicing some of the smaller new ones.
Until then ( since this is your friends amp ), one could try some fairly simple tube swaps as Rick Davis suggested.
It would prbably be advisable to keep the EL84 power tubes stock...even with their edge, to avoid having to re-bias. Matched quads aren't cheap, either.
One could try swapping out the three 12AX7's for three 12AY7's; or two 12AY7's in the V1 & V2 slot and a good triple-mica 12AT7 in the V3/phase inverter slot ( closest to the power tubes ).
This is my personal favorite.
The owner/guitar player might also like this configuration if he's not a shredder.
Or, you could try a medium club setting of V1-12AU7, V2-12AX7 or 12AT7, V3-12AU7.
Another question is how are you using the amp? Jamming or playing gigs?
Often, just the way an amp is situated will affect tone.
Lots of other variables, but good luck finding your own rig.
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hvyj
33 posts
Dec 21, 2009
7:28 PM
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I'm not familiar with this particular amp, but replacing the Ax7 phase inverter tube with an Ad/w7 will fatten tone for harp on some amps.
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Bluzdude46
335 posts
Dec 22, 2009
6:45 AM
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Adding my 2 pennies. Nothing wrong with GOOD quality EL84's if you have a correctly set up pre amp stage I've put up the tone of My Modded Epi Vjr against bigger amps and a Kalamazoo at a taste test done at The Harp Club outta Frederick MD and there were some amazed Harp players there. I agree that "good" for Guitar usually means bad for Harp, But the idea that you cannot get good quality sound without spending Boutique money is not correct. All the info is out there on the web. I have gigged with mic'd Epi, Dual Epi and the sound was great using a Good Quality American CM White Label bullet. My only issue is 5w amp just ain't big enough
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Randy G. Blues
119 posts
Dec 22, 2009
10:23 AM
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I got an eBay deal on a good used Electar "Tube10" (made in Korea) a while back. The group I was in was doing some recordings and I did not like the amp I was lent there, and my big amp was WAY too much for the small studio.
I will eventually build a solid pine cabinet for it so that it can hold a 10" speaker (it had an 8). For the money it is a lot of fun and has good sound. A great starting amp for a new player or for small coffee shop gigs.
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Bluzdude46
338 posts
Dec 22, 2009
11:09 AM
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Back on the EL84, I prefer them as Single tube Power tubes. If Double then yes I like 6v6 matching. If you are finding EL84 too Harsh it may not be the tube type but it may need to be better filtered. Boosting the Filter caps in a unit will do nothing but good things.
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htownfess
4 posts
Dec 22, 2009
4:14 PM
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That's why the skinny coupling caps on the tweed Classic 50 are such a shame: the first filter stage is two 47 mfd in parallel, nice and stout, call it 100 mfd rounded off. Designers of EL84 amps are usually too influenced by the AC30/AC15 and go for the mid-on-up voicing that chimes for guitar but can just be harsh for harp. virtually all the recent Fender/Crate/Peavey/Gibson EL84 designs suffer from that. Open up the circuit for low-to-low mids and one can get a fat enough tone out of EL84s. I wouldn't boost the preamp filter caps in most amps much, if any, for harp, though: I leave the washed-out tone to the Marshall shredders.
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