joe
2 posts
Jul 31, 2013
4:30 AM
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i've been watching and listening for a while
and thought it time to say g'day
... well, yeah, i know it's not the Blues
but it is sorta
regards
joe
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Last Edited by joe on Jul 31, 2013 4:40 AM
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ridge
450 posts
Jul 31, 2013
4:46 AM
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G'day joe.
I'm a bit confused about the numbering system here... are they supposed to indicate which hole you're playing on? If it is, it appears to be way off.
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SteamrollinStan
25 posts
Jul 31, 2013
5:01 AM
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This is why i would rather try and learn Chinese, the notes might make sense to some, but to me its WTF!!!
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tookatooka
3417 posts
Jul 31, 2013
5:07 AM
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Eh?
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joe
3 posts
Jul 31, 2013
5:21 AM
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use your C harmonica
out breath hole 4 is 1
play the C scale
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
these are scale note numbers [scale degrees]
which are just part of musical language
1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1
just like when you work out a tune by ear
except now it's written down
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Grey Owl
222 posts
Jul 31, 2013
5:52 AM
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Love this old spiritual Joe. Just had a bash with a C harp starting +2+3+3+2-1+1-1+2+3+2-1. Low octave, not sure what position.
LINK
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Jul 31, 2013 6:42 AM
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Kingley
2948 posts
Jul 31, 2013
6:17 AM
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Grey Owl - Thank you. That reminded me I need to go and buy some Hovis! :)
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Grey Owl
224 posts
Jul 31, 2013
6:35 AM
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Kingley :) I knew in the back of my mind it was called Goin' Home but still had to ask my wife 'what's the name of the song used in the Hovis bread advert' :)
My Firefox browser wouldn't display the Quicktime player (don't know if this is just a quicktime issue). Here is the link anywho LINK
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Jul 31, 2013 6:43 AM
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KingoBad
1363 posts
Jul 31, 2013
8:44 AM
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Joe,
First, welcome!!!
Second - that is a horrible system. When you need to decode your tab by playing scale degrees in first position, that is a little nuts. Learning scale degrees is wonderful, but you at least need to write the rules of your tab. There are many who use tabs, and almost universally refer to the number of the hole on the harp. You might send a number of people into a tizzy.
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Danny
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lumpy wafflesquirt
731 posts
Jul 31, 2013
10:11 AM
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Its the second movement from Dvorak's New world symphony
the Largo, originally in Db major. written in 1893
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Dvo%C5%99%C3%A1k) refers.
so modern blues is actually classical music :^)
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joe
4 posts
Jul 31, 2013
12:59 PM
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@KingoBad
1. thanks very much
b. on the other hand, if we remove the annotations we are left with the music notation which is read almost universally by piano, guitar, flute, violin, etc. - and harmonica - from Mr Dvorak's score, if one is so inclined
@lumpy wafflesquirt
i think it is interesting how Dvorak's romantic view of 'native American music' and the Carnegie Hall of 1893 collide with the Jim Crow south as portrayed in the Blues Talks by AG
regards
joe
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Last Edited by joe on Jul 31, 2013 2:38 PM
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Pistolcat
477 posts
Jul 31, 2013
1:57 PM
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I like annotation in scaledegrees. That way one can choose position easier and take it from there. There are no fourths and only a few sevenths. It hints to major pentatonics. One could play in first, second or twelfth I guess, even though you would need to overblow the five hole in second for that major seventh(or take it up an octave and bend the nine blow).
I'm just assuming here as I have no harps at hand...
Thanks and welcome Joe!
