Hi all. I've only been playing harp for a couple of months so maybe i'm getting ahead of myself here but i'm trying to learn overblows. I can do the bends on holes 1 thru 6 and the blow bends on 8, 9 and 10 so i decided to try this technique. I read the guy on the overblow.com site say that learning the overblow is easier than learning the bends in holes 2 and 3! Well i don't know if i agree with that!
So i took his advice and took the cover plate off my harp and began trying to choke the blow reed while covering the draw reed with my thumb. I choked it off a bit but i couldn't get any overblow to sound at all. Also when i tried it round the other way and held my index finger over the blow slot and then blew the harp once again i got no sound!
I checked my action on hole 1 to make sure it was gapped pretty narrow but still no good. Gapping it any tighter chokes the reed off completely and then i get no sound at all even with the standard blow note.
Pretty frustrating! While learning to bend was hard initially i quickly got an idea of what i needed to do but not with these overblows.
On David Barrett's site, bluesharmonica.com, he now has a great series of lessons that teach overblowing. I haven't ventured into that world yet, but-- if it's like the other material on his site-- I'm sure it'll be comprehensive and challenging. ---------- Marc Graci YouTube Channel
Breath technique is a bit different, so you may have to focus on this. It's like high end exhale bending, but the tongue arches more in the mid area towards roof of mouth. Also, air stream has to be a bit more intensely focused. ---------- The Iceman
WOW! Thanks guys for all the info. I didn't think there would be any replies yet and just checked back in to see three!
Yeah i watched one of Adam's videos on this and i'm sure he mentioned hole 6 to start with. Only reason i tried to do it on hole 1 was i was on overblow.com for some advice and watched this video where the guy said do it on hole 1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80b3NM4ar9Q
I had absolutely no progress doing this with the covers off, so far at least. Not even a hint of an overblow! Still i'll just keep plugging away. Reason i want to be able to do it is to be able to play chromatically in that bottom octave and to get the flat 3rd in the middle octave.
Sounds pretty similar to the way I got my first overblow but try all the different things people suggest, including the straw trick, heh. Think my first was a golden melody I removed the covers & put my upper lip over the top 6 blow reed so it wouldn't respond when blowing. Then I blew & blew many many times with different wind & different directions of air & eventually it happened, the bottom reed made a sound. Though I don't think it was a good one the first few lol. I thought it got pretty easier from that point but I still spent lots of time getting them. Overdraws didn't come for me till another year or two later, they're a bit different & really depend on harmonica set up along with the 1 overblow, I find. Some key harmonicas in the mid range may be easiest & I'd stick with top seydel, Suzuki, or hohners when learning.
Thanks Ryan. I'll try it on hole 6 and concentrate on that for now. It's a bit of a pain to keep taking the covers off and on every day but i only have one Hohner Special 20 at the moment.
Yeah i heard overdraws were even harder than overblows! Ah! well, that's them out for a few years then!
Hi Gary 62... I think when Tinus says overblow is eSier than draw 2 and 3 bends, he is meaning the challenge of playing all those notes in tune rather than just getting a pitch change, but whatever... Disclaimer: overblow technique is not my forte. I can get them on 6 hole of most harps, well enough to use in performance. That is, I can get it reliably, in time, sustain it, bend it up. Tongue blocked, and lipped. 4 & 5 I can also get on many harps. On G harps I can often get the 7, but only tongue blocked. I couldn't get anywhere at all with it for a long time. Like I tried, sporadically, for several years with no hint of success. Then Jimi lee mentioned in passing that ob6 was a lot like blow bend 8, and I decided to work on my blow bends instead. After a while I tried a ob6 on a d harp...an annoyingly tight harp which I'd set aside as it was too easy to choke when I was playing in the band...and I started getting the 6ob...for a few days that was the only harp I could do it on, but I adjusted a couple more, messed a few well-playing harps up so they'd play overblows but were useless for regular playing unless I was very careful to play softly. Anyway, these days often i find the 6 available on many harps, even unadjusted...(I see a lot of harps because I repair for others, and this is one of the main reasons I work on the technique). A customer sent me a couple custom harps and I found the 4 and 5 for the first time, now I can often get those but I haven't incorporated in my playing... So...I think once you get a start you'll probably come along ok. I'd definitely say start on the 6. The 1 is probably one of the more challenging holes... The reed you need to choke is the blow reed. The draw reed will provide the overblow. And I'm convinced that working on blow bends made a big difference. The real bonus is that blow bends took me into the world of jimmy reed and stevie wonder and prewar first position and I discovered part of the harmonica I had not really explored is actually the most fun I've ever had with playing harmonica...
