mankycodpiece
62 posts
Jan 03, 2010
11:31 AM
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if you read the old black joe thread,you'll know i have always been interested in the native americans.
my question,
are you aware of the people that inhabited the land where you live in the days during,and before the "old west."
is the lives and histories of these people taught in school.
are you taught about the clovis people and the artifacts that have been found,like cutting tools.
are you taught about the colonisation of america by the europeans.
i see it's more that one question.
i don't have any romantic notion about native americans.they were just as good and bad as the rest of us.
i'm simply interested if you were taught about them.
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pharpo
50 posts
Jan 03, 2010
11:46 AM
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Manky;
I live very in the area where the Iroquois were. The Onondaga Nation ( part of the six nations ) were the group that lived here. They are still part of the community fabric. We were taught a little about them in school. One of the most "famous" of all Iroquois, "Hiawatha" spent time here and organized the local tribes coming together to form the "Six nations confederacy". Our Democratic form of government has some of it roots in the Iroquois form of government. They also invented the sport of Lacrosse. Schools in our area have the best lacrosse programs in the world!
Morris Tarbell - the guitar player on the audio file I posted yesterday, is from the Onondaga Nation.
Paul
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Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. - Charlie Parker
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Shredder
91 posts
Jan 03, 2010
11:51 AM
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In my humbel opinion, the native Americans were the ones that really got screwed. I do agree others were mistreated and used but government backed extermination among other things takes the cake.
Mike
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Elwood
272 posts
Jan 03, 2010
11:54 AM
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That's a pretty f***ing lousy competition to win.
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mankycodpiece
63 posts
Jan 03, 2010
11:57 AM
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pharpo,i remeber reading about the six nations ending the war with germany about 1960,or something like that.
they declared war on germany themselves,and never got around to declaring the peace until way after the war had finished.
marcelus,every country teaches it's children what they want them to hear.the UK is as bad as most in that regard.
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Shredder
92 posts
Jan 03, 2010
11:58 AM
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Maybe Elwood needs to get on the field. I think he will see it an't no panty waist sport.
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nacoran
664 posts
Jan 03, 2010
1:38 PM
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We got taught some in school. We went to the NYS Museum and saw the display of the Iroquois Long House. We learned some of the creations stories and such. We focused mostly on the groups in New York. It was even handed as far as what was presented was presented with both sides of the story, but by shear volume it got overwhelmed with the typical Western Civ. stuff.
There is a big Iroquois museum shaped like a longhouse an hour or so from my house. I went there for a festival they were having. I enjoyed the music, but the old fashioned corn bread tasted like rotted dog shit. It's too bad too, because when I saw they had cornbread I got all excited.
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Buzadero
241 posts
Jan 03, 2010
2:21 PM
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My wife of almost 25 years is exactly one half Navajo. In fact, she lived on the Reservation until she was almost ten years old. Like all races, you'll find Indians have their share of bitter ones, as well as those who have moved beyond living in the past and being consumed by stale and worn out bitterness. And, like all races, you have your assholes and your wonderful human beings.
In my life, my comprehension and practice of tolerance, acceptance and understanding can be directly attributed to wisdom bestowed upon me by being fortunate enough to have known my wife's great-uncle (a holy man and elder) as well as a former neighbor from my early years living full time in the South (a wise old black man who had seen and experienced some of the most evil that man can sink to).
So, no. I wasn't taught much about Indians in the setting of formal education. Nor are any American schoolchildren taught anything much more than Indians were some nice simple people that got exploited by the White Man. When there are many many more layers to the onion.
