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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Building structure into improvisation
Building structure into improvisation
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phogi
179 posts
Jan 14, 2010
8:35 AM
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Lets talk.
You go first.
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bluemoose
107 posts
Jan 14, 2010
9:16 AM
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Dave Barrett's masterclass spends a lot of time talking about this. Here's a link to an outline of his book on Improvising Blues Harmonica. The subject titles give a good summary of what's involved.
http://www.harmonicamasterclass.com/improvising.htm
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2010 9:16 AM
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Honkin On Bobo
172 posts
Jan 14, 2010
10:15 AM
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Speaking of Barrett's mastercless series, has anyone bought any of his books/CDs/DVDs? And have they been worth the money? Not to hi-jack the thread or anything. ;-)
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waltertore
98 posts
Jan 14, 2010
10:25 AM
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All my words and music are spontaneously created. I call it spontobeat. The secret to improvising is very simple. One simply has to let go of all worldly concerns and let the stuff in your soul out. If you are thinking, you are not improvising. We are born with this gift and through the years of being told we are wrong, bad, inferior, lazy, etc, we lose it and become technical masters that can't hardly live a waking moment on earth without thought. Now when you read this, you might say- you can't improvise till you master an instrument. That is the negative juice talking. Anyone can improvise at any point. Look at little kids play. They improvise all day. We can learn a lot from them. Don't let the rules man has made influence your joy. So, simply let go of thoughts and let your creative juices flow without interuption from the world. I record about 300 full length cds a year via this method. The well never runs dry. In fact, it is the opposite. I can never catch all the songs that are passing by me in a day.
here is something I wrote about how I do music.
I swear if one just plays to have fun, learning new instruments isn't hard at all because there is just joy involved. No matter how bad I might sound throughout my playing days due to blindly jumping onto new instruments, beats, genres, I felt wonderful. Joyful noise is a real thing! I also would venture to say that I have put in at least 20 hours a week having fun with music and not a minute on trying to learn something from a book or video. What is that about 3,000 hours a year. Times that by almost 50 years and what is that 150,000 hours(math in my head is not so good). To break this down furhter I can say that when I play I hear a whole band in my head. Let it be solo guitar, or one man band. Even with the one man band I hear a real band playing in my head. This may be classified as fantasy, but it actually works in learning the instruments you hear. I know this goes contrary to the established way of learning instruments. I remember hearing stories by lightning hopkins and guys from his era that were raised on rural farms. they took screen wire, broom handles, cigar boxes, and nails, and made guitars. They would say they played music on them. Most of us think - wow he played all that stuff we hear on record on one of those things. Wrong. He made joyful noise, but his fantasy was all hearing that good sounding guitar stuff that he eventually was able to get on a real guitar. Now guys build these cigar box things with real pickups and expensive gear in them. I bet lightning's belly would be aching from laughing so hard. He would probably say- why in the hell would anyone build a piece of garbage like that when they could buy a real guitar. the power of fantasy, driven by the need to hear what satifies your soul is the most powerful learning tool on earth. I have been asked for years to write an instruction book on working with special needs students learning proper behaviors and work/life/social skills. I refuse because all it takes is applying common sense/real life consequences. set up a classroom that involves these things and you got all the book right before your eyes. The same goes for learning music. Allow yourself to hear the sounds that make you feel good when you play and you will get there instantly. The world may not agree, but you feel it. That is all that matters and as the years go on, you master these sounds via the instruments that make them. Does this make sense??? Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137
http://www.youtube.com/user/waltertore
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2010 10:46 AM
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KeithE
87 posts
Jan 14, 2010
10:35 AM
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If you want a quick idea about Barrett's approach, sign into bluesharmonica.com and check out the sample lessons that he had. Try the "Applying what you learn (Improvising)" lessons.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
321 posts
Jan 14, 2010
10:51 AM
