I'm starting to get the basics of music theory by now. Scales, how chords are formed out of scales, chord progressions, etc. But there are still 3 things I'm still confused about. Here they are:
1. Modes: If you start the major scale (2-2-1-2-2-2-1 half steps) you are playing it in the first mode. Starting on the second note (2-1-2-2-2-1-2) you are in the 2nd mode of the major scale. That I understand. But: Can you do that for the other scales too, like the melodic or natural minor scale or the blues scale? Or do modes only apply to the major scale?
2. Modes and minor scales: I've read everywhere that by playing in the second mode gives you a minor mode. This is because you get the minor third in there, or am I wrong? (Is this the only criterium: minor third present or not?) Are the minor scales the same as a certain mode of the major scale?
3. Positions on the harp: 3rd and 5th position on the harp are called minor positions. 2nd and 12th are major positions. Why is that? Using bends, overblows and overdraws gets you the complete chromatic scale, so any scale (major or minor) can be played in every position?
Thanks in advance, my best wishes to everyone for newyear,
Modes are a type of diatonic scale. Each of the six most commonly used positions are associated with a particular mode. Playing in that particular position does not necessarily mean you will be playing in that mode, but in that position you can play that mode somewhere on that harmonica WITHOUT HAVING TO BEND or OB.
The do-re-mi scale is the IONIAN mode and can be played in FIRST position. The notes are a whole step apart, except the 3rd and 4th degrees of the scale and the 7th and 8th degrees of the scale which are each a half step apart. In other modes, the location of these half step intervals will be different.
The modes associated with the six most commonly used positions are as follows:
Aeolean is the natural minor scale (flat 3, flat 6 and flat 7).
Dorian is also a minor scale with a flat 3 and flat 7 but no flat 6.
Phrygian also has the natural minor scale. but also has a flat 2. However, if you avoid the flat 2, You've got the natural minor scale in an easy to play format. (I love fifth position.)
In selecting which position to play in, one selects a mode that provides most of the notes required to play a particular tune without having to bend or OB and then one bends or OBs for the remaining notes that are needed. Personally, I don't OB, but I do play in multiple positions. I think in terms of modes when I select which position to play in for a particular tune.
Btw, if you start on 6 draw of any Richter tuned diatonic harp, you will be playing in the relative minor of the key of that harp. For example, doing this on a C harp will put you in A minor (Fourth Position, Aeolean mode.) Now, A minor has exactly the same notes as C major, you just start on a different note for the first note of the scale. Accordingly, Fourth Position is actually a straight harp position since you are playing the harmonica in the key that it is in.
I realize this does not answer the precise questions you are asking, but I hope that it is of some help.
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 7:37 AM
Micha, To my non-professional knowledge, your understanding of things is correct. I.e., other scales can have modes; minor scales have a flat third (compared to major); the positions are associated with the major or minor scales that can be most easily played (without bends or overblows, as hvyj said), although in the modern world of overblows there are no restrictions any more.
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 9:30 AM
So, a position is called minor if the associated mode, that is easily played (without bends or overblows), is a minor mode. And this means that this mode has a minor third in it?
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 11:58 AM
Yes, but don't attach too much significance to that characterization. For example, if a player knows what he is doing, third position can be used to play major or minor scales w/o OBs and second can also be used to play major or minor scales w/o OBs.
So, just because you are in a minor mode or minor position that does not necessarily mean that you can only play in a minor key in that position, and just because you may be in a major mode or major position, that does not necessarily mean you can't play in a minor key. Some positions are more flexible in this regard than others.
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2009 2:55 PM
Micha, I thought you might find this excerpt from an old post on harp-l interesting:
When we label a position major or minor or describe it as a particular mode; all we're doing is indicating the easiest, most accessible way of using it. This doesn't mean that doing something else with it is impossible, impractical, or even difficult. Fact is, it could be quite easy. The danger of using these labels is that a lot of people aren't going to do anything else with a position but use it according to its description.
I wasn't the one who posted this, but I certainly agree with it.
I'd ban the term "minor position" or "major position" all togeather as it only creates confusion.
I'd also refrain from all the talk about modes alltogeather. You don't need it until you play jazz, so why teach it to beginners? It makes people think that it is something they actually need to know. It is especially confusing because the way it is taught (as far as I understand) is not the way it is actually used.
