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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Positions on Chromatic
Positions on Chromatic
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WinslowYerxa
326 posts
Jun 07, 2013
10:09 PM
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Fred, that chart is for diatonics. On a Bb diatonic your only way to produce most of the notes in B is to use bends and overblows, so it's valid to call it 8th position.
But on an A chromatic, B is third position and most of the notes are slide-out notes. When you press the slide in, you could bend some of the notes down to produce a B scale, but it would sound bad and be much harder than simply using the slide.
So there's really no point in trying to relate B to a separately named position on the slide-in side of the harmonica. With 12 keys, you'd have to come up with 24 different positions, 12 for the A side and 12 for the Bb side - even though they would play identically.
So why not make things a whole lot easier and simply relate all the potential position names to the labeled key of the harmonica?
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jun 07, 2013 10:10 PM
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fred_gomez
92 posts
Jun 07, 2013
10:21 PM
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make a chart for chromatic harmonica positions because i cant understand a damn thing your saying, you say bending notes is possible and its possible to play chrome in 2nd then you say its impossible, then you say playing in the key of B in 8th position on a Bb harmonica is impossible. make a godamn chart. sounds to me like im in key you say its impossible to play in B on a Bb chrome then how in shits hell am i doing it?
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WinslowYerxa
327 posts
Jun 07, 2013
10:45 PM
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I never said anything was impossible.
Bending notes is possible and many players do it. Bends work a little differently on chromatic, though. You can bend notes farther on chromatics, and all the notes bend, except the unvalved blow notes in the top octave.
However, bends on chromatic don't sound as rich, and they're harder to sustain and control.
For these reasons, players tend to use bends on chromatic for expressive reasons and not to supply missing notes. After all, there are no missing notes. Every note in the chromatic scale has its own dedicated reed. You just have to use the slide button to get at some of them. They're easier to play than the bent notes and they sound better.
The position chart for chromatics is the same as for diatonics. EXCEPT that it only applies to the labeled key. So for an A chromatic, you don't relate positions to the Bb side of the harp, just to the labeled key side.
I mean, seriously, what's to be gained by trying to relate B to the Bb side of a chromatic when it plays the same as when you relate it to the A side? It's a completely useless complication.
Admittedly some players use a shorthand for 10th position (Key of C on an A harmonica) on chromatic, calling it "third with the slide in." This is tempting because you *can* play in C that way, but it's also limiting because it shuts out many other possibilities for 10th position that don;t play like 3rd, and it shreds the logic of the position system.
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Winslow
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puri
98 posts
Jun 07, 2013
11:52 PM
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"Admittedly some players use a shorthand for 10th position (Key of C on an A harmonica) on chromatic, calling it "third with the slide in." This is tempting because you *can* play in C that way, but it's also limiting because it shuts out many other possibilities for 10th position that don;t play like 3rd, and it shreds the logic of the position system."
I think I see where the disscusion started, the laziness of blues players who'll never go beyond "third with the slide in" and insist with this idea fustrated the more serious chrom players. The thought itself even denies the chromaticism of the chromatic harmonica.
I agree that if a player move even one tiny step further from "third with the slide in" and start releasing button, trying another positions and all that then "third with the button in" idea messes up the proper system. Although some players may never enter that teritory so they'll be fine either way they look at it.
Since, every chrom in any key has all the notes available. Is there any general rules/ideas to find the most convenience key chrom for a certain song? Does it have something to do with the use of button and breath pattern?
Last Edited by puri on Jun 09, 2013 6:34 PM
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Gnarly
600 posts
Jun 08, 2013
12:04 AM
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Yes, certain keys are more legato than others, and that would lead one to try keyed chromatics.
But I have been down that road, and trying not to resort to keyed chromatics (didn't throw 'em away tho LOL).
I am big time into the concept of position+slide, using bebop tuning, since C+slide=C# and F+slide=F# with no button pushes and Bb+slide=B and G+slide=Ab with only one button push or release--that's eight of the twelve keys right there.
Oh, and for those of you unfamiliar with bebop, it is a retune of the fourth hole blow C (and C#), usually to Bb, but also to A (that's the bebop tuning Winslow uses).