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improv is the only way i can play as a rookie,If i feel a song the rest just flows,I might have a off note or 2 or 3 but most times it works nothing fancy,but its 100% feel and flow.Im trying to work on tecniqes thats a lot harder for me to try and play something thats set in stone a lot harder,I will probelly allways be a improv player mainly but im trying to add more variety by trying to learn certain rules of ways to play.although after over 15 years on guitar i know maybe 6 covers but have created 80 or more originals,Im kinda Know what Waltertore means when he describes music.Although i have looked negatively about not being able to copy so to speak and not really happy with just creating,I think the best players of a instrument can do both. thats my dream to be able to do both with out effert
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congaron
434 posts
Jan 14, 2010
11:17 AM
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I know there is mixed emotion on learning licks here. For me, learning licks gives me a "bag of tricks" I can draw from as I improvise. This week, I have learned some jazzy licks i really like in a blues context and have been stringing them together with typical bluesy things I hear in some of the "standard" blues fare. It's an exercise, but I am assembling a very cool rock solo with it for a song my lead guitarist recently wrote. I'm sure it will never be the same twice, but repetition of licks I stumble on until I can nail them repeatedly gives me ideas to use when i play live and end up cutting loose. Adam had a video with a descending run starting on hole ten 1/2 step bend. I have yet to copy it exactly, since i haven't listened to it again, but the idea has given me many hours of practice on ascending and descending runs to navigate around the harp. Familiarity with the instrument is key for me. Improvising comes easier for me live than to backing tracks, frankly. The crowd, reaction I guess. I structure each solo using elements of the melody being sung and primary rhythm patterns I play during the vocals. Then I navigate between them as needed using scale runs or silence...surprisingly often it is silence. Whole measures of silence are not uncommon at all.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
322 posts
Jan 14, 2010
11:19 AM
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what i was wondering the other day was say to a genius harp player for example Little Walter,Say with juke did he improv that i mean he must of basically he probelly had set it in stone after a while but the very 1st time it was created.I know you cant rely on a movie but in cadilac records it kinda despicts it that way he just played what he felt but of course he was a genius at harp,what i was wondering people try to copy his licks and rightly so,but i wonder did he copy something or someone at times and apply it or just creat it or both i wonder.
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waltertore
99 posts
Jan 14, 2010
11:32 AM
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everyone copies others at some point. Little walter had lots of other harp players in him. There is never a one person that can be traced to any musicial style begining. In the begining, usually through mistakes in forgeting to do it "right" a new idea come out. Trying too hard won't get it because if you are trying too hard, you will stop and immediately try to get it right and miss that special window when mistakes open you up to the real musical universe. A style emerges after years of getting sidetracked from copying others because there is stuff in you that has to come out and you have the skills to do it. If you do it all right, you will die still discovering the depth of your style. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137
http://www.youtube.com/user/waltertore
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2010 12:05 PM
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Tuckster
345 posts
Jan 14, 2010
11:34 AM
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Actually,quite a while back,there was a thread about LW getting Juke from an earlier song.I can't remember,perhaps somebody here does.
I think its almost impossible to play an instrument without being influenced by someone. There are countless famous musicians who have said "I tried to learn every lick such and such did." That's the kernel,but then they make it their own,in their own unique style.It's like learning a language. You start out with ma-ma or da-da,you mimic the sounds.Once you learn to mimic enough sounds(words),you start to speak the language.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
323 posts
Jan 14, 2010
11:39 AM
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yea i guess thats right got to crawl befor you can walk
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Hobostubs Ashlock
324 posts
Jan 14, 2010
11:39 AM
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but i want to run
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bluemoose
108 posts
Jan 14, 2010
11:43 AM
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Little Walter was listening to and copying horn players. But he wasn't just randomly string licks together. If you look at Dave Barrett's chorus forms, AAA, AAB, etc., what these are are ways to pattern your licks so that your solos can actually say something and don't just noodle for 12/24/36 bars. Nothing is more boring than guitar/harp wanking.