EDIT: To be more specific, the way I understood from all the webpages of music theory 101 is that you can get all the modes by taking one harp and playing the major scale and just starting on a different note. Although this might be an easy way of explaining it, it doesn't adress the most important part of how the modes are actually used.
As far as I understood, the modes aren't always derived from this one major scale (using this one harp in a certain key). It is rather the case that while playing/improvising you can use a certain mode and then swith to another mode which starts from the same note. That means you would either have to use another harp (unlikely) or use bends and overblows.
If my understanding of modes is correct then teaching it the way that it is done or even somehow connecting it to certain positions doesn't make sense.
I'd teach scales the way it is classically done in music theory. Ok, maybe starting with the blues scale, but then the major scale, minor harmonic, minor melodic. And only when you got all the music theory down to a pretty advanced level, I'd go on to modes. Why teach them when you're years away from using them?
hvyi, we obviously think very differently in terms of music theory and when I say, "it doesn't make sense". Of course it only doesn't make sense to me... Although it may seem this way I don't want to imply that a certain method is better or worse - obviously it works for you. ---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-)
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 8:37 AM
Well, German Harpist, I don't consider it necessary to make things more complicated than they need to be. As a practical matter, if a diatonic harmonica player can learn the major pentatonic scale in first position, the major pentatonic scale in second position and the minor pentatonic scale in third position, the same breath patterns will also generate major pentatonic and minor pentatonic scales in 3 other positions. Add the blues scale in second position to this and (assuming a a decent ear and feel) the the player will have sufficient technical command of the instrument to be able to improvise solos over a wide variety of material in 6 positions with no advanced music theory required and no OBs.
Since diatonic harps are, by definition, diatonic instruments, I find it useful to use diatonic modes as a reference point. I don't OB, so it's not like playing piano. You don't have a 12 tone chromatic scale, you don't even have a full 7 tone diatonic scale in all octaves and in many positions, the 7 tone scale you do have is a mode. AND you can't build chords like you can on a keyboard or a guitar which may be the most limiting factor of all.
Nothing wrong with learning more advanced music theory. But for live performance playing with other musicians in public on different kinds of material, as a practical matter, a player can get a whole lot of mileage out of what I've just summarized. And, btw, modes are used for playing a lot of different kinds of music besides jazz, although jazz players are more likely refer to them by name.
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 7:41 PM
Micha, It's not a question of which scales are more "important.." BUT, pentatonic scales are extremely useful for improvising/soloing over a wide variety of material. This is because the notes of the appropriate pentatonic scale are more likely to be compatible with the chords/chord tones of particular kinds of tunes. So, they enable a player to improvise more easily without having to be careful or without even knowing the tune well in many cases, so long as the player can hear which pentatonic scale to use. Pentatonic scales are more likely to "work" or "fit" in a wide variety of situations and make it easier to play/improvise without hitting bad notes. (Btw, not hitting bad notes is not necessarily the same thing as hitting the "right" notes.) AND, btw, they are relatively easy to play and learning to play the minor pentatonic scale in different positions is an easy way to learn to get around in those other positions.
The MINOR pentatonic scale is made up of the following degrees of the scale: 1, 3b, 4, 5, 7b. The MAJOR pentatonic scale is made up of the following degrees of the scale: 1, 2, 3, 5, 6.
I'll explain the common breath patterns in a separate post. It's really much easier to learn different positions than most people think.
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 4:45 PM
The major pentatonic scale in FIRST position is the same breath pattern as the minor pentatonic scale in FOURTH position. Same notes, same intervals, just start on a different hole.
The major pentatonic scale in SECOND position is the same breath pattern as minor pentatonic scale in FIFTH position. Same notes, same intervals, just start on a different hole.
The minor pentatonic scale in THIRD position is the same breath pattern as the major pentatonic scale in TWELFTH position. Same notes, same intervals, just start on a different hole.
So, learn these 3 breath patterns and learn the blues scale in second position and you will be able to get around well enough in 6 positions to improvise if you've got a good enough ear.
Now, the blues scale is very close to the minor pentatonic scale. Ignoring "blue note" tonality for the moment, you just add a flat 5th to the minor pentatonic scale and you have the blues scale.