So instead of three C notes (on draw button 4, blow 4 and blow 5), you have three enharmonics in a row, Bb, B and C.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jun 08, 2013 12:07 AM
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puri
99 posts
Jun 08, 2013
12:20 AM
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A couple of questions;
Why does it called bebop? Is it more suitable for jazz runs or does it created with a certain bebop lick in mind?
"So instead of three C notes (on draw button 4, blow 4 and blow 5), you have three enharmonics in a row, Bb, B and C. " Did you mean chromatics rather than enharmonics?
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fred_gomez
93 posts
Jun 08, 2013
4:42 AM
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ok i totally give up i must be the stupidest player on the planet. if i have a 12 hole chromatic in the key of A and i have the button depressed all the time and im playing in the key of B what the hell is the position called in anal retentive chromatic playing.
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WinslowYerxa
328 posts
Jun 08, 2013
8:20 AM
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@fred gomez - If you have an A chromatic and hold the slide in and never let it out, how can you play in B at all? B doesn't exist on the slide-in side of an A chromatic.
Can you describe the hole and breath you're playing to get the note B with the slide pressed in? Maybe you're hitting another note and calling it B.
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jun 08, 2013 8:20 AM
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WinslowYerxa
329 posts
Jun 08, 2013
8:54 AM
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Bebop scales (there are a few different versions) add a note to the 7-note major scale to make an even numbered 8-note scale.
C major scale: C D E F G A B
C bebop scale: C D E F G A Bb B
So what's the point of doing that?
Let's say you're playing over a C major chord (C, E, G) and you're going up the scale playing two notes per beat:
CD EF GA (so far so good, the chord notes are on the beat)
But then: BC DE FG AB - all of a sudden non-chord tones (B, D, F, A) are getting the emphasis by landing right on the beat and messing up the relationship between melody notes and the backing chord.
Now look what happens with that added note:
CD EF GA BbB and then CD EF GA BbB - etc.
So the chord notes always stay on the beat. However, you also have to accept the Bb as part of the chord.That can work well in blues where 7th chords are the rule and not the exception.
However, to avoid that 7th chord feel, there's another bebop scale that gives a more neutral flavor:
C D E F G G# A B
Now when you go up the scale you get
CD EF GG# AB then CD EF GG# AB etc.
So you get an implied chord of C E G A (A C major 6th chord).
This is more compatible with the feeling of playing in C in a non-blues context.
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jun 08, 2013 12:17 PM
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Gnarly
601 posts
Jun 08, 2013
9:16 AM
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@puri Nope, I meant Enharmonics.
Bb is draw 3 button, but also 4 blow.
B is draw 4, but also 4 draw button.
C is draw 4 button, but also 5 blow.
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fred_gomez
94 posts
Jun 08, 2013
10:29 AM
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well lets see blues is a 1 a 4 and a 5. i play the A chrome in 3rd which is B right? when i do my ride to make things a bit different im still mostly drawing in 3rd button out then as im drawing i depress the button and glissando all the way to the high notes i dunnoi dont have eyes on my lips my best guess is holes 789 and 10. then i do a bunch of tweaky ear annoying stuff that could be blow bends i dont know because im not a musical genius so i do some tweaky draws and blows on the high end of the harp see how far i can push it withoutr hitting a train wreck then i let the button out and go back to playing normal not crazy in third position B. i do this with all chroms not just the key of A and it always works. now either im tone deaf and i suck and they invite me onstage at jams just to be nice and no guitarist is ever nice to a harmonica player or i am doing something right that they like. so if im not playing in B maybe im playing the 4 in E or the 5 in F# i have no clue all i know is it works.
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WinslowYerxa
330 posts
Jun 08, 2013
12:14 PM
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If the song is in B and you're playing an A chromatic, then you're still in third position when you play in that key.
Whatever physical action you take to make notes come out, and wherever you go on the harp, it's still in relation to the key of B because that's the key the band is playing in. So maybe you're playing stuff that works in the key of B, or maybe you'e playing some atonal stuff that creates excitement by being dissonant (Jazz players call this playing "outside") before you step back inside the normal notes.
But whatever you do, as long as you're playing an A harmonica (whether it's chromatic or diatonic) and as long as the band is playing it B, you'e in third position.
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Winslow
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WinslowYerxa
331 posts
Jun 08, 2013
12:22 PM
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"Since, every chrom in any key has all the notes available. Is there any general rules/ideas to find the most convenience key chrom for a certain song? Does it have something to do with the use of button and breath pattern?"