Dave does an exercise with LW instrumentals to work out the chorus form for each 12 bar portion of the piece. Very useful. It changes the way you listen to music. But it's not rigid patterns. There is plenty of room for variety.
As well he gets structure from other techniques besides pattern. Dynamics, in complexity, intensity, note focus, etc.
Lots of stuff to work with. Several of his books are worthwhile. The new on-line stuff seems worth looking into.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
325 posts
Jan 14, 2010
11:49 AM
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i seen that on his site im not enrolled but was just curious if i had the money i would probelly check into it more the AAA AAB ect,I was wondering i am a student at harmonica academy and Tony teaches AABB songs for the celtic tunes sections i Understand how AABB works for that but was wondering if it would apply for blues and if it was related to what i saw on David Barrets site with AAA AAB, so much to learn so little time lol
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waltertore
100 posts
Jan 14, 2010
11:49 AM
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You should always want to run! I decided to be a real sit down drummer this week so I unhooked my 1 man band rig drum set up and put it in a traditional kit set up. This was my first time behind a drum kit with sticks in my hand instead of on my feet, and man was I excited. Then I pushed record and played and built songs around the beats. Vola! WIthin 10 minutes I was a drummer! What others think is of no concern to me. I loved doing it. I posted them on my soundclick site as well. I have never been one to woodshed. I just play. My first band advertised for an harp player/singer. I had never sang before but I answered the ad and sang and got the gig. My first lp was done in brussels. I had a slick demo with a great bay area guitarist. When I got to the studio they wanted to know where my guitarist was. I calmly said I am the guitarist. I had never played guitar in a band set up before, but led on I was the slick guitarist. I got them to record it and it sold pretty good. Dream big cause life is short! Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137
http://www.youtube.com/user/waltertore
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2010 11:51 AM
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Randy G. Blues
142 posts
Jan 14, 2010
12:07 PM
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Of the many I make use of, one of the basics I learned from his class is to build musical tension to keep the audience involved. There are lots of ways to do that, but for a simple example, repeat a 4 bar riff three times, then start the 4th bar the same way but vary it a bit (or a lot), or out in a pause, or use it to thke you to the next phrase. Make the audience expect you to repeat it again, then take then to a new place.
it is the musical equivalent of the old Knock-Knock joke:
KK - Who's there? - Banana - Banana who?
KK - Who's there? - Banana - Banana who?
KK - Who's there? - Orange - Orange who?
Orange you glad I didn't say banana!
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congaron
438 posts
Jan 14, 2010
1:41 PM
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From playing congas/bongo, I found out you can learn an instrument and try for all you are worth to do it "correctly" according to cultural or classical standards...and find yourself bored stiff with it because you aren't into the specific music that may require. Not saying latin or cuban or african music bores me stiff per-se, just that i don't have much of an application for it in my playing. I knoe how to do it, but find myself doing something else most of the time, except during my practice sessions. I am told I have a "sound" of my own, and people like it.
Learning rudiments according to established standards can and does take you a long way, but eventually you MUST become like Walter and feel what you are doing. If you don't, nobody else will feel what you are doing either. If that is not important because "I play for my own enjoyment"...like I hear so often, so be it. If passing your music on to others is important to you, though...you must let go of inhibitions and use what you learn on the fly. The old saying "practice makes perfect" is really true. Not only for xerox playing of someone's licks, but for having a firm grasp on where everything you are able to do fits into music and where it doesn't.
I think it was Jeff beck who commented on BB king blowing the audience totally away with one note immediately after he (Jeff) had just blown them away with everything he had. Maybe someone here can recall the quote...it may be someone else, but I think it was him.
Okay, why did i write all that? I wanted to add the idea of musicianship at any skill level. There is something you can do musically at any level of technical ability you have. You just need to find it.
