undertheradar
44 posts
Aug 29, 2013
8:06 AM
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I am confused. Lets use Am for example. I know from what Ive read that the Key of C is the relative Major of Am because they share the same scale, just the root note is shifted and the scale starts on the A. Wouldnt it be best to play Am on a D harp? I "THINK" I have made a mountain out of a mole hill. Isnt the difference in 2nd position playing in the Key A and the Key of Am to either bend or not to bend the 3 hole. Am I in the ballpark. I hardly ever play to minor songs but some of the jams I attend they are playing Tom Petty stuff and its not my cup of tea and I instinctively cringe when someone shout out a minor key. So cant I stay with the same harp on cross harp whether its A or Am ?? Please shed some light, this is giving me a headache!
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Rick Davis
2289 posts
Aug 29, 2013
8:10 AM
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I usually play minor key songs in 2nd position - cross harp. I would use a D harp for an Am song.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Aug 29, 2013 8:10 AM
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JInx
507 posts
Aug 29, 2013
8:33 AM
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It depends on what how you want to sound. With a standard diatonic harp, you can easily access 4 different minor scales/modes. Each has different sound. For example, If you want to get some of the sounds used by The Doors, using your D harp play play your blues in F#.
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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1847
1021 posts
Aug 29, 2013
8:50 AM
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on a D harp 8 blow is an f#
you want to stay away for that note
easier said than done.
use 9 draw instead
try using a F harp
Am is relative to C major
you would use a F harmonica in the key of C
so it works well in Am
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
Last Edited by 1847 on Aug 29, 2013 8:51 AM
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JInx
508 posts
Aug 29, 2013
9:01 AM
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F# would be the tonic, you can play it all day long
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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1847
1022 posts
Aug 29, 2013
9:13 AM
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a minor has no sharps or flats
2 blow and 5 blow you would want to avoid as well
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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fred_gomez
175 posts
Aug 29, 2013
9:30 AM
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i use a G echo harp for A minor, and a C chrome for E minor.
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arzajac
1135 posts
Aug 29, 2013
10:15 AM
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Undertheradar: There's more to playing in a minor key than bending the 3 draw. For example, what about the upper octaves?
A minor-tuned harp allows you to play the riffs you are used to playing in first and second position on a regular harp in a minor scale. Played on a standard-tuned harp, they are in a major scale.
Minor-tuned harps aside, yes, you can play various other positions easily on a standard-tuned harp. Each major scale has a relative minor. So if you learn the major scale, you can play in the minor scale just by adjusting which note you use as the root - you don't have to learn another breath pattern.
This is not as easy as it sounds, but having the breath pattern in your mind does help a lot.
Here are the six scales you can easily play without overbends on a regular-tuned harp. I am referring to Pentatonic scales, either major or minor. This just shows holes 4, 5 and 6 only... But all the root notes are there, unbent.
(Each color represents a breath pattern. Capital letters indicate major and lowercase indicate minor)
The breath pattern for first and fourth position is as follows:
Second and fifth:
Third and twelfth:
Some riffs work out really well in certain positions but are not possible in others. That's the fun and uniqueness of playing different positions.
What a great instrument!
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Aug 29, 2013 10:18 AM
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JInx
509 posts
Aug 29, 2013
10:33 AM
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For another interesting minor sound from your D harp, play your blues in the key of Db. You'll get easy access the b5 interval, gives you that BB King "Thrill Is Gone" sound everyone knows and loves.
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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mr_so&so
726 posts
Aug 29, 2013
10:41 AM
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UTR, the answer to which position to use for a minor tune, depends on which minor scale you need. It is certainly doable to play minor pentatonic in second position if you bend accurately to the minor third, e.g.3d half step bend. It will sound off if you get that wrong.
If your goal is to accompany, you will be playing chord and scale tones, and you will need to know what those are. Once you do, use the position that works best for you, e.g., these positions give you access to the following modes of the major scale without much bending, so for the minor modes that can be especially helpful.
First position = Ionian mode (the major scale)
Second position = Mixolydian mode (maj. scale with flat 7th, a.k.a. b7)
Third position = Dorian mode (b3, b7;"minor")
Fourth position = Aeolian mode (b3, b6, b7; also "minor")
Fifth position = Phrygian mode (b2, b3, b6, b7; "minor")
Sixth position = Locrian mode (b2, b3, b5, b6, b7; "minor")
Twelfth position = Lydian mode (#4; "major")
Edit: arzajac's advice is also excellent. You can play a lot of music and fit in to most minor tunes by playing minor pentatonic in 3rd, 4th, 5th, and of course, 2nd, if you are used to the bends and overbends required. This is a better solution for playing along to songs you may not know well, in a jam situation.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Aug 29, 2013 10:59 AM
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nacoran
7072 posts
Aug 29, 2013
12:48 PM
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Don't look at me. I grab a minor tuned harp!
