Thanks GH gives me some motivation for my morning practice. Is that a low-E your using? ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2009 4:53 AM
Good post G.H. I like that you work the bends at an equal or lower volume. That is a good reminder that proper bending is not force, or more air, it is good technique. Nice. Merry Christmas!
thanks , you said that like everyone knows there is 2 bends in the 4d .. i never heard it but i do now. you made my morning practice.merry christmas .. hope Belsnickel brings all the harps you want.. peace oh are you working on a car ---------- Fred HARP (Harmonica Assn 'Round Philly)
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2009 6:22 AM
He's talking about bending to pitch. The "floor" of each draw bend is at a pitch that is usually flatter than the lowest note available in that draw hole. How much flatter varies from brand to brand of harmonica. SO, if a player wants to hit the flat 5th note accurately on pitch in second position, the player would not bend the 4 draw all the way down to the "floor" of the bend.
There's nothing wrong with bending past the half step bend on draw 4 for effect and German Harpist is showing us how to do that. But the moral of the story is that if you bend all the way down to the "floor" of a draw bend you will be playing a note that roughly 20 % flatter than the lowest note you can accurately bend to pitch on that hole. Such imprecision can be part of the aesthetic of playing blues. But the player should be aware that this is what he or she is doing,
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2009 11:18 AM
What hvji is saying is true about bending past the floor of the bend, and whenever you do that and use too much breath force in combination with that, not only is the intonation and articulation of the bend gonna be awful, you also willing be putting WAAAAAAAAAAAY too much stress on the reed and it will get blown out very quickly.
Too many players seem to think that bending a note is more or less a built in special effects device for the instrument, but that is NOT true at all, as you're trying to get a note the reed wasn't originally designed to produce.
Many players need to take the time to study a chart that has all of the available notes of the harmonica completely charted out, including where the bends (and even the overblows/overdraws) so they know where they are on the harmonica at all times. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
BBQ Bob is absolutely correct, but for stylistic reasons, it is sometimes desirable to bend down lower than the lowest accurate pitch. Example: Putting a quarter tone bend on draw 5 in second position to imitate certain Little Walter licks. This will produce a "harmonic 7th" or "blues 7th" which is just a little flatter than a true flat 7th (like a "blue third" is just a little sharper than a true minor third). Or opening the throat and taking draw 2 down a little lower than a full step for some growl at just the right moment.
BUT a player is much better off learning to bend to the correct pitch(s) reliably well before starting to fool around with these microtonal variations. And, yes, slamming down to the floor of the bend can be very very hard on the reeds. BUT, just the right amount of excess at just the right moment CAN be a very effective and expressive artistic statement if the player doesn't over do it!
Btw, I am using the term "floor of the bend" to mean bending as low as the reed will possibly go past the lowest available accurate pitch. Bob is calling the lowest available accurate pitch the "floor of the bend" which is what I have been referring to as "bending to pitch." But this is just semantics, so don't be confused.
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2009 11:16 AM
The free download on David Barretts site has a perfect exercise and song with free jam tracks etc. focusing on all of the bends, half step, whole step etc. Very good practice and the price is right....Merry Christmas
hvyi, "How much flatter varies from brand to brand of harmonica." - so which harmonicas bend further down? What makes the difference that allows you to bend down further? Is there some tinkering that could do the trick?
Fred, took a while until I understood what you meant. I wasn't working on a car but cutting beetroot for big family dinner....
The best would be that the bends go all the way down to the blow note and the overblow starts right at the draw note... then you would have the whole frequency range of three octaves...! ---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-)
I have a complete set of Suzuki Hammonds that i use for performance and I carry smaller set of Suzuki Firebreaths as spares. I don't play around with a lot of different brands of harmonicas, but before I switched to Suzukis I played Hohners for a very long time. SO...in my experience, the "floor" of the draw bends on Hohners, in general, are flatter than the lowest accurate pitch in the same hole than the "floor" of the draw bends are on Suzukis. In other words, Hohners will generally bend farther down past the lowest accurate draw pitch than Suzukis will.