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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Hobostubs Ashlock
261 posts
Jan 03, 2010
2:45 PM
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Lol I live in Oklahoma
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Stickman
42 posts
Jan 03, 2010
3:10 PM
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Yes, Manky I am well aware of the Kecoughtan Indians who inhabited south eastern Virginia. They were a sub tribe of the Powhatan Indians the most famous of whom visited your county. Maybe you have heard of her.... Pocahontas? The indigenous peoples of our region and their contributions, both pre and post colonial era are taught in our schools. As far as I know (and I know quite a bit) clovis cultures are not covered in elementary schools in Virginia. As Jamestown and Colonial Williamsburg is less than twenty miles from here, colonization plays a big part in our schools curriculum. Some recent native american news in Virginia includes the presentation of a hunted deer to the state Governor (a tradition that goes back to colonial times), the opposition of building a reservoir by local tribes (the tribal groups won) and the College of William and Mary changing its mascot from "Tribe" (no decision has been made about a new mascot)
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The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2010 3:12 PM
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shanester
47 posts
Jan 03, 2010
3:24 PM
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Manky, from your posts is seems to me that you are trying to build some kind of case that one people had it worse than another and it is simply apples and oranges. The African American experience is distinct from the Native American experience. Who can judge something like that?
It seems a little presumptuous to think, that because you have read a lot about the subject, you would somehow have greater insight into it than people who actually live it. It would be presumptuous for me to think that I knew more about the IRA than someone whose life has been touched by it.
You should come to the US and check it out, Memphis, New Orleans, Pine Ridge, Talequah, and many, many more. You will be pleased to find there is an abundance of information available beyond your wildest dreams, as well as the peoples in question, which you could interview yourself!
Have you ever been to the Deep South or Pine Ridge? Maybe its time to check it out
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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rbeetsme
100 posts
Jan 03, 2010
3:33 PM
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I live in Indiana, must have been people here before the settlers, but I don't remember ever reading about them in school. I know there are some mounds up north. I agree with the above statement, they were no better or worse than the settlers. Greed, jealousy, hatred, compassion, sacrifice and creativity is not exclusive to any one people group.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
264 posts
Jan 03, 2010
3:33 PM
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hey i live 15 min.away from Talequah as a matter of fact my 1st gig was in Talequah.Its the Cherokee nation
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shanester
48 posts
Jan 03, 2010
3:40 PM
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...or maybe it's that the white people here are meaner than there, i don't know. My point is there is a place where words fail to communicate. There is no replacement for experience. The US is a huge place, you will find many answers depending on where people live and who they are.
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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shanester
49 posts
Jan 03, 2010
3:40 PM
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My Grandma is in Wagoner, hobostubs!
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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MrVerylongusername
749 posts
Jan 03, 2010
3:47 PM
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I don't know of any Native Americans here in Nottingham...
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shanester
50 posts
Jan 03, 2010
3:57 PM
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Grandma lives near the lake. My cousin, Michael Shane lives in town and works for the city. Lets communicate via youtube and maybe we could jam sometime when I'm up if your interested!
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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Hobostubs Ashlock
268 posts
Jan 03, 2010
4:02 PM
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sure
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shanester
51 posts
Jan 03, 2010
4:15 PM
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Hendrix was part Cherokee
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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gene
336 posts
Jan 03, 2010
4:41 PM
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This forum, lately, has been cluttered with too many threads that have nothing to do with harp. Therefore I did not want to start a new thread just to post this side topic.
________________________
I do not like the term "Native American." I feel like it's a slap in the face to me and to many of us. I am Scotch, Dutch, Irish, English and I'm 1/2 Italian. I only think of myself as American. I was born here. This is the only country I've ever lived in. This is my home. I'm native to America. That makes me a native American. I have no control over what happened several generations ago.
There are other terms that can be used. Amerindian, Indigenous Americans, etc.
BTW:
Even the Indigenous Americans migrated to America from some time in the past.
(So as not to cloud my point, I omitted the fact that I also have some Amerindian in my blood.)
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2010 7:24 PM
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toddlgreene
328 posts
Jan 03, 2010
5:49 PM
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I'm a cross of Choctaw and Irish on one side, and Iroquois and Scot on the other...you'd think I drank more.
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~Todd L. Greene
crescentcityharmonicaclub@gmail.com
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kudzurunner
907 posts
Jan 03, 2010
6:45 PM
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One thing I've always found remarkable is the number of American place names--very "American" sounding place names--that are, in fact, Indian words or the names of Indian tribes. Start with the states (off the top of my head):
Alabama
Alaska
Connecticut
Delaware
Ohio
Illinois
Wisconsin
Mississippi
Wyoming
Indiana (sorta)
Michigan
Iowa
Massachusetts
Plus all the New Joisy places:
Ramapo
Piscataway
Hoboken
Hohokus (I think)
Matawan
etc.