I've never seen any instructional materials that explain these relationships this way. But if you can learn these breath patterns, playing in different positions is no problem. Btw, unless you are playing ET harps you may sound out of tune in positions other than First, Second and Third because of all the flat notes on non-ET harps. Also,be aware that the chords available on the instrument won't work in all positions. But the chords available on a diatonic harmonica are so primitive they don't work well with many kinds of music anyway. This is why i said that the most limiting factor about playing a diatonic harmonica is the inability to build chords.
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 4:48 PM
hvyi, my bad, of course it's true that modes are used in many other styles of music than jazz. However, except the ionian and the aeolian they aren't really that common.
" Since diatonic harps are, by definition, diatonic instruments, I find it useful to use diatonic modes as a reference point. " ah ok, that somehow makes sense. However, once you start using ob (and bends) it really isn't a diatonic instrument any more whatever it may be "by definition".
As far as I know most musicians only deal with modes at a very late stage in their musical career simply because modes have minor importance with the big exception of some improvised music (as in jazz).
But I see what you mean. For learning you need a reference point from which you can develop your scales. While I think that modes are a really confusing way to go (but to everyone their own) it really makes sense to use pentatonics. I'm genuinely interested in your post where you explain your patterns. It's really getting to the heart of how one can think about and develop scales and musical expression.
In the two year history of the mbh-forum this topic hasn't been discussed once... and it's about time!
---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-)
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 4:52 PM
Dorian mode is EXTREMELY common. At least as common as Aeolean. It's just that a lot of players who use it don't refer to by name or even as a mode. The Jefferson Airplane hit "White Rabbit" is Phrygian mode. Some tunes by The Doors are in Dorian mode.
Players use modes all the time without necessarily realizing what they are doing. Jazz musicians are just usually more conscious of it when they do it. I view modes as a shorthand way of remembering certain commonly used note/scale patterns. And remember, I don't OB, so I approach the instrument a little differently from those that do. Among other things, this means I need to be able to play in multiple positions in order to play different kinds of material. I figured out the common breath patterns AFTER I learned to play in multiple positions. It would have been a whole lot easier if I had known about them beforehand, like you guys do now.
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 5:23 PM
When a minor key is called, you will always want/need to know if the tune is a natural (Aeolean) minor or a Dorian minor (assuming the musicians you are playing with know the difference, since many of them regularly play in different modes without realizing it). This is important to know because natural minor has a flat 6 and if you play that note major, you won't fool anyone in the room.
Almost all harmonica instruction materials tell you to use Third position for playing in minor keys. But Third position gives you Dorian minor, not natural minor. This means that in Third position you don't have a flat 6 in without bending and in the upper octave you only have major 6 (in draw 7 which can't be bent). SO, if you are trying to play natural minor in Third position, you must scrupulously avoid playing the major 6 or you will sound AWFUL--and I mean REALLY BAD. A better and safer solution for playing in natural minor would be to play in Fifth or Fourth position. Third position is fine for Dorian minor, though.
On a bandstand you have a few seconds to pick your harp after the key is called before the tune starts, so it helps to understand this stuff ahead of time. Btw, I haven't figured out how to play in harmonic minor on a diatonic harp or in melodic minor.
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2009 5:50 PM
I've only skimmed the above posts, so forgive any lack of deferrence.
Modes and major and minor scales are two entirely separate systems; the former predates the latter by several hundered years.
Modes are either major or minor in their character according to their third, but that is where their similarity with the major/minor system ends.
They are two different languages.
No major or minor scale has a minor 2nd; two modes do: those starting on E and B (no accidentals inplied here.)
The confusion arises - as I think GH mentioned above - because they are taught in combination with the diatonic system. That is simply done as a matter of convenience, because some of their melodic patterns will fit over certain chord progressions.
This is an example of modal music, and modes were old when this was written. Hear how it's melodic patterns are familiar, but they don't have the familiar I IV V inevitability of later Western music.
Miles Davis' album "Kind of Blue" also contains examples of modal music. Whatever the historical antecedents are, as a practical matter, modes are just types diatonic scales in which the half step intervals are between different degrees of the scale. If you play the Doors tune, "Riders on the Storm' you are playing Dorian mode. I think this would probably be classified as later Western music.
hvyi, you're right when you say, 'modes are just types diatonic scales in which the half step intervals are between different degrees of the scale,' except for the word 'diatonic'.
Modes, in their classical sense, do not work in the same way; they do not have the same harmonic inevitability of the diatonic/chromatic system.