Ps. I may be confused about nomenclature here since I wouldn't call it a major seventh in Swedish/Latin. Well, someone can correct me. I'm tipsy :)
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joe
5 posts
Jul 31, 2013
2:32 PM
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thanks Pistolcat
the point is that after a while you will not need scale degrees or note names, you will read the music notation directly
as you say, it is very easy to see and decide where to place the notes on the harmonica from the music notation
in this next example, the scale degrees, although not strictly correct reflect what we actual DO on the harmonica
so now, we take the next step and read note names
again, it is easy to see where to place notes on the harmonica when we read through the music notation and with a printed copy we could add our own marks for performance
a big consequence of our music reading is that we are also training our ears - after a while we can hear the notes in our heads as we read through the song
of course, once we have our playing sorted we can put the written music away and just play the song as we would like
joe
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Last Edited by joe on Jul 31, 2013 2:43 PM
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STME58
514 posts
Jul 31, 2013
11:48 PM
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One of my favorite melodies Goin Home, or the Hiawatha theme from the New World Symphony.
I appreciate your courage for presenting standard music notation here. I recently led a group and added the 8 bar melody in music notation above the words to the verses and was chastised for confusing the banjo player ;-).
One thing about music notation, once you know your key signatures picking the right harp is easy. the first piece has no sharps of flats in the signature and no accidentals so I know all the notes are on a C harp. It might me in major, minor, Dorian etc., but all the notes will be on my C harp.
The second piece has one sharp in the key signature and no accidentals, without knowing anything else about the piece I know I can play it on a G harp. The G harp is the one with only and F sharp, just like the key signature. this piece looks to me to be in Dorian because is starts and ends on A, not G, but it has the same notes as a G harp. I can of course use other harps but I will have to find some notes that are not standard on the harp.
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joe
6 posts
Aug 01, 2013
2:24 AM
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thanks STME58
and spot on
what would you do with this?
regards
joe
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Last Edited by joe on Aug 01, 2013 2:25 AM
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Pistolcat
478 posts
Aug 01, 2013
7:08 AM
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Me, me! The one fixed b (Bb) means that one should go counterclockwise in the circle o fifths. From C to F. Also known as twelfth position to C. A F harp would service then. BUT as the song ends on a D one would think its in D which is fourth position on a F harp. Aeolian or natural minor. One could play it in third on a C harp if you can OB the six hole.
Still just guessing as I have no harp here...
Let me ask you, Joe. Where are you coming from? And I don't mean geographically. Are you on a mission to teach the heathen harpists read music ? :)
I like it! There has been a bit of decline in theory department since hvyj left.
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STME58
515 posts
Aug 01, 2013
8:46 AM
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I am in the "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" situation but I will take a stab at it. I agree with Pistolcat about the F harp. One flat and no accidentals, so all the notes are in the F harp. However, there are no Bbs in the excerpt, so this could be played on C harp with no OB.
The first 8 bars look to be in C major and consisting of the I II IV V and octave. The last 4 bars are a puzzle, I note the lack of a double bar at the end and wonder if it resolves in the next 4 bars. The last 4 bars could be understood in D minor, relative to the F of the key signature and a hole step from the C major of the first 8 bars. I'll have to get to an instrument to play it and see if it feels resolved on the D or not.
Last Edited by STME58 on Aug 01, 2013 8:56 AM
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lumpy wafflesquirt
732 posts
Aug 01, 2013
10:45 AM
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sky boat song. I worked it our by whistling, but where is the rest of it?
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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
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nacoran
6992 posts
Aug 01, 2013
11:09 AM
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How about a 'Movable Do' system? Instead of treble or bass clef you make an annotation that indicates the harmonica key and the lines and holes all become standardized for harp players. Maybe make the 2nd line the 4 blow? You could just write the key instead of using a key signature, since we've got a mostly diatonic instrument.
Sheet music does have a lot of versatility. The whole system with rhythm and ties is really precise and it is very useful for visualizing the general shapes and patterns of the music. (I know it can seem counterintuitive to 'visualize' music, but it's much easier, at least for me, to see repeating patterns in sheet music than in lists of numbers (but maybe that's just because I played in band and sang in choir).