There are several considerations that may lead you to choose a particular key of chromatic for a particular tune:
Range - do the lowest notes in the melody fit, or are some of them missing? Maybe a lower key harmonica would give you those notes (or a lower-pitched C chromatic).
Chords - two-note harmonies and three- and four-note chords that fit with the tune may be more plentiful on a particular key of chomatic - if those combinations are important to the way you want to play the tune.
Slide effect - sometimes jabbing the slide in, or dipping it out, while playing a note will produce a cool effect and that may work best for that tune (or for that key or scale) on a particular key of harmonica.
Smooth melodic moves - Every time you change breath direction you interrupt the flow of the melody. If you look at the key of the harmonica on the circle of fifths, the scales on the counter-clockwise side of the harmonica key will play with the fewest breath changes, and hence the smoothest melodic lines.
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jun 08, 2013 12:23 PM
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Pistolcat
394 posts
Jun 08, 2013
12:53 PM
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Positions concept is very confusing to use with chromatics. The whole purpose is to relate to the Ionian scale that is first position on a standard richter diatonic. It is implied that the position you are playing is somewhat related to the "natural" mode of that key in regard to the first position (ionian) scale. That's how I see it anyway. I think that I'm fitting the blues scale over a Dorian mode instrument when in third or, mixolydian when in second or Ionian when in first. Or maybe I'm fitting a natural minor (aeolian) over that Dorian in third if I don't want to play in fourth and have that natural minor with the "natural" mode of the position.
.... Wow, I confused myself with that post. Hope someone gets my point, which, strictly, is completely wrong.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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Pistolcat
395 posts
Jun 08, 2013
1:04 PM
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... How do you use the position concept when you relate to non-standard richter diatonics? For example: I have an LO harmonic minor harp in C(m). If I'm to play a song in E, I'll have my keynotes (E) on 5D half bend and 2D one and a half bend and 8B half bend. Would you still call that fifth? If I were to play a song in Eb, I'd have the keynotes (Eb) on 2B, 5B and 8B. Would you still call it tenth position? In these cases I personally think it makes more sense just calling the key...
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Jun 08, 2013 1:07 PM
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puri
100 posts
Jun 08, 2013
1:29 PM
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@Gnarly, aha, I see what you mean. I was just thinking about C enharmonics.
@Winslow, your list of things to consider a proper key harp for the song makes a lot of sense. Thanks.
About bebop tuning, is that what most jazz player use? Is there any cons to it?
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WinslowYerxa
332 posts
Jun 08, 2013
3:08 PM
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Bebop tuning is used by Bill Barrett. But most of the well known jazz harmonica players use the standard solo tuning - Toots Thielemans, Grégoire Maret, Mike Turk, Henrdik Meurkens, Hermine Deurloo, and many others.
In most cases, they've learned to play thousands of cross-connections between notes and blinding speed, and disturbing that foundation might throw them off.
Bebop tuning does allow you to avoid the confusion of the side-by-side Cs, and offers you alternate ways to play Bb and B (as blow notes instead of draw notes, and adds some chordal possibilities. It can also help create consistent blow-draw sequences for some scales.
By at the same tim, it introduces a harmony that can conflict in some situations, and maks it harder to smoothly connect notes that normally connect with the left-side C, such as G and Ab.
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Winslow
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WinslowYerxa
333 posts
Jun 08, 2013
3:12 PM
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Non-standard diatonics can be a bit of a mess. But the harmonic minor harp is very straightforward.
The harp is still in the key of C. It may be set up to play a specific scale by default (i.e., without using bends, or a slide if it's a chromatic).But it' still in the key of C. So C is still first position, G is second, and so on
Remember, positions have nothing to do with scales.
The ONLY thing that defines a position is the relationship between the key of the harmonica and the key you play it in.
It may be that without bends or using the slide, you get a certain scale by default in a certain position. But that's a secondary effect and not part of the definition.
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jun 08, 2013 3:15 PM
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Gnarly
602 posts
Jun 08, 2013
4:42 PM
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Altered tunings make positional thinking problematic--
But it can usually be used, since these instruments are usually still tuned to chords that fit the major scale.