Last Edited by SuperBee on Sep 02, 2015 2:08 PM
I've lost track of the video, but maybe a year ago someone posted a video on how to overblow that used a slightly different way to explain it. It helped but I'm completely forgetting what metaphor he used. All I remember is it was a guy sitting in a car explaining it, which should narrow down the search by eliminating the three harmonica videos online that aren't a guy sitting in a car!
Superbee: Thanks man. Yeah i took the covers off my SP 20 about 30 mins ago and went to practice it on hole 6 but no go, hopeless! I can bend hole 8 and 9 pretty good and hole 10 i'm getting there with but when i block say hole 6 draw reed and try to choke the blow reed i'm getting nowhere! I try to bend it down and choke it but it's just not happening.
I'll go and bang my head on the wall for a couple of mins here to vent my frustration! (only joking)
The first stage of success I think is to be able to play the blow note and make it stop sounding...so you are blowing but the blow reed is not responding. That's what I'm meaning when I say choke the blow reed. The next step is that the draw reed starts to play, but it gives a higher note than usual because it's playing as an opening reed rather than a closing reed... I better shut up now because there are some folks here who actually know what they are talking about and I'm gonna be like a toddler in a diving pool about now
Hi SuperBee. Yeah i tried blocking the blow reed but still am not getting anything. The reason i was blocking off the draw reed was because of the video from the overblow.com guy where he says you have to learn to choke the blow reed first.
It'll come eventually, but it's complicated isn't it?
Another thing is action. You're best to have the blow reed gapped pretty tight aren't you? What about the draw reed any idea how tight you position that? I opened that reed up a bit using Adam's paper under the reed method in order to make it easier to bend.
When Tinus talks of "choking" the blow reed he means stopping it from sounding using the resonance of your mouth. Stopping the *blow* reed with your finger is a shortcut way of doing the same thing.
If you stop the draw reed, you will never get an overblow because the draw reed is the sounding reed in an overblow.
i'd probably close that draw reed down a bit tighter than usual to get started. physically, you have to stop the blow reed vibrating, even though you are blowing...and you need to get the draw reed vibrating even though you're blowing...so if the draw reed is gapped widely the air can easily escape through that slot without disturbing the reed enough to make it start singing
First at all. Bends are much more dificult than overblow. Doing the 3 steps bends of the 3 hole in pitch at the same volume is a question of years. To do an overblow try to bend the 6 draw and in the same positión of the tongue you have to blow.(I use them a lot in the six positions i had learn playing) Is a good idea learning from a real teacher(not from internet) and customize the harp.
I saw that video, too, Nate. Wasn't it Shoulders who did it?? He was talking about the H-spot I think. I believe Tinus talks about that, too. It's about how to shape your tongue and it's very useful way of approach. You want to make a hissing H-sound with your middle hump of the tongue close to the ceiling of your mouth as The Iceman said. Kind of the start of a Spanish pronunciation of Jesus.
FWIW, I never removed my cover plates. Just do it, man. ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Christelle once showed me that one way to do it was to use a similar embouchure to the 8 blow bend. And Howard Levy showed a way to do it by moving from the 6 draw to 6 draw bend and then keep the bending embouchure on the blow note. I can usually get a 6OB on an unmodified harp using these methods but I am still learning the basics so haven't spent that much time focusing on this aspect.