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Nate
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STME58
516 posts
Aug 01, 2013
11:23 AM
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lumpy, I don't know the tune, but I agree with the idea that it is not all there. This tune would work as 4 bar phrases in A A B A. The A A and B are there and adding another 4 bar A would resolve it nicely as a tune in C major. The fact that it has no B notes allows the use of the F key signature without changing anything. If you take the Bb out of the key signature, not one note changes, and the key signature would agree with the key of the melody.
Joe, can you please turn to the back of the text and tell us the official answer? Or do we have to wait for next Sunday's paper (to mix a metaphor) :-)
Last Edited by STME58 on Aug 01, 2013 11:34 AM
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STME58
517 posts
Aug 01, 2013
11:29 AM
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Nate,
Could standard orchestral scoring be considered a "Movable Do" system? If I want a piece to sound in Eb, I write it in C for the Eb alto sax and in Eb for the C instruments. If I hand a Bb trumpet player a piece written in C, I will hear Bb when he plays it.
If I wrote a piece in C and specified that it was for F# harmonica. I would expect to hear the piece in F# when the F# harmonica player played it. Is this "Moveable Do"?
Last Edited by STME58 on Aug 01, 2013 11:35 AM
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Grey Owl
225 posts
Aug 01, 2013
12:53 PM
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This is an interesting one. I'm no good at theory but can read a little music. I would have trouble finding these notes on my harp just by looking at the music and this is a skill I would like to develop.
I had to play this on the tin whistle to discover the melody then play it on harp by ear.
Like the others, I note there is one flat (Bb) which I would reckon would mean the key of the song is F, although the relative minor key is D minor which also has one flat(Bb)Could it be that the chorus is F major and the verse D minor? It's also interesting that the Bb note doesn't appear in the song.
I have tried out 3 harp keys and they all work pretty well with no OB's required playing throughout the whole song.
F harp (1st postion?) +6-6+6+7,+7-8+8-8+9
Bb harp (2nd position?) -4+5-4+6, +6-6-7-6-8
C harp (12th position?) +4-4+4-5, -5+6-6+6+7
Be interested to know the answer and the theory.
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SuperBee
1339 posts
Aug 01, 2013
1:30 PM
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I'd just note the notes and figure which harp it lays best on. Much like the owl did
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Pistolcat
479 posts
Aug 01, 2013
1:30 PM
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@nate- Barrett use the 'movable do' he writes everything as would it be in C and then specifies the harp key seperately. Much as STME58 outlines.
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lumpy wafflesquirt
733 posts
Aug 01, 2013
2:22 PM
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I couldn't find it with one flat, but this shows it as one sharp but the chords show it ends on an Em chord
yes I know it's 4/4 rather than 6/8, but it's the same tune.
Last Edited by lumpy wafflesquirt on Aug 01, 2013 2:26 PM
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joe
7 posts
Aug 01, 2013
2:37 PM
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thanks everyone
no, i am not on a 'mission' but i do think that
music notation is a superior 'system' to tabs
i think it more likely that i am the heathen since
my road to the blues has been long and winding
the musical 'visualization' which music noation
allows us is one good reason and if we can learn
to hear the notes as we read them then we have a
'view' of the music before we play it -
whistling works and if you can whistle it you can
hum it which sends the nature of the music right down
to your toes
music notation is 'movable doh' - every time we
change key [signature] we change the doh
the first tune in this thread, athough written in
C, need not be played on a C harmonica - just choose
any and play - unless you have perfect pitch and that
puts your head in a spin
don't get muddled by 'transposing instruments' -
saxes, brass - even the guitar and the harmonica
are transposing instruments - the harmonica because
in my examples at least the music will sound up
an octave [on some harmonicas]
i have been indeed, slightly sneaky [does the Puss
in Boots big eyes thing] so here is the whole song
i like it on a C or a Bb [one for out breaths one
for in breaths] - on an F we would need to bend the
low D [last note, second line]
now what about the last note? before you play this
too many times hum the tune to yourself. on what note
do you end it?? i have heard the tune ending on different
notes.
of course, once we have the notes down, we can put them on
any harmonica to play with the band
thanks
joe
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Last Edited by joe on Aug 01, 2013 2:43 PM
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joe
8 posts
Aug 01, 2013
3:15 PM
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ah, uhm, er, what did you do to hvyj ?