One of the things i emphasize to brand new guitar students..or any new instrument i teach for free...is not to over think and get discouraged. Perspective on where you are right now can really help you move forward as a musician. Last night I was watching a Gussow video where he mentioned 1985. I said to my wife...that was 25 years ago! I guess i shouldn't be overly concerned about being as good as he is.
For some people, memorizing something cold allows them the freedom to make it sound improvised. This is broadway, for example. If it is copied from some other obscure artist..like a guy in your church or something, the audience will never know the difference. Their applause may drive you to another level in your next opportunity.
Always strive to break free, though.
There are many ways to skin the musical cat and very few absolutes.
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waltertore
101 posts
Jan 14, 2010
2:12 PM
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I guess I need to define practice because I am often misunderstood (not here yet!) on forums. To me, practice is playing music with no thoughts to try and copt some sort of lick, tone, time, chord, phrase. It is just plain simply playing music and I probably play more than most pros put in. I was pro, but now it is a hobby. I am glad becasue the music business is one of the most conservative ones out there. Do something different where there is no slot to plug you right in, and you will really have a hard time getting gigs. Now I don't have to worry about money coming from my music. This has been probably the most freeing thing that has happened to it since I started out as a kid. I play when I want and money has no influence. I play at least 2-3 hours a day, 7 days a week. For about a 5 year period I literally played from the time I was up till I passed out in the wee hours. I would head out to the street and play from morning till one of my band members picked me up to do our evening gig. I was so deep in a troubled heart that the only relief came via playing. I felt good while playing and as soon as I stopped I felt terrible. I had no car, no girl, slept in a walk in closet for $25 a month, and stole to buy harps and strings. I regret stealing, but at that point we were playing 20-30 dates a month in the SF bay area and barely breaking even. Lots of gigs were backing up the likes of sonny rhodes, cool papa, mississippi johny waters, johnny b good,etc. I insisted on giving them 2/3 of the take and the band (4 of us split the 1/3). Anyway, in all this playing, the only time I thought was when backing these guys up because they had set songs to follow. I loved being around them, but eventually my drive to do all spontaneous music took over. Then the money went way south. People that came to our shows backed way off because they had no idea what would come out. This was confusing to me but a good thing in many ways because I got more time to play on my own due to gigs falling off. I figure I have played 4 lifetimes at least so far and there seems to be no end in sight. I am warming up my tube preamps as I type and putting my 1 man band rig back up. The overdubbing thing is done for now. I feel like a forienger in my own songs. Follow your heart and you will never play bad music! Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137
http://www.youtube.com/user/waltertore
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2010 2:17 PM
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Hobostubs Ashlock
326 posts
Jan 14, 2010
2:59 PM
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waltertore
Do you believe what they say you have to live the blues to really play the blues,I ask this because it sounds like youve lived the blues,I have not a dollar to my name,no car ,no girl,no job,and i make guitar strings last 6 months sometimes ouch the closest music store is 30 miles there and back plus no money like i said,if a harp busts oh well one less i have,but im living with my mom and dad hes blind so it helps to have me around but there on a fixed income,I am a certified welder so when things get better economy wise and a firgure out how to fix my car situation ill be back in the saddle,but sometimes i get down. until i think hey i got my health i aint starving, a place to lay my head,there people with a lot worse than me,But the question i was trying to get to, does suffering make for better music,I think if i won the lottery i could write better blues songs,sometimes i think thers to much to this living the blues to play the blues but what do i know lol one lost soul to another
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waltertore
102 posts
Jan 14, 2010
4:04 PM