@Pistolcat. Rubbing shoulders with the great is regrettably a rare experience... Maybe two or three top names pass through Oz in any given year. Christelle lived in Sydney a while back, and I got to hang out with her a few times. Her explanation was very good. I once went to a Howard Levy workshop and he showed how he could overblow without particularly hard breath pressure. All a bit beyond me but I just repeat the advice they gave. :)
Once you understand where to focus that air stream, you don't need force - you can finesse (although I personally use a bit of impulse at the beginning of the note to get the OB to pop in). ---------- The Iceman
Thanks guys so much for the help so far. That video was great grey owl it kinda got me on to thinking more about the correct tongue positioning .
Anyway i got the overblow on hole 6! But i stress i can't just get it at will. The way i got it was play the blow note normally and slowly bend it down pushing my rear tongue further up to the roof of the mouth. Then it got to a point where the note choked off and the overblow popped in.
Sometimes it pops in with a nice sound other times it sounds as though it's shrieking a bit.
Anyway i feel better about it now and Iceman your post is right on the button it's all to do with positioning because i didn't use hardly any force at all and the OB popped out.
Now to be able to do it in isolation!! That'll probably take forever! It's like the bends in Hole 3, i can get them all but going directly to a bent note in that hole from a note in another hole and have it in tune is another thing entirely!
I am finding there are a lot of different ways to get an overblow. I suspect is has to do with getting your oral cavity to the correct volume to create a Helmholtz resonator at the frequency of the desired note. there many shapes that have the same volume (cc not dB). I have noticed that the overblow embouchures for me that require less strain are those that have the harp deeper in the mouth. Some harps work better than others. My easiest to overblow harp is a Low F Seydel Noblel. I don't know if it is the key, the design or that it just happens to be set up well. It may just be that I paid a lot for the harp so I expect it to work well! ;-)
"I suspect it has to do with getting your oral cavity to the correct volume to create a Helmholtz resonator at the frequency of the desired note." I usually call this "vocal resonance". Congratulations Gary 62
Gnarly, I think you just pointed out why engineers sometimes have a bit of difficulty communicating with non engineers. I'll bet a lot more people get the gist of what vocal resonance is than would have a clue about Helmholtz resonation! Thanks
Well done Gary! You've got it. Just needs more practice now to refine it. However sometimes the blow note doesn't completely choke and you hear some sound leak from the blow reed along with the overblow and sometimes the draw reed doesn't like the pressure and makes a shrieking sound (this is when you may have to look at adjusting the gaps on the reeds which is an entirely different ball game especially for a new player). I made a video a while back on playing an overblow on hole 6 on an A harp HERE All the best.
Last Edited by Grey Owl on Sep 03, 2015 9:41 AM
I'm no master overblower, but I've been using the 4,5, and 6 in my playing for a couple of years now. Some people have described the initiation of the OB with "back pressure". My understanding of this is the use of the diaphragm to "support" the OB with breath force (similar to how a singer supports his voice). Indeed, you do not need to blow hard to get the OB, just supply the necessary support from the diaphragm. That also allows you to sustain the OB. If I have a reed that squeals, I can usually get it to sound cleanly by reducing the pressure a bit. To my mind, breath control is the key to overblowing. It took me several years of playing (and there was plenty to learn in that time without OBs) to gain that control. Others have taken on OBs early and been extremely successful, e.g. Harpdude61 on this forum. Best of luck with it. ----------
Last Edited by mr_so&so on Sep 03, 2015 10:05 AM
I have to agree with Ice Ice Larry in regard using just a bit of pulse to get it to initially 'pop'. Then, back off and do with it what you will (or can).