That is why the piece I embedded above sounds 'old' unlesss - and I'm not trying to be funny, I'm just trying to make a point - unless you've just landed from Mars. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick a.k.a. HarmonicaMick
Maybe I am using the term "diatonic" incorrectly to denote a 7 tone scale as differentiated from a 12 tone chromatic scale. I am generally aware that the historical Gregorian modes had no harmonic structure. But perhaps "diatonic" as a term of art has a different meaning than how I have been using it. Enlighten us.
Diatonic music is based on the 7 notes of the scale, which is also true of the modes.
My understanding is that the diatonic system itself, with the tone - tone - semitone - tone - tone - semitone pattern, or DOH RAY ME, etc, is utterly dependentant on the cadential patterns that emerged after modal music started to fall out of favour, I think circa 1550, though I'm not sure about the date.
The modes themselves were introduced from, I think, the Greeks, and were taken up by, amongst others, the Catholic church.
That is why religious music from that period sounds the way it does: it is still based on the seven notes (diatonic) but it doesn't use the same harmonic conventions to provide the 'harmonic rhythm', as it's called.
It's that harmonic rhythm, i.e., the cadences that are familiar to us now with their I IV V ishness, that differentiates true modal music from the diatonic/chromatic music that we are now familiar with.
As I said above, many of those modal patterens will work above their modern replacements. But, true modal music will rarely be found now, except, I dare say, in jazz, which can be be as avant garde or traditional as you like.
I hope I've explained myself. It's not a simple subject to try and encapsulate in a few sentences. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick a.k.a. HarmonicaMick
Okay, but are the common minor scales (natural minor, dorian minor, harmonic minor) "diatonic" scales as you are using the term? The whole step/half step patterns of these scales is not the same as the do, re mi major scale.
Modes are a different system than major/minor, in the same way that schoenberg's 12 tone method is a different system. Just because modes can be explained and used in the context of the major/minor system...well it doesn't make modal music. Go find and take a class on counterpoint and rennaisance music and you'll start understanding. I really don't know anything about modes, other than that I know that I really don't have a clue. Being only in my second semester of theory I do hope to remedy that though, if only in the slightest.
I was only trying to clarify the correct meaning of of the term "diatonic," as it appears I may have been using that term of art somewhat incorrectly. However, in the larger cosmic scheme, I'm perfectly content to continue using modes as reference points for position selection like I have been doing without enrolling in any music history or composition courses. My understanding of music theory is limited to a practical working knowledge. But I think I have a pretty decent handle it to that extent.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 7:29 AM
2D POSITION, blues scale: D2/B3, D3* B4, D4*, D4, D5, B6 [D2 & B3 are the same note.] 2d position, minor pentatonic: D2/B3, D3*, B4. D4, D5, B6 NOTE: Playing the blues scale, the 3D* can be bent a quarter tone instead of a full half step for a "blue third." When playing the minor pentatonic scale, a full half step bend at 3D* is needed for a true minor third. 2d position, major pentatonic: D2/B3. D3**, D3, D4, B5, B6
3D POSITION, blues scale: D4, D5, B6, D6*, D6, B7, D8 [can't get a "blue third' because third is D5] 3d Position, minor pentatonic: D4, D5, B6, D6, B7, D8
4TH POSITION, minor pentatonic: D6, B7, D8, B8, B9, D10 4th position, blues scale: Add B8* to the above, but 4th is not a very "bluesy" position.
12TH POSITION, major pentatonic scale: D5, B6, D6, B7, D8, D9 NOTE: You can bend D6 to get the flat third for flavor/variety. When the major pentatonic scale is played with a flat third instead of a major third, some musicians refer to it as the "major blues scale".
As a practical matter, pentatonic scales are cool because they are very useful for improvising/soloing over a wide variety of material and they are relatively easy to learn on the harmonica. A player is better off learning to play scales than learning to play riffs. And, if you know scales, you can make up your own riffs.
SUGGESTION: Get a diagram of the notes available on the harmonica, look at the notes that are in these scales and figure out how and to what extent each of these scales can be extended above and below what I have tabbed out. Diagrams of Richter tuned harmonicas in all 12 keys are available on the Suzuki Harmonicas website
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 5:13 AM
You're not completely wrong. Modes are diatonic in the sense that they are buit on the notes of the diatonic scale, and, they are not chromatic.