This means there is less "slop" on the Suzukis. so, in general, less finesse is required to bend accurately to pitch on Suzukis. However, in my experience, it's a little tougher to hit the draw 3 half step bend with consistent accuracy on Suzukis than it is on Hohners. But, all of the other draw bends seem to be easier to hit accurately on Suzukis than on Hohners.
As i understand it, the amount one can bend a particular draw (or blow) note depends upon the ratio between the blow pitch and the draw pitch in the same hole. But I think reed and comb design may affect how far down one can take a microtonal bend past the lowest available accurate pitch in that hole. I believe reeds on most Suzuki models are physically shorter than reeds on Hohners, so I'm speculating that this may have something to do with it, but I don't know for sure. I do know that (except for the 3 draw half step bend) I can play draw bends with more consistent accuracy on my OOB Suzukis than i can on any OOB Hohners I've ever played.
Last Edited by on Dec 25, 2009 3:10 PM
I don't understand why bending to the floor is stressful to the reed.
From what I understand, you're not forcing the draw reed to vibrate at a lower pitch than it was made for, rather you are causing the blow reed to vibrate louder, and the combination of the pitches from the two reeds combine to produce a sound in between the (non-varying) pitches of each reed.
What you clearly don`t understand is that both breath force amount being used as well as how you manipulate the inside shaping of your mouth are HUGE factors in the process and going all the way to the floor of the bend constantly with an extremely hard breath force (which is something the vast majority of newbies are guilty of BIG TIME) causes microscopic cracks in the reed (better known as stress fractures), which upon doing this constantly, gets larger and once this starts to happen, the reed becomes toast. the pitch drops badly out of tune, and in a worse case scenerio, the reed can actually break apart. On all harmonicas from the key of D and higher, the 4 blow will actually be the very first to get blown out because of the unnecessary stress being placed on it. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
OK, I can certainly understand excessive breath force weakening a read, but excessive breath is not necessary to bend a note. Will bending the draw 4 to the floor using correct bending technique still weaken the reed?
Even with better technique, bending does place more stress on the reed, but better overall playing technique will dramatically reduce this. When you go to the very floor of the bend (for the sake of clarification, the highest note in the hole will bend down to within 1/2 step of the lowest note of the hole in 1/2 step increments, and the floor is 1/4 step below that, or on against a tuner, another 50 cents flat) and if you want to play a throat vibrato on the very last bend, much like a singer`s vibrato, that needs to have that 1/4 step pitch variance in order for it to happen and if you try to do it without that 1/4 step, that vibrato on the bend will NOT happen at all. There are a lot of players who complain about 7 limit just intonation having 5 & 9 draw tuned 29 cents flat, but hitting the bend all the way to the floor of the bend AKA another 1/4 step past the floor, which is another 50 cents flat is MUCH more out of tune than 5 & 9 draw tuned 29 cents flat on a harp tuned to 7LJI, and I personally find a player who makes those complaints yet goes to the very floor of the last bend a bit hypocritical. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Ahh... That thing about difficulty with vibrato at the bottom is enlightening! Common sense should have shined a light there, but I just never thought of it.
Uh-oh...I think I just revealed a horrible truth about myself. :(
But I still can't see how correct bending technique, even to the bottom, would overstress the reeds.
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2009 7:10 PM
Think about pushing things past the point of safety. Any harp can be made to last almost forever if you could eliminate using too much breath force, never using bends or overblows, but better technique CAN lessen the level of stress considerably. BTW, the way I described how to get a vibrato on a bent note has similarities to how a vibrato works with a vocalist. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2009 7:36 PM
Bob is right. Pushing a reed repeatedly to its extreme limit will weaken it, just like repeatedly pushing just about anything else to its extreme limit will weaken it. This is not unique to harmonicas, it's just common sense. Many players regularly apply extreme breath force and take the 4 draw bend as low as the reeds will possibly go instead of bending to pitch because they don't know any better. That's poor playing technique. It's also poor musicianship and is very very hard on the reeds.
Now, if a player wants to bend lower than than the lowest available accurate bent pitch every now and then for stylistic reasons, it's not necessary to apply extreme breath force to do it. But most players don't know how to bend to pitch in the first place and so are almost always placing unnecessary stress on the reeds by bending the 4 draw to the extreme floor of the bend. It's also unmusical and is the sort of thing that tends to give harmonica players a bad reputation among other musicians.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2009 7:04 PM
After some woodshedding I'd say that the "floor" bend is pretty much a bend to itself and not only an effect-bend. With my Sp20 it goes so far down, that it is very! close (bout 30 cents) from the blow note.