There are two tunings for the chromatic, however, that do not fit this description.
They are diminished and augmented tunings.
I'm not sure how you would use positional thinking with these.
Winslow, your thoughts.
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Gnarly
603 posts
Jun 08, 2013
4:46 PM
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"Remember, positions have nothing to do with scales."
But isn't first position the key of the harmonica?
And as such, isn't that usually defined by its scale?
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WinslowYerxa
335 posts
Jun 08, 2013
5:13 PM
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OK, you've got a point, Gnarly.
I should amend that to positions have nothing to do with the *type* of scale that's played in the labeled key. Or what type of scale the various positions may produce by default.
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Winslow
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WinslowYerxa
336 posts
Jun 08, 2013
5:21 PM
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On augmented and diminished tunings, which are not tuned to a key:
Both these tunings allow you to play in all keys by learning scale and chord patterns for just a few keys instead of all 12.
For instance, on an augmented tuned chromatic anything you can play in the keybof uses the exact same actions for the keys of Ab and C, just moved to a different location on the harp. Likewise, D, F# and Bb play the same way in different locations, as do Eb, G and B, and also Db, F and A.
So you really need to learn only four key patterns. These could be thought of as resembling positions, as they "transpose" their patterns to other keys. Only you don't even need to switch harps to transpose the patterns - you just have to play them in a different place on the same harp.
Same goes for diminished tuning, which has only three sets of patterns:
One for C, Eb, F#, and A
One for C#, E, G, and Bb
one for D, F, Ab, and B.
Each of these could be thought of as external positions.
And if you had augmented od diminished harps with different starting notes, those patterns would also produce different keys on those harps - closer to the usual harmonica meaning of "position."
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Winslow
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colman
250 posts
Jun 08, 2013
5:34 PM
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Toots,whats the theory of his harp chromatic harp playing ?
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WinslowYerxa
337 posts
Jun 08, 2013
5:36 PM
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Not sure what you mean by theory.
Toots plays a C chromatic and thinks keys, not positions - if you never play more than one key of harmonica then you don't need to think about positions.
He's also studied music theory deeply but plays on the level of having absorbed it, forgetting about it and just playing.
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jun 08, 2013 5:47 PM
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Opus314
2 posts
Jun 08, 2013
6:25 PM
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Maybe somebody said this but 'positions' are based on the circle of 4th's going backwards... (i.e. circle of 5th's)
(Google circle of 4ths and look at images to see 'em all)
Anyway, each position is a 5th higher...
And if you consider the normal 'key' of the harmonica as the 'first position'
You just go round the circle of 5th's to get to each successive position.
To make it simple use the classic 'C' harmonica...
C = 1st position
G = 2nd position (5th higher than C)
D = 3rd position (5th higher than G)
etc
keep going and you will have a position based on all 12 notes...
They could have defined the 'positions' as a half step higher than the previous note or a whole step or a third or whatever... but for whatever reason they chose a 5th higher.
Circle of 4th's
C G A D E F#/Gb Db/C# Ab/G# Eb/D# Bb/A# F C
Pick any starting note and go backwards so your going in 5th's.
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WinslowYerxa
339 posts
Jun 08, 2013
6:40 PM
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The reason the circle of fifths was chosen seems to have been that second position happens to be a fifth higher than first, and third is a fifth higher than second. For years people numbered other positions in whatever way they fancied - probably in the order that each person (or writer) stumbed on them.
Then, around 1980, someone got the bright idea to make the whole thing consistent by just continuing the position numbers by following the circle of fifths.
Second position was the second one used widely because it has that nice full draw chord in the first four holes.That itself is directly related to the fact that the second most important chord in any key is the on pitched a fifth higher than the tonic chord (the home chord of the key).
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Winslow
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WinslowYerxa
340 posts
Jun 08, 2013
6:41 PM
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What you're calling the circle of 4ths is usually called the circle of 5ths:
C goes UP a fifth to G goes UP a fifth to D and so on.
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Winslow
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Gnarly
605 posts
Jun 09, 2013
12:36 AM
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I switched to bebop fairly early on when I discovered Bill Barrett uses it--I now do repairs for him, and asked him about how he started on it. He said he discovered it on his own, and then found out others have used it too.