However, even as early as c. 1825, when Beethoven used the dorian mode in his Missa Solemnis, modal music would've sounded strange to his listeners. Even by that time, it had become an obscure musical language.
I suppose my best, most overly simplistic and succinct explanation would be this:
modal music can be based on one of seven different modes;
diatonic/chromatic music is based on either a major or minor scale, the chords derived from that scale, and their closely related chords.
I think that Wally is saying more or less the same thing.
This discussion has made me realise the gaps in my knowledge of modality, so now I've got to do some reading! AARRGGHH! ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick a.k.a. HarmonicaMick
Let's say the band is playing in D minor and you've only got a C harp. You're gonna play in 3rd position, not because you want to use the dorian mode; rather, it's because those notes on your harp are the ones that will fit the easiest with the band.
The band couldn't care less about the dorian mode; they are simply playing in D minor and want you to do the same, by hook or by crook. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick a.k.a. HarmonicaMick
Mickil, Yes, or you can use the C harp to play over D major key blues because blues is a minor scale played over major chords. In either situation the C harp gives the player a mode that fits, whether the rest of the band thinks of it as a mode or not.
I just find thinking in terms of modes a useful way to keep track of which positions have which notes easily available. It helps me select the right harp to use. But, that's not saying it's the best, or the only, way to do it.
I suppose I'm think about a minor blues like Stormy Monday.
Just one thing I flat out disagree with what you just said: the blues is a minor and / or major scale played over major chords.
Piano players - well, me - will play both 3rds simultaneously then quickly let go of the minor 3rd. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick a.k.a. HarmonicaMick
Yes, of course. I was over simplifying. In major key blues, the third can be played major, minor, somewhere in between (blue third) or even more than a half step flat. And, yes, since you can't bend notes on the piano, i have seen keyboard players do what you are describing or hit the minor 3rd first and quickly slide off to the major third. I played with an older black blues player who was originally from the deep South (U.S.) who did that all the time. I am in complete agreement with what you are saying.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 7:33 AM
Modes don't always sound funny. Old Joe Clark is in Mixolydian, so are may folk tunes that don't sound funny. Modes are not black magic. There is another useful way of thinking about modes.
Major scale: the model Dorian = natural minor with a sharp 6 Phrygian = natural minor scale with a flat 2 Lydian = major scale with a sharp 4 mixolydian = major scale with a flat 7 Aolean = natural minor Locrian = natural minor with a flat 2 and flat 5
I find this way makes it easier to think of modes. Trying to track back to the related major key is simply too much work for me.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 6:41 AM
Yep. That's pretty much how I think about modes, too. Also, keep in mind that the mixolydian scale/mode will often work playing blues. B.B. King uses it from time to time. It's also very useful for playing blues on a harmonica in the upper register in second position w/o using blow bends. Sugar Blue often plays mixolydian on the upper register in second position.
This is one example of playing major key blues w/o flatting the third, like mickil was talking about.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 7:34 AM
Just out of curiosity, are any of you finding the tab helpful? Have any of you began to explore the relationships among the common breath patterns for these pentatonic scales in different positions?
Not to sound too pedagogical about it, but this stuff is good material for structured practice.
Everything mentioned in this thread is helpful. Thanks!
I haven't had the time to do some practicing with it, because I have to study for my exams now, but I will DEFINITELY try everything when I have some spare time.
Don't make it more difficult than it has to be. Just learn the breath patterns and the notes will take care of themselves. Follow the tab visually if you have to. Practice=repetition+discipline.
Any musician who is able to play an instrument proficiently has spent time and effort learning scales. Start slowly if you have to and play the scales up and down. Be sure to get all the bends in the proper order (which means hitting notes bent when required and being able to take a draw bend directly out to a blow note without releasing the bend when necessary). This may be awkward at first, but if you keep at it muscle memory will eventually take over and you will surprise yourself. For the time being, don't worry about which note is which. Just learn to keep your place on the harp in order to play the breath patterns accurately up and down. Do this over and over, up and down, until you are able to do it automatically.
Btw, once you learn scales, then you can start to understand the relationships between scale tones and chord tones which will ultimately put a lot of things into perspective. But for now, just practice the breath patterns. As you do, try to listen to how each scale is supposed to SOUND. Don't be afraid to go slow at first, but keep doing it. Your speed will pick up eventually as muscle memory takes over.
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2009 9:52 PM