Lots more where they came from. Linguistically speaking, the native peoples won the war. Hooch, Yankee.....all Indian words.
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jonsparrow
1570 posts
Jan 03, 2010
6:54 PM
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i allways thought yankee was a southern word for people from the north.
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mankycodpiece
64 posts
Jan 04, 2010
6:53 AM
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thanks for all your responses.i take it there isn't much formal teaching in school then.
shanester,i expected a response like yours from a few people,fortunately,yours is the only one.having re-read this piece,it looks as if i'm anoyed.not at all.
there was no ulterior motive in my posting this thread.you either believe me,or you don't.it's as simple as that.i wouldn't want to influence you.
i've been over to the states many times and spoken with native americans.we have an ojibwe in our broader family that live in hamilton near toronto.
this site gave me a chance to ask a number of people a few simple questions.there have been other topics that are not harp related.so why not this one?
i've visited many sites including the so called battle sites.
finaly,i made no distinction between one peoples pain and another.that was the whole point of my post on the old black joe thread.pain is pain,be it native americans,slaves or the jews gassed in the chambers.it's all the same to me.
i call them native americans because the majority of them that i have spoken to prefered that.lets face it,indians is a misnomer they didn't ask for.
if this board is to be harp or music related only,i'm happy to go with that.
i thought pocahontas was buied in london.there is someone of note buried here.someone will know.
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toddlgreene
332 posts
Jan 04, 2010
6:57 AM
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@ jon-My dad taught me that anyone who lived north of I-10 was a 'yankee'...
a joke, of course.
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~Todd L. Greene
crescentcityharmonicaclub@gmail.com
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2010 7:25 AM
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OzarkRich
65 posts
Jan 04, 2010
7:48 AM
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I attended Kickapoo elementary, Cherokee jr high, and after the elementary had a name change (to Walt Disney!), Kickapoo high school. My brother is a full blooded Alaskan indian of the Tlingit tribe (pronounced "klinkit"). My aunt worked at a children's home in Juneau, Alaska and we adopted my brother from there when he was ten.
To answer your question no I wasn't taught more than the basics in school; most of my knowledge is from family and cultural connections.
While I agree this is a blues harp forum, we're also to some extent a community so the occasional side issue is fine as it helps us to connect more (for both better and, at times, worse).
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Chinn
23 posts
Jan 04, 2010
8:09 AM
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I live in the Memphis TN area, which is the area of the Chickasaw Indians.
We learned some about the people of this and other groups during school, but it was limited. Then again, we learned basically nothing about WWI, WWII, Vietnam, the Korean war, or anything before the settling of America by Europeans. I guess my point is that my experience with American schools is that they don't teach a lot of history (my wife, mother and grandmother were/are all teachers).
Personally, I learned a lot more through my own family (have some Cherokee in my family tree) and through my own interest.
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nacoran
679 posts
Jan 04, 2010
1:30 PM
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I actually nearly got beat up once because of American History. My friend had missed class the day before, and when he ran into me in the locker room before gym class he asked me what he'd missed. We'd gone over some of the creation stories, so I explained those to him. Unfortunately, the creation story of one group (Iroquois I think), involves the creator creating the people of the Earth from baked clay. The White Man was under baked, the Black man was over baked and the Iroquois man was baked just right. Unfortunately, a couple of big black gentlemen (8th graders I think) the next isle over heard about half of what I heard. They came around to have a talk with me. I had to explain myself quickly, standing there in my underwear. I was pretty panicked for a minute or two, standing there in my underwear. I guess I managed to explain enough so they figured out what I was talking about and they didn't shove me into a locker.
(It's a good thing I was just a kid. I didn't have much of a life to flash before my eyes yet. Nothing is quite as scary as being accosted in your underwear.)