When I think about it I seem to remember, that Adam uses the 4 bend sometimes instead of the 4 blow.
This would give you an extra note on every hole (having a replacement for the blow, respectively draw note). Which would extend BBQ's list quite a bit.
Plus it gives you a lot more room for cool sliedes...
F-in AWESOME!!! Although it makes intonation more difficult, it opens up sooo many new possibilites...
I tried getting the overblows started as low as possible too (again about 30 cents from the draw note). With the good harp and good technique this should give you (over most of the harp) a close to seemingless frequency range...!
After some weeks of a woodshedding rut... damn thats exciting!
P.s. let's see how long my harps will live now.... :)
---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-)
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2009 3:10 PM
Some draw holes will bend A LOT farther in certain keys than they will in other keys. But, yes INTONATION becomes the problem. These bends won't necessarily give you a note that's on pitch.
Unless you are just sitting around playing by yourself, the objective is not just to make cool sounds. If you are playing with other musicians, you need to be playing notes in order to make music. This usually (but not always) means bending to pitch. "Cool slides" can be very cool--but only if played at the right time and in the right context relative to the rest of the music. A certain imprecision can be part of the aesthetic of the blues, but it's got to fit in order to sound right musically. Not any and every imprecision will work well in a musical context and this is so whether you are playing blues or some other style.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2009 5:00 PM
BTW, some very respected players claim that there is more than 1 blow bend available in holes 8 and 9 and more than 2 in blow 10. I don't know. I don't do all that much blow bending myself. And i don't OB. But I think BBQ Bob is absolutely correct about the available draw bends on draw holes that can be bent to pitch.
@BBQBob: Your long chart in your initial post above (10:28 AM) is correct in one sense, but also mistaken on an extremely important point.
Of all posters here--i.e., as a guy who personally fraternized with Big Walter Horton--you surely know that there are six or seven different useable bends on the 3 draw. On "Have a Good Time," for example, Walter plays his "blue" third a little flatter when he's playing it over the IV chord than when he's playing it over the I chord. That's common among good Chicago-style players, but it's a particularly noticeable subtlety in Walter's playing. The higher blue third is somewhat closer to the major third than the lower blue third, but the lower of the two blue thirds is no lower than the minor third.
There's also a "flatter" blue third that is just BELOW a minor third, one that good blues players use when they're rolling down onto a major second (full step bend on 3 draw). It's the note that Duane Allman and Dickie Betts use a lot; it's a dobro note that shows up in "Pony Boy," for example.
There's the major second: whole step bend on 3 draw.)
Finally, in "Creeper Creeps Again," Cotton does a repeated pattern that includes a 3 draw bent SLIGHTLY below the major second.
And of course there's the flat 9, or minor second: step-and-a-half bend.
That's at least six different useable bent notes on the 3 draw, not including the un-bent 3 draw. I'm talking about notes used by the best players in the world on well-known recordings. I'm not making this stuff up. These six bends go to the heart of cross-harp blues playing and should be mastered by all players. The fact that they subdivide the 150 cents of melodic territory differently than standard western notation (which is what you use in your chart) helps us understand why the blues are not "simple," as some people like to call them, but extremely complex.
On the 4 draw, there's certainly a difference between the flat fifth--a bend that is exactly half the distance between the 4 draw and 4 blow--and the "hard" or "floor" bend. That latter bend is an entirely legitimate note; it's one that blues guitarists, especially from the jazz side of the fence, use quite often. It derives from blues singers such as Bessie Smith.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2009 6:33 PM
A corollary concept to keep in mind regarding how far flat to bend a "blue third" and when is that the flat third of the I chord is the SAME note as the flat seventh of the IV chord. In blues as I understand it, (and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong about this) the flat seventh is usually played at least as flat as a true minor seventh. So, on the IV chord, this note is usually played at least full half step flat or close to it.