(Or I play in 3rd or 5th). For lots of tunes I like the chords a minor tuned harp gives me. There are some songs that just lay out beautifully on a minor harp- Summertime, St. James Infirmary...
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Nate
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undertheradar
45 posts
Aug 29, 2013
12:53 PM
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arzajac has confused me even more. Why wouldnt the 4 hole blow be incorporated in the cross harp breath pattern?
Im gonna have to re read all of this as I am hard to teach lol
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1847
1024 posts
Aug 29, 2013
1:10 PM
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heck i,m getting confused after all of this lol
arzjac is showing a major scale in 2nd
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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mr_so&so
727 posts
Aug 29, 2013
1:11 PM
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UTR, because the 2nd position pattern arzajac shows above is the major, not minor, pentatonic, and that does not include the 4b (the fourth). It's 1,2,3,5,6, in scale degrees. Blues folks are used to playing a blues scale in 2nd, which is the minor pentatonic with an extra flat 5. It's harder to play than the major pentatonic in 2nd, because it requires more bends, and overbends in the upper octaves.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Aug 29, 2013 1:15 PM
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undertheradar
46 posts
Aug 29, 2013
1:15 PM
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ugh... I think I should just buy some natural minor harps and play them until it comes too me {bang head}
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1847
1025 posts
Aug 29, 2013
1:19 PM
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its ok to play the 4 blow
do not play the 5 blow use 5 draw instead
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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arzajac
1136 posts
Aug 29, 2013
5:41 PM
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Undertheradar: You'd be amazed at how much mileage you can get out of the pentatonic scales.
Why not do both? Pick up a minor harp and play in second. Then, play the same thing (or equivalent) in third, fifth and fourth positions on regular harps.
And the blues scale is just one extra note added to the minor pentatonic... So your familiar melodies are right there already...
Also another example; I think Jason Ricci has recently started playing lots of major pentatonic with a lot of emphasis on rhythm and getting away from playing the straight blues scale.
Anyway, something to think about. Not to mention doing scales is a great way to warm up.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Aug 29, 2013 5:42 PM
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1847
1026 posts
Aug 29, 2013
8:24 PM
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why is it... you're playing your best stuff
then the red record light comes on
and you hit all the wrong notes lol
i left them in here so you can hear what i am talking about
ok i left them in here cause... i cant hit the right ones rotfl
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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JInx
510 posts
Aug 30, 2013
2:46 AM
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um, cause you suck? just kidding
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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Jim Rumbaugh
909 posts
Aug 30, 2013
5:16 AM
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undertheradar asked,"So cant I stay with the same harp on cross harp whether its A or Am ??"
simple answer : yes, on your minor tunes you should bend 3 draw 1/2 step down. play holes 1 through 6.
undertheradar said, " they are playing Tom Petty stuff "
At our club we love "Last Dance with Mary Jane". If you want to have fun and easy blowing on this tune, you GOTTA try 3rd position. We play it in Aminor, we grab a G harp. Just play holes 4,5,& 6 and have fun. Worry about other holes later, after you play those 3 for a while
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@azarjac I absolutely LOVE your color chart explanations. Just wonderful.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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Aussiesucker
1316 posts
Aug 30, 2013
8:48 PM
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I also just grab a minor tuned harp. I also retune lots of my harps to major cross & not only get a great harp to play country & bluegrass in X harp but another option of playing minor (diminished) in 1st pos. Very underrated tuning but no good for blues.
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HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
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arzajac
1138 posts
Aug 30, 2013
9:26 PM
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Brandon Bailey was only packing a minor tuned harp for this interview.
At the 2:15 mark, the interviewer asks him to play the feeling of joy. You can see on his face he's thinking "why the **ck did I decide pack a minor harp today?"
Spoiler alert: He pulls it off....
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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mlefree
128 posts
Aug 31, 2013
9:12 AM
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Arzajac, it took me a little while studying your charts to realize how great they are! Together they comprise the most compact, informative way of illustrating what goes on with all these positions and major versus minor, etc. I've ever seen. I am printing out a copy as we speak.
Might I ask about its origin? Heck there might be more nuggets in that gold mine, wherever it is!
Thanks,
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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arzajac
1139 posts
Aug 31, 2013
5:11 PM
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Hi Michelle.
This stuff blew my mind when I first learned it.