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pharpo
54 posts
Jan 04, 2010
1:56 PM
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We have a native american Harp player here in central new york...his name is Curtis Waterman and he can lay it down........There it's on topic ok ?
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Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. - Charlie Parker
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GermanHarpist
853 posts
Jan 04, 2010
3:55 PM
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A friend told me today that "squaw" (as we all know it from the movies) is one of the worst insults for a native american woman. Can you imagine...
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germanharpist on YT. =;-)
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robbo
14 posts
Jan 04, 2010
5:01 PM
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I live in england and did history GCSE (high school diploma), the majority of witch was based around the native americans and bugger all about British history. You gotta give it to the US government for realising that by targeting the buffalo they did more damage to the native americans in 2 years than the us army did in 30 yrs. Bad ofcourse
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2010 5:09 PM
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nacoran
683 posts
Jan 04, 2010
7:22 PM
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Robbo- It wasn't too good for the buffalo either! (Sorry, just trying to lighten up the mood.)
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robbo
17 posts
Jan 05, 2010
5:18 AM
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lol
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rbeetsme
104 posts
Jan 05, 2010
6:29 AM
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I'm glad they left the wings alone.
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mankycodpiece
72 posts
Jan 05, 2010
6:54 AM
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my thanks to all of you that responded.
i'd like to make one more visit before my time is up.
it's been around 17 years since i was over there.in all,i've done 9 visits varying in length from one month to 10 weeks.
i've had this interest in the native americans since i was a kid.my granfather had an interest in them,which he passed on to me.he had lots of old clippings from newspapers about the events going on in america with the indians.
like every other kid,i used to go to the cinema and watch the cowboys and indian films.what i was seeing on the screen didn't corespond with what i read in the clippings.
folks this side of the pond think in terms of"the indians"as a whole.as most of you americans will know,there were hundreds of different tribes and languages,with different bands within the tribe.i'm getting a bit carried away here.
i went to sand creek and wounded knee and some other sites,like the villages in the mesa verde national park.
i read on here someone say they lived in cochise county.i almost fell of my chair with interest.
by the way,i'm told,pocahontas is buried in gravesend in kent in england.she died aged 22.
we had wyatt earp on the tv last night.earp is a name that originates in walsall england which is just up the road from me.there are 14 listings for earps in the telephone book.
i've waffled on a bit,but thank to you all.
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2010 6:57 AM
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LIP RIPPER
161 posts
Jan 05, 2010
10:59 AM
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I guess i'm a native amereican since I was born and live here. I grew up in southern Indiana in the White River vally. I used to hunt indian artifacts as a hobby. The stone age was very interesting. I was able to find artifacts from every human culture known to exist from Paleo to the missippian era. all in the same places. Paleo the earlist of mankind was over 12,000 BC and the last of the stone age was only 4 to 500 years ago. Don't quote me on the time frames, I haven't studied this in decades but it fasinated me that humans from the earliest of time to present inhabited the same ground. we are certainly creatures of habit.
P.S. Funny thing is that some of the best stone work was the oldest stuff. sound familiar?
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2010 11:00 AM
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shanester
69 posts
Jan 18, 2010
7:49 PM
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Hey Manky, sorry to dredge this up but I just wanted acknowledge that I misinterpreted where you were coming from early on in this thread and apologize. The day I posted I had a chip on my shoulder that was just my response to stress in my own life. I appreciate your interest in Native American (or Ind'n as a lot Lakota Sioux folks at the pow-wows say).
Like you, I grew up fascinated by it and sucked up everything I found. I spent my summers with my grandmother near Talequah and saw the "Trail of Tears" play put on by the Cherokee there every year. The woman I married put on a benefit for Wounded Knee before we met that ultimately brought a very successful annual pow wow to Austin that continues to this day. I have even gotten to meet John Trudell, and he gave me permission to videotape an awesome musical performance with his band! I had a lot of contact with this kind of info all my life but acknowledge that that is not a mainstream experience across the board in the US.
Sorry for the soccer (football)riot-like home team mania with which I responded. I'm not always an asshole, in fact usually not.
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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