Adam, those are 1/4 steps AKA microtones, and it`s something the average player can`t get properly in correct pitch largely because of mainly bad playing technique and a huge s**tload of EXTREMELY intensive woodshedding is absolutely necessary just to barely get the hang of it, let alone MASTER it. It`s a technique that borrows very heavily from sax players. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 12:01 PM
Exactly! You're right: those are quarter-tones, or something other than semitones (i.e., they probably don't lie exactly halfway between semitones), and I learned them as much from sax players as from harp players. They're hard to hear, and even harder to master. I just thought the old guys like you and I needed to keep the kids running scared. :)
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 4:00 AM
Indian music, using instruments like a sitar, use micotones by the truckload and most western instruments like a piano are largely unable to produce them. The average player almost never pays attention for those microtones because, as a general rule, the average player tends to listen to music like the way the average music fan does, wheras a pro musician, recording engineer, or record producer listens with "bigger ears," meaning they tend to pay very close attention to the little things (which very often has a HUGE impact on how the big/obvious things play out) that 98% of music fans as well as the average player either completely misses or ignores. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 5:58 AM
Or, they refer to them as something like "cool slides," for example. Some people do hear this stuff but don't actually know what it is or what to call it.
Btw, there is a website about saxophone playing that is called "Sax on the Web" which has articles about how to play in different styles. I don't play sax, but sometimes I look at it for ideas. Anyway, the article about playing blues refers to the blues scale as "The Thousand Note Scale" which is also the title of the article. The "thousand notes" refers to the variety of microtonal bends one can use playing blue notes. Maybe a "thousand" is somewhat of an overstatement or exaggeration, but it does describe the concept Adam was telling us about.
Whether, when, and how far to bend a blue note and if, when, and how far to release the bend is a big part of the emotion of blues. Often (but not always) hitting the note bent is more effective than bending it down, since the bend is often (but not always) played against a corresponding major (unbent) chord tone. Playing the note bent creates tension and then releasing the bend UP so it resolves into the major chord tone tone resolves the tension, and, if done correctly, makes an emotional statement. This technique is an important component of the aesthetic of playing blues, BUT, it is not the only way bends are used in blues playing. However it is an effective technique that is fundamental to playing blues.
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 6:58 AM
Hvyj, you had mentioned seeing shorter slot reeds on a Suzuki. Well, that is a VERY common component in all Asian made harmonicas, and German and Brazillian made harmonicas tend to use long slot reeds. However, Suzuki does have two models that now use long slot reeds, and that's the Fabulous and the Manji, and no other Asian made harmonicas have long slot reeds. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 12:03 PM
Bob, The Fabulous bends as precisely as any harmonica I've ever played, (including the 3 hole draw half step bend). Haven't tried a Manji. The bends on the Fabulous are as precise as on a custom harp.
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 12:54 PM
There are so many styles of music that use bends and slides. It's a very beautiful form of musical expression and a lot gets lost if you just single out a few frequencies and define them as your sortiment of notes. When we sing our voice slides and bends all over the place...
Thus the perfect instrument IMO is one that has control over the full frequency range (or as close to it as possible). The good thing about harmonica is that by choosing the right notes/positions we have a lot of room for controled bends. I.e take the 3 hole bend a whole step, there is room for slides a whole note up and down (i.e. the next note in your scale). Or with a good technique you can have a seemless transition from an overblow to a blow note (or maybe even a floor-bend...) ...you see where I'm getting at.
And that's what I call the possibility of "cool slides". No mention of uncontroled 4 hole wails (see thread title) or blues when we're at it.
---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-)
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 2:55 PM
I respectfully take issue with your comparison hvyj...it's undoubtedly true according to your experience, but there's a wide range of playability/quality among "custom" harp builders, as well as among individual Fabulus harmonicas.
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 3:28 PM
I'm not saying that the Fabulous is a good as a good custom harp. That would not be consistent with my experience. But the Fabulous I have in the key of C (ET) bends very precisely. Spot on accurate and relatively easy to hit on pitch. I don't like the Fabulous well enough to acquire a set of them, but the precision of the bends on the one I've got is EXTREMELY good. It may not compare as well to a good custom harp in some other respects, but the accuracy of the bends is very impressive,
Btw, i don't OB so i have no opinion on that.
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 4:19 PM