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Hobostubs: I know when things get too blue, you can't play. We all live the blues on maybe different finacial levels, but if you feel blue, you got the blues. No matter how down you are, you are way better off than a starving to death 3rd world person. It is all relative I belive. Those days when I would play flat, stuck hole harps and put knots in my strings where they broke and then capo above the knot, or play with only a string or 2 on the guitar were frustrating as hell. Sometimes I would get so mad I thought I might kill someone. thank god that never happened. One thing I did do and continue to do, is move. When things get to feeling sour, we move. being stuck in a rut is the blues I don't do well with. I have lived in austin, california, NJ, NYC, brussels, oslo, arizona, and now ohio. I went to each place knowing no one. I have found stagnating is the kind of blues that keep me from being happy and creative. When I move, there are tons of stresses like where do you go for work, food, doctors, no friends, and every move requires a lot of brain juice. We moved here to ohio from California 2.5 years ago. It was a blind move and like all our other moves, things continue to get better each time. When we left from Ca to norway for a tour (without a contract) everyone told me I was nuts. I laughed and said I was going to be a star. When we pulled into the olso boat dock, no one greeted us. We had a couple hundred dollars and it was january. we were dressed in california attire. Long story short, the tour fell through, and we snuck on the train/boat and got kicked off in brussels. I found the big shopping street and played the harp/guitar for 8-10 hours a day while my wife passed the hat. that earned us enough to buy a funky no bathroom room, and a 1/2 a chicken and a bag of carrots. Eventually things improved and I ended up playing some of the best clubs and festivals in northern europe/scandinavia. We were there 2.5 years and left because I had no work permit. We were with Luther Tucker (friend from the bay area) and he got deported for no permit. We stayed another year, but too stressed. I was featured in a special called the roots of rock along with bo didly, chuck berry, the stones, and others. I was getting too popular and some local musicians use to come to my brussels gigs drunk and threaten to call the gendarme on me. We left after the cops came knocking on our door complete with uzi machine guns and belgian shepards. It was tower air back to NYC for $100 and I went from making some great $ and respect, to not being able to get in the worst dives. So, I cut grass and judy waitressed until we had enough $ to make it to austin. then it all went incredibly well. My first night there we stayed with luther tucker. Clifford antone had him there as the local blues relic. He told me of a little club. I went there, played my record and the owner booked me solid every night. The first night 2 young kids came up and asked to jam. It was will and charlie sexton. I had no idea who they were, but soon did. they took me right up to the top floor of the austin music scene and the black cat lounge became my home base when I was in town for 10 years. Now we are in ohio, in a great little village in a 120 year old big house. I was able to build a recording studio in it and live there most of my non working waking hours. It is the dream I have dreamed of for at leat 40 years. My own space to create music uniterupted. It has taken this long for the pieces of the puzzle to fall in place. I live my life spontaneously/improvising. See, things just keep getting better with each move! You just have to blindly follow your heart. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137
http://www.youtube.com/user/waltertore
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2010 4:37 PM
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phogi
182 posts
Jan 14, 2010
4:45 PM
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Walter,
I can dig what you are saying. I often use that technique, just letting my mind go blind and playing what I feel. Also, I feel what you are saying about the music biz. Stories like yours are part of the reason I took the route I did.
Hobostubs,
I think suffering makes for great music if that suffering allows you more time to play. In other words, it's an independent variable. However:
However,
I'm going to try to keep this one on track for the folks out there wanting to learn about structuring a solo.
Votes So far:
Go by feel: 1
Check out David Barrett, use recognized forms: 2
Go by feel, copy others: 1
Learn by listening: 1
String licks together: 1
Learn licks, then solos, then your own
What else ya got?
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Hobostubs Ashlock
327 posts
Jan 14, 2010
4:55 PM
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phogi said
Check out David Barrett, use recognized forms
do you have to be enrolled to get the recognized form info,if so is there other info on the same subject availble for free?Does Adam have any videos about it?
the the AAA AAB ect stuff thanks
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2010 4:56 PM
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Hobostubs Ashlock
328 posts
Jan 14, 2010
5:02 PM
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wow i just read your post Waltertore you should write a book,Thats very interesting life you have lived.