I recommend everyone try it--as Winslow says, the major hang is that you get a C7 chord on the blow, not the right thing for Moon River LOL
But for blues, it rocks! Two great chords, G7 draw (albeit with no root) and C7 blow, if you use an instrument that starts on G like I do, it lends itself to blues in G, also works well in Bb, F and C.
I work on other people's chroms, and it's always a pain when I get to hole 4 and discover I have no Bb there!
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jun 09, 2013 9:10 AM
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puri
102 posts
Jun 09, 2013
6:48 PM
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The Dim/Aug tunings make a lot of sense to me as a violinist. I can relate to these methods a lot quicker than other tunings. If one going to look at it as a single line instrument suitable for jazz like saxophone for example, it's seem to me that one chrom with Dim/Aug tuning (without position thinking) kinda make sense.
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puri
103 posts
Jun 09, 2013
6:56 PM
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"He's also studied music theory deeply but plays on the level of having absorbed it, forgetting about it and just playing."
I have this similar approach the harps & blues but this thread is really cracking the seal..
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Shaganappi
29 posts
Jun 11, 2013
6:23 AM
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IMO, the position concept was constructed to enable thinking of a general nature per what overall scale a player tends to be comfortable in. Yes, a good chromatic player may be able to dance circles around the instrument via knowing much more than the average guy, but it has to be kept in mind that positions are to make things EASIER per playing for the average player. Call it a crutch, call it a tool - whatever.
So with that generality in mind, I disagree that most people should be thinking that Eb is 10th position on a C harp. As most (blues players), at least in the beginning, would play a C harp either with the button mostly always in or always out with 3rd position in a diatonic fashion, few players would think that they are playing in 10th. They consider their instrument to be either a C or a C# at that moment and play according. It is parallel to that most diatonic players "think" that they are playing on a C diatonic per the note set they play (CEGCEGCEGC, etc) even though they may have a harp stamped Bb (with entirely different notes) or whatever in their hand at the time.
Action sequences are therefore much more important than key relationships. I still agree, we should know what key, etc. is being played for various reasons, but the relative relationships of the notes should dominate the thinking of how positions should be looked at for most players. To do otherwise is essentially offering a tool to the very elite players almost similar to offering spring powered legs to an Olympic runner. It is just not what the tool was meant for.
It has been said that position should be defined by key relationships, not by action patterns but that is not how the tool was originally used as. Only since when it fell into the theorist hands, has this concept of key been embraced over action IMO.
Further, it keeps getting said that we should choose the key per position per the STAMPED key. Why choose C as opposed to C# then? What precedence has one over the other? What if the button action was reversed and C# was with button out and C in? It could be done that way for certain. Or what if it was made somehow with more than one button (maybe in, out and halfway for instance or with a button to raise it a whole step for some arcane reason). I maintain that it is arbitrary what we call the harp in comparison to the "feel" of what scale we are more or less playing. Face it, except for experts, most average players "feel" they are playing in D when they are playing 3rd, whether they have that button in most of the time or out most of the time.
A bit OT, a word about notation. I write the position as: D=3xC for when the button is out on a C harp. And Eb=3xC# when the button is engaged. If an action pattern of 10th was the focus, it would be Eb=10xC for the button out or E=10xC# (I think) for the button in. To be more clear, I generally actually also state it in the fashion of D=3xC harp (or even "key of D=3xC harp") so it is clearly obvious that a C harp is being used in 3rd position to equal the key of D.
I have learned a lot from reading this thread and humbly thank everyone. But I strongly feel that the tool of positions is being pushed too far to the side of keys v. actions at least for most blues players. If most players think 3rd position v. 10th, then let's say more explicitly per what we are feeling.
And that the notation per the use of positions could be somewhat improved v. saying "playing a C harp third with the button in and getting an Eb key". Why not D=3xC harp or similar?
Positions may be used quite differently for other instruments, like a guitar capo, a keyboard changer, etc., but the 144 basic variants of the harp needs to have an easy way for the actions to be made simpler by this tool called positions. I disagree that overall learning it in the action mode would stunt your growth and create mental traps.
And even though there is only one mouthpiece the chromatic is two "virtual" instruments for most, even to LW types I suspect.
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Gnarly
606 posts
Jun 11, 2013
7:22 AM
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I don't have any problem thinking about Ebm as being third position, but Eb major simply does't work--the third note of the scale is G, that is a blow note, and the seventh of the scale is a blow button in D but a draw note without in Eb!