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joe
9 posts
Aug 01, 2013
3:26 PM
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@lumpy wafflesquirt
yes, this answers my question perhaps [although you hadn't
seen the question]
your version shows that a return to the first 2 lines
is one way to perform the song
as it is it has that unresolved ending, at least G ending
in Em which probably lead to people going back to
the first 2 lines
it will be interesting to know if others have heard different endings
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Last Edited by joe on Aug 01, 2013 3:27 PM
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nacoran
6995 posts
Aug 01, 2013
3:27 PM
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STME58, yeah, that's one flavor of movable do. The old alto clef was often used that way. There is another style, called shape note, which uses different shaped note heads for do re mi etc., which might be adaptable too. Basically, to adapt any of them to harp you would just lay out the harps holes on the staff. For notes that could be played more than one way you could create a symbol, maybe a slash through the top of the note, to indicate a non-standard playing, for instance the 2d/3b could be indicated by putting a slash through the head of the note for a 3 blow.
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Nate
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Grey Owl
226 posts
Aug 01, 2013
3:52 PM
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@lumpy Yours is the version I am more familiar with. On guitar I wouldn't end playing the Em chord though but play a D chord on the last (D) note or maybe even a D7 chord for a kind of lilt before returning to the G on the chorus.
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nacoran
7004 posts
Aug 02, 2013
12:47 AM
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Pistolcat, I missed that. I'll have to check his system out! I've never transfered my baritone tuba or vocal sheet music reading skills to harp, except a little to write out rhythms.
Joe, technically, you are right that key signatures create a movable do, but movable do systems refer to a specific variation where the letter names of the lines and spaces change instead of the do re mi. This is useful for vocalists who are learning and singing songs at the same time (old timey church stuff like Sacred Harp Singing) and would work well for harp too. The idea is that instead of naming the lines and spaces after letters Ab, A, Bb, B etc. they would represent holes instead. You would pick a line or space and say, 'That's the 4 hole blow' or 'That's a 3 bend'. Then, since harps come in all the different keys, you just grab the right harp and you don't have to learn to transpose for different keys.
I know different instruments already sort of do this by being in a different key, but that just confuses things even more. I was at a jam with a trumpet player. The host called out one key for the guitar players, transposed it to second for me (this was a while back) and then called out another key for the trumpet player. I think maybe, from what I've read, the movable clef symbol disappeared because when people switched from hand drawn blank sheet music to printing press made blank sheet music it was easier to print things one way and then tell the musicians to transpose. With computer software it should be easier, especially for us 'grab a key' guys to read if the transposing is already done, otherwise we have to think which harp we have and how that translates in which hole being on which line for the key we are playing in. It hurts my head. :)
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Nate
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Pistolcat
481 posts
Aug 02, 2013
9:58 AM
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Hi Nate, here's a link to one of Barrett's notations. This is for a Bb-harp. The notation is for a C instrument. The tabs are below...
http://www.bluesharmonica.com/sites/bluesharmonica.com/files/easy_walter_horton.pdf
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STME58
519 posts
Aug 02, 2013
2:58 PM
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Joe,
Thanks for starting an interesting discussion.
You mentioned that you have heard this song ending on different notes. I wonder if that is because the key is ambiguous and it can be shifted easily. It contains no Bb, B, Eb,or E so it could be in C,F or Bb. It does contain an F so that takes the key of G out of the running. As written it is clearly in F both because of the key signature and the ending "home" note. I don't think it would take too many not changes to make C or Bb feel like "home" though. I realize this is an oversimplification but I think it applies here.