---------- ~Buzadero Underwater Janitor, Patriot MBH poster since 11Nov2008
I had TurboDog (James Antaki) modify my Session Steel with the TurboSlide, and what I notice is that the overblows are more stable--the magnets in the slide lower the pitch of the blow reeds by attracting them toward the reed plate, effectively lowering the gapping (or "action", as I keep trying to call it). I think James makes or has made the Bahnson 10 hole overblow harp, that would really get a beginner started. I have never seen one, but I know of them.
"Popping" an overblow implies pressure build-up and release. I do use that if that is the style of note that the phrase calls for...or you can play it as gently as any other note.
I hear talk of using similar embouchures to another type note. I made it easy on myself. I use the same embouchure for ANY style note. Drop the jaw, tilted harp deep, and you can play unbent notes, bent notes, and overbends. Reshape the resonator by reshaping the throat which in turn provides the needed arc of the tongue. Keep it as big and open as you can but this will take time as muscles need to develop.
Sounds like my buddy mr so&so is on track! ---------- www.facebook.com/catfishfryeband
Thanks guys. It definitely feels a really different way to play a note. To me when i get it right and try to repeat the OB when i have my embouchure in the right position it feels as if the push is coming right from the back of the tongue right where the throat is.
I want to build the control to where i can get it when i want it. A long way off with that but i'm still pleased that at least i've made some inroads into it.
I tried holes 1 4 and 5 but nothing doing there. Did exactly the same thing; played the blow note and bent it down but no OB on any of those holes.
I love the harmonica! I'm a guitar player my whole life but i could see harp becoming my main instrument i like it so much!
Forgot to ask this: i read somewhre that when you start learning overblows that's when you can destroy harps!! I hope not! I hope that doesn't happen as i couldn't afford to be buying new harps all the time when i ruin the old one's! I don't know if that's true or not but you guys will know. Is there truth in that?
Last Edited by Gary 62 on Sep 03, 2015 11:53 AM
Overblows don't destroy reeds, it's the learning process. Two main reasons for reed failure, AFAIK--playing too loud and bad vocal resonance. Here's Steve Baker to explain why you need to support the note with the shape and size of your mouth.
I think my personal nomenclature and use of the word "pop" to characterize the cause/effect to make the reed change is more convenience within my own head to label it with something than anything technically accurate. A few years ago, I was trying to describe the physical concept to my brother, the Berklee grad. As a guy that doesn't completely comprehend the mechanics of the overblow beyond the reed-as-reversed/forced-checkvalve principle, I ended up taking about a 3ft (1 meter) length of cotton rope and trying to make the mechanical concept at least partially graspable. Hang the piece of rope from your hand holding one end. The full length is hanging down. Start swirling it in a circle like a cowboy lariat. You can make a big birdcage as it goes around. Now, just like when you were a kid, manipulate the spin so that you are swirling the line in an "S" shape. Now, there are two birdcages spinning, one above the other, one offsetting the other. In my little pea-brain, that is what I envision when I make the 'overblow'. Rather than the reed vibrating from the anchored end with the air passing downstream from anchor end to free-end, the other reed is delivering the sound from vibrating from the air flapping it as an "S" as it passes over it from the free-end moving towards the anchored end. Yeah, I know. I'm no engineer. My brain is laid out like a ransom note, and this is what works for me to even get close to grasping the effect (let alone trying to impart any kind of explanation to someone else). For whatever that's worth....... ---------- ~Buzadero Underwater Janitor, Patriot MBH poster since 11Nov2008
Having a good harp set up helps but as long as it's not screeching it's not that important. Only overdraws can be problematic with a bad harp. Overblows (1 to 6, hole 2&3 included) shouldn't screench anyway. If they are, stop playing a happy color and get a real harp !
So, i am just gonna talk about lip pursing here as i ain't no tongue blocker but it should be applicable on some level. Also, a lot of what i am saying is really what i learnt from one of the best overblower out there, Sebastien Charlier.
Gary, you may want to restart working on your bends when trying to learn to overbends.
Nobody has been saying this so far but the goal is to be able to bend and overbend