I can see how C and Db are equivalent, all the same moves, also F and F# (I have a Bb given, so the same button moves).
So I don't "feel" I am playing third position if I am playing in Eb major, only if the tonality is minor.
Oh, and I never do the typical third position noodle thing, I think that particular endeavor is at the heart of this discussion.
It is possible that most blues players aren't using the instrument as a chromatic, they just like the octaves and the tone. And so they only use it in two keys!
As I said, for me it is more about shape (I can't explain exactly) than the numbered positions.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jun 11, 2013 7:24 AM
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tmf714
1796 posts
Jun 11, 2013
8:28 AM
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Kim Wilson from the "Tigerman" CD-
"When the Lights Go Out"- Hohner 64 C Chromatic in third position withthe button held in.
The song is in the key of Eb-
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tmf714
1802 posts
Jun 14, 2013
3:28 PM
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I want to hear someone play the above in 10th position on a C chromatic-
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REM
229 posts
Jun 14, 2013
5:00 PM
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Tmf714,
You've already heard someone doing that, because that's exactly what Kim is doing. Eb on a C harmonica (diatonic or chromatic) is 10th position. It may easier/helpful for some people to think of it as playing 3rd position with the button in, but technically it is in fact 10th position. This is what Winslow has been explaining.
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Shaganappi
30 posts
Jun 14, 2013
10:23 PM
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Winslow certainly knows waaay more about this stuff than I ever will but I still don't understand one very important item:
I did not hear anyone address why one justifies calling a C Chromatic, a C harp instead of a C# harp for purposes of choosing position 3 or 10. Just because it is stamped on the body? Why the precedence of one over the other? What if the button action was reversed and C# was with button out and C in? Or if it was made somehow with more than one button (maybe in, out and halfway for instance or with a button to raise it a whole step for some arcane reason).
Am I am missing something critical here other than that we commonly "think" of the button engaged can only be designed to sharpen notes a half step? If that can't be answered adequately, then the concept of position correlating with key instead of action is very much flawed IMO as position would be linked to a particular mechanical design and way of thinking other than considering only the key.
Is Eb=3xC# when the button is engaged, the same actions and thinking as Eb=10xC for the button out for a C/C# Chrom? Whether it is C or C# as the base to calculate postition is critical to be determined first and should be done other than just by convention of what is stamped on the harp.
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WinslowYerxa
347 posts
Jun 14, 2013
10:25 PM
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Kim uses the slide several times during this solo. If this were 3rd, he'd have to press the button in to get the chromatic notes. But because he's in 10th, he has to let the button out instead.
For instance, several times from 1:43 to 1:50, and again at 1:56, he plays the flat 5 of the scale by letting the button OUT on Draw 3/7 (he's playing in octaves, and I'm counting the way the numbers appear on a modern 64 - Hole 1 is actually the 5th hole from the left).
If he were playing that note in third position, he'd have to play BLOW instead of draw in the same holes, and he'd have to press the button IN instead of letting it out.
So third and 10th positions become different the moment you start using the slide button.
Which supports the obvious fact that a chromatic harmonica is one harmonica, not two.
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Winslow
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WinslowYerxa
348 posts
Jun 14, 2013
10:45 PM
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@Shaganappi -
First, when the chromatic harmonica was first designed, the notes of the C# scale were added to the C scale, not the other way around. The slide-out position was where the "regular" notes were, and you didn't have to do anything to put it there -that's how it came. If you pressed the slide button in, you got the "altered" notes that were raised a semitone. But that spring-loaded button resisted your finger. It pushed back to get you to return to return to the out position.
Early chromatic books explained that while the chromatic harmonica could technically play in any key, the "proper" was to play is is to play it in the key it's tuned to (such as C) and to use the slide only for the occasional sharp or flat as needed.
The idea that flats and sharps are "dark side" black-key disturbances to the normal white-key universe goes back about 1200 years and has never entirely left us. As recently as 200 years ago most wind instruments could only play in a few keys, while trumpets and French horns were completely diatonic. - Again, any note outside the key was not only a disturbance but an inconvenience and perhaps an impossibility.