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STME58
520 posts
Aug 02, 2013
3:16 PM
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Nate,
Your story of the band leader trying to do everybody's transposition for them sounds like a mess. When I watch my 12 year old son's wind ensemble rehearsals, the conductor uses the word "concert" in front of the note he wants to indicate everyone is to transpose as needed. If he calls for a concert C to tune on, everyone plays the same note. It can get confusing in a alto sax sectional if he asks for a C and does not say concert C, he may get an alto sax C (Eb) from some players and a concert C from others.
As to Alto Clef, that is a C clef. The C clef is a movable clef. You can place it anywhere on the staff and it points to middle C. It does not change "Do" but changes the position of middle C so you don't have to use so many ledger lines. As a trombonist, I run in to that bad boy and it cousin, Tenor clef occasionally. I say bad boy as I am not proficient in reading these clefs and it causes a bit of panic when I see it looming ahead on the page. If I were young enough to audition for the youth symphony with my son, my poor skills in Alto and Tenor clef would keep me out of the trombone section. Literacy in these clefs is required for trombonists!
Last Edited by STME58 on Aug 02, 2013 3:18 PM
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nacoran
7005 posts
Aug 02, 2013
3:38 PM
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STME58, yea, it was tough. It was more of a beginners jam.
Sacred Harp singing actually uses different shaped note heads for the do re me's in the scale, and other than that, if I remember correctly, is written out in the alto clef. At least the way the tradition is carried out now, the four sections stand in a square, one to each side, facing inward. Different people get up and lead the group during the course of a sing, and the leader usually sings 'do' on a couple different notes to see where the choirs vocal range is, and once everyone agrees on that, the song starts. It's kind of like the Bobby McFerrin video where he is bouncing on stage and getting the audience to sing different intervals.
I figured if instead of calling it a specific letter you said it was say, the 4 blow, that you could use it pretty well for harp. Like harp tab, it would be easy to transpose- you just grab a different harp- but it would have the added benefits of the extra things sheet music can tell you.
Pistolcat, the only thing confusing about the Barrett system is, from what I can see from that example, it still uses the traditional treble clef sign, where most of the movable do stuff I've seen uses the movable clef like in STME58's example.
Here is the Bobby McFerrin example of scale degrees:
And for those of you interested in hearing what Shape Note sounds like, here are a couple examples of that:
Idumea
(embedding disabled, from the Cold Mountain soundtrack, but worth checking out)
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Nate
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Last Edited by nacoran on Aug 02, 2013 3:40 PM
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joe
23 posts
Aug 02, 2013
4:08 PM
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i would not say that it is unusual for band leaders to
call keys and transpositions - the band leader is in a position to know them all anyway
both Mr Barrett and Mr Weiser have wonderful collections of music notation.
Mr Weiser notates in key however and so exposes us to a range of keys
and music reading which is good for our aural training as musos and our appreciation
of the 'flavour' of different keys
http://www.celticguitarmusic.com/bluergrass1.htm
the tenor clef can be read as treble clef + Bb transposing, which it often is in brass band music
- well in older brass band work anyway, hopefully they
have seen sense lately and use treble clef like all the other instruments
the alto clef ain't so helpful
joe
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Last Edited by joe on Aug 02, 2013 4:31 PM
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joe
25 posts
Aug 02, 2013
7:31 PM
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what glorious singing!
but is not all this the same as saying, as Bobby McFerrin does, okay
hummm
this is our starting note [our doh]
lets sing the song
??
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nacoran
7006 posts
Aug 02, 2013
7:39 PM
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The sacred harp sheet music never denotes a prefered key. It's actually very similar to what McFerrin is doing with the pentatonic scale.
I don't know what the timeline overlap is, but I know different keys used to have slightly different distances between the notes in each key. Eventually that was standardized. The ratios for Bb and B are the same, for instance. Even Just and Compromise tunings are 'standardized' from key to key. The notes within a key may be off from Equal Temperament, but each key harp is off the same way.
The Wolf at Our Heels
The centuries-old struggle to play in tune.
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Nate
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