HVYJ, a former forum contributor had posted the breath patterns of these six positions as plain text. I made charts to illustrate them. If you click on my profile, you can download a PDF with all the info.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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joe
83 posts
Sep 02, 2013
5:22 AM
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@undertheradar
the usual way of referring to relative major/minor is that they have
the same key signature.
so, A minor has the same key signature as C major - no sharps, no flats.
in practice this means that the relative minor is a third lower than the
major key - G major, E minor - B flat major, G minor
an important change is that minor keys have the 6th and 7th sharp to
the key signature.
so in A minor - blank key signature
a b c d e f# g# a g f e d c b a
is the melodic minor scale and
a b c d e f g# a g# f e d c b a
is the harmonic minor scale
i have a scale and chord approach to improvisation. i like to have the
chords of the song [a guitar part or a vocal lead with chords chart,
for example] so that i can base my improvisation on those,
the tune if i know it and the [minor] scale of the song.
of course that is not always possible and as you indicate, all that we
have is the key [minor] of the song.
now, we don't have a lot of time to think about it so we need a couple of
ways to decide upon a harmonica to use.
here are two ways to decide.
'okay- this next song is in A minor'
harmonica player thinks ...
A minor is relative to C major, so i can use a C harmonica for the song
or
A is hole 4 in, on a G harmonica, so i can use a G harmonica
the chord charts would be nice but being a humble harmonica player rather
than the guitarist or the vocalist we don't get them so we have to make do
of course these methods will need personal practice but having done our
practice we can feel more confident in being able to handle the minor key call.
of course, we need to know our key signatures, scales and breathing patterns
in the following, a x note head means that the note is needed for the scale
but not available to us
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UTC+10
Last Edited by joe on Sep 02, 2013 5:31 AM
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joe
84 posts
Sep 02, 2013
6:24 AM
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akshully .. .
this study in minor has pretty much persuaded
me for paddy richter
it gives us the lower 6th which is so useful
j.
UTC+10
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1847
1033 posts
Sep 02, 2013
10:48 AM
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Key of D harp
Blow D F# A D F# A D F# A D
Hole 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Draw E A C# E G B C# E G B
without any bent notes the blow plate
has three holes you do not want to use
the draw plate has 2 holes to avoid
so out of the the 20 available notes you have 15 that you
can use with impunity.
so just avoid those notes ...and yes you can use the 3 draw bend just do not release it.
hopefully this helps to simplify
i was getting confused there myself
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Lmbrjak
184 posts
Sep 04, 2013
1:44 PM
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@ 1847- Love your playing above but not sure what it illustrates. Perhaps if you revealed the key of the song and the harp key you used I would get it. I played along with a Bb,Ab,and Eb and liked all 3 but not as well as what you played. Looking at the circle of fifth's,my guess is the song is Gm but really...I don't know.
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1847
1044 posts
Sep 04, 2013
2:02 PM
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under the radar original post said lets use Am as an example... that that is the key center i used
i am going to erase that recording cause it is so pathetic and post something hopefully a little better
i posted this earlier
try using a F harp
Am is relative to C major
you would use a F harmonica in the key of C
so it works well in Am
the first part is an F harp
lots of blow notes it is almost the opposite of 3 rd position which is mostly draw notes
the 2n part i used a D harp
see above on which notes to avoid
do as i say not as i do lol
hope this helps
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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timeistight
1347 posts
Sep 04, 2013
2:09 PM
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There's a new Charlie McCoy interview on bluesharmonica.com where he talks about his approach to minor playing. He'd typically play A minor on an F harp. He thinks of that as the relative minor of 2nd position (rather than calling it 5th position).
Of course, Charlie often plays on country-tuned harps which replace the F-harp's 5 draw Bb with a B♮, making it much friendlier for A minor.
Last Edited by timeistight on Sep 04, 2013 2:13 PM
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1847
1045 posts
Sep 04, 2013
2:16 PM
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ok so i totally %$#^ up here
looks like i transposed something so sorry
the song is in C minor oops how messed up is that
ok try a Ab harmonica
then a F harp
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Lmbrjak
185 posts
Sep 04, 2013
3:58 PM
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Just so you know 1847,I learned a lot from your posts..thanks.
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1847
1046 posts
Sep 04, 2013
4:31 PM
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i'll re-do that in A minor
possibly tomorrow so for the confusion
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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cozendey
2 posts
Sep 13, 2013
12:13 PM
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Hi guys. Here´s a recording with a harmonicaboogie backtrack...hope you like it.
https://soundcloud.com/leonardo-cozendey-crespo/slow-song-dm
It´s a Dm song with a Bb harp on 5th position...That's the position I use for minor songs...
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colman
264 posts
Sep 13, 2013
2:55 PM
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If you are playing blues style stuff,you`re playing minor runs over major chords and minor runs over minor chord if that be the song.Simple,the blues scale is minor pentatonic with an flat5 added.
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groyster1
2380 posts
Sep 13, 2013
3:40 PM
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a minor key.....I play 3rd position......C minor...play a Bb third position....cross harp just does not sound right.....play an F harp in 2nd...sounds way off to me
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