Look at key signatures - the sharps and flats used to alter the "natural" "white" notes to create scales other than C major. C major has no sharps or flats, while C# has 7 - all seven notes are altered - no longer "natural." Or you could call that key D-flat, but then you'd have to alter 5 of the 7 notes - still a big "disturbance."
The point is that there'a lot of historical and intellectual gravity to the key of C being thought of as the main key of a C chromatic. That same system then transfers to all other keys of chromatic.
Some players do flip the slide upside-down so that in the slide-out position it plays the higher of the two scales (such as C# on a C harmonica), and when you press the slide it, the notes dip in pitch by a semitone. That called flat-slide playing, and some Irish -style players do it, using a flat-slide chromatic in either F# (to play in G) or in B (to play in C).
But the fact is that we have an existing and well established convention of naming the key of a chromatic harmonica for the lower of the two scales. There's no point in trying to change that nomenclature, as nothing is to be gained by it. You can play the harmonica in a flat-slide style if you want, or dream up all sorts of alternate tunings, but the idea that the 12 possible key relations relate to the stamped key still works just fine for standard tuning and many of its alterations.
And I'll say it again, dividing a single harmonica into two harmonicas is a dead end. It will stunt your growth as a musician if you aspire to do anything in addition to playing off the big minor draw chords. I love those big minor draw chords, but I also love fish and chip - just can't eat it every day.
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WInslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jun 14, 2013 11:13 PM
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1847
836 posts
Jun 14, 2013
10:55 PM
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i got an idea... lets all go out and buy a Db chromatic
then we can just play the song in third position and enjoy the music.
if you can figure out what notes to play on what harmonica
that is all that really matters.
like iceman said once... dont worry bout the semantics
just play the damn thing!
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PASS THE HAT
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Shaganappi
31 posts
Jun 15, 2013
2:48 AM
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Am not disputing whether Kim is playing Eb=10xC (v. Eb=3xC#). Just that a player could theoretically play it either way, basing it on C or C# and that if position notation only showed the relationship of the stamped key to the resultant key, then there is no way to describe the Eb=3xC# situation.
Historical reasons of whether C came first and then the C# slide should not matter per the aspect of position which should indicate the mode of playing of whether the "base" is C or C#. Are we saying that Eb=3xC# is impossible? No - it theoretically can be played as such. Did I understand this correctly?
It is fine to agree that the stamped name of the harp is C but that is not relevant to how it is being played. Certainly, better playing may be attained by thinking along the lines of an integral type of instrument as opposed to the dual concept, but that is not the main point of what I am trying to say.
I am sure that no one would say that if a Db/D Chromatic were to be made like 1847 has suggested, that we would stamp it as a D just because there would be "less disturbances" in the key signature. That should not be a relevant issue.
I am not trying to change position conventions. Just trying to see why we cannot have Eb=3xC# if that is the way it is being played. Maybe I am not getting something … May I am too thick headed ?
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SuperBee
1220 posts
Jun 15, 2013
4:22 AM
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To my mind the thing about "position" is that its an idea which perhaps helpful when moving between harps of different keys. So position on one diatonic harp can be related to a diatonic harp in a different key.
It just happens that the diatonic 3rd is also quite a useful concept to transfer to a chromatic for some songs. It quickly becomes less useful for songs which require use of the slide.
Position can also be a useful concept for chromatic players who move between different keys of chromatic harp. But it's different to diatonic and not particularly transferable in a practical way.
In general it's not helpful to tell a diatonic player they need to play 10th position on a chromatic, for a song which would be played in 3rd position on a Db diatonic. If you said play 3rd with the slide in, that may be helpful.
I guess it may sometimes be helpful to say unhelpful impractical but correct things in answer to a question, as it may provoke an informative (if occasionally somewhat vexed) discussion like this.
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Gnarly
610 posts
Jun 15, 2013
8:10 AM
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If it helps you play, do it.
I would never try to tell a harmonica player to use 10th position.
I just think of it as Eb.
However, on my harmonica, it comes up as 10th position. I notice it, and move on.
Ultimately, the chromatic harmonica is chromatic, and you can play any note of the (tempered) universe of notes without bending. So this whole discussion is fairly moot.
Still, it is hard enough to play a discrete note on the chrom, positions help me! So once I know the position (based on a chord, even tho all notes cannot always be sounded together), I find the desired note by thinking of the number of the chord, or scale. Sometimes I just think of the letter name.