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waltertore
103 posts
Jan 14, 2010
5:08 PM
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there is one in the works. Sorry to get off topic. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137
http://www.youtube.com/user/waltertore
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Blocker
30 posts
Jan 15, 2010
2:35 AM
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@Hobostubs Ashlock I have recently subscribed to David’s "School of the Blues" and I have been hugely impressed. You first learn all the chorus's of a couple of songs that have been specifically written for the level that you are at. Then David goes through and demonstrates how to mix lines from the learned song into the various chorus forms along with fills etc. This is intended to help build a library of licks in your brain, to call upon when needed to suit a particular song you may be improvising to.
I know this structured form of learning may not be for everyone, but I have found it very useful and it is definitely increasing my enjoyment of the instrument.
I have been learning for about 18mts starting from scratch using what resources I could find on the internet (this site has been an absolute blessing). Unfortunately I don't have any natural creative or musical talent, but I love blues harmonica so much that I am determined to be the best I can be. I find that using David chorus form blues phrasing is definitely helping.
If you are interested in a cheap and brief introduction, I recommend Mel Bays "Blues Harp Licks Chart" by David Barrett as I think it sell for less than $10.
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KeithE
88 posts
Jan 15, 2010
8:03 AM
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Hobostubs - there are two free lessons that you can check out without signing up, and they both cover the chorus forms.
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Tuckster
346 posts
Jan 15, 2010
8:54 AM
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@hobo-Dave Barrett has a book "Improvising Blues Harmonica",that covers song forms. Adam has highly recommended it.
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Honkin On Bobo
177 posts
Jan 15, 2010
9:06 AM
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Thanks tuck.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
329 posts
Jan 15, 2010
10:20 AM
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thanks guys ill have to check them out
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walterharp
186 posts
Jan 15, 2010
8:13 PM
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I thought the fundamentals of soloing are building improvisation onto structure. The formula in jazz is starting with the structure (the melody and chords) and improvising from there.. then at the end deconstructing and repeating the structure (melody and chords). Many blues tunes do this with the improv breaks in the middle.
Often the most effective improv solo is little more than repeating the melody of the song with slight nuance or some twists
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hvyj
81 posts
Jan 16, 2010
6:02 AM
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Diggs said: "Learn the alphabet. Then learn vocabulary and then write sentences."
This is good advice. Learn scales. Then learn the relationship of scale tones to chord tones. Once you do that, you can make up your own licks and you will know which ones fit over what parts (chords) of a particular tune.
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Fredrider51
109 posts
Jan 16, 2010
10:04 AM
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i like that knock knock thing that makes a lot of sense and if go to (www Harmonica sessons.com) David Barritt has a great website check it out
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Fred
HARP (Harmonica Assn 'Round Philly)
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HarpNinja
65 posts
Jan 16, 2010
3:31 PM
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David Barrett's stuff is awesome!!! Worth every penny! The catch is, you have to assimilate the info and then forget it when you're playing. His teaching model tends to focus on creating solos with riffs...which is fine...but there is more to being "great" than that.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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Diggsblues
18 posts
Jan 16, 2010
4:52 PM
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The Melody elements solo method is one school of thought.
Miles Davis used this sometimes. Miles was a master of
moving the time of the melody notes around.
There are two version of My Funny Valentine by Miles.
They show two different ways of moving the melody
around.I analyzed the solos back in college. The professor used my work in his class for years
after I had left.
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phogi
189 posts
Jan 17, 2010
3:54 PM
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Ok, so, here are some thought I have about stucture for soloing - DEATH TO NOODLING!
(assuming a 12 bar pattern)
1) Repetition and variation - Play something over the first four bars, then play it again over the next four bars. Then take off over the next four bars, letting it loose.
2) Play the same melody twice, but the second time alter the timing.
3) Basic principal - set up expectations, then fulfill them - Or don't!
4) Certain tones really create a sense of direction. Creating a sense of direction is certainly an element of structure. Scale degree 2 comes to mind, on the V chord, as does #7, more so than the 5th degree.
What else you got?
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