If you are using a chromatic harmonica as a chord instrument, you don't have to select a note per se, you are just riffing on the draw chord.
The fact that you can do the same maneuver with the button pushed in does not mean you are playing chromatically, so in that sense, it is two harmonicas.
Thoughts and theories are fine, the sound is the goal and also the proof.
So practice will lead you to your goal, and position numbers are just another tool. If you don't like hammers, use the other end of a wrench.
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dougharps
403 posts
Jun 15, 2013
8:41 AM
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I agree with Gary, 100%: "If it helps you play, do it."
I think it is good to know the different ways people think about diatonic and chromatic keys/positions/modes. It may help you improve and learn new ways of playing by trying out new ways of thinking about keys and positions. Ultimately it is about playing music.
You should use whatever frame of reference that best serves you in making the music you want to make.
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Doug S.
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WinslowYerxa
349 posts
Jun 15, 2013
4:15 PM
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If you had a Db diatonic. you could call it third position.
But Kim is playing on a C chromatic and he is *using* the *slide*. When you do that, 10th position plays differently from third, as I already detailed.
And if you could get a Db chromatic (which would be an expensive custom job), Kim's solo would still not play like "third position with the slide in" on a C chromatic. To play the chromatic notes that Kim uses, you'd be pressing the slide in where Kim is letting it out, and you'd be blowing where he is is drawing.
Even if you play in 10th and never move the slide, you have to hold it in with your finger and resist the spring. That alone, even though it may sound trivial, makes a difference.
Calling it 10th is actually clearer overall. Calling it third is an attractive shortcut, but like many shortcuts, it can end up being costly.
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jun 15, 2013 4:16 PM
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Shaganappi
32 posts
Jun 15, 2013
8:05 PM
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As said before, I am NOT disputing whether Kim is playing Eb=10xC (v. Eb=3xC#). I am sure Winslow is likely right on that point that Kim is playing 10th. I am just asking that if a player could theoretically play it (or a similar piece with few or no slides for a much better example) as if in 3rd, basing it on C# basically like a player would on a Db Diatonic (maybe even with the slide taped in), would you describe what the player is doing as Eb=10xC per the relationship of the stamped key C to the resultant key of Eb or would you show it as Eb=3xC# ?
At that point, if taped shut, it is basically a single diatonic. To take it a small step further, if you used the slide one or two times, would you still avoid calling it Eb=3xC# ? I am not talking about using the EXACT example of Kim's but with a simple piece that does not require many slides if any.
I am trying to demonstrate with this graduated example (taped in - to a couple of slides - to more than a few slides) that the question becomes greyer and without the designation of the base C# assumed, it makes little sense not to call it 3rd. Keep in mind, that I am NOT talking about the particular piece that Kim is playing. Pick one that is easy and similar to what would be played on 3rd on a Diatonic.
Sometimes, according to how the piece is to be played, it is 3rd on a Chromatic, sometimes 10th IMO. It would depend on the emphasis of the base used, whether C or C#. In Kim's case, apparently C is the basis so call it 10th. But other pieces (or maybe even that piece?) as much closer to using C#.
Last Edited by Shaganappi on Jun 15, 2013 8:06 PM
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Piro39
43 posts
Jun 15, 2013
8:48 PM
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To jump in here, positions relates to whatever the home key of the harmonica is which is 1st position. C Chromatic Ist position A Chromatic Ist position etc. and goes around the cycle of 5th from there. Position relates to key. There are many different kinds of scales in a key.Yes in 3rd or 10 position one can play blues with a minor pentatonic scale without using the slide [10th has the slide pushed in]. I play in both these positions and use the slide a lot which give a more embellished kind of phrasing. So many players have slide phobia. The slide is your best friend it's like avoiding certain notes on a piano, it's just another note. If we are playing some blues in 3rd position key of D on a C chromatic. The I chord is D and we are in 3rd position as our home base it changes to the IV chord G we can look at this as a change to 2nd position and when we go to the V chord A we can look at it as 4th position and back to D 3rd position. Of course we can play the D blues scale over all three changes. With either approach we always come back to the tonic which is in 3rd position. I understand this position concept on the chromatic but I'm really thinking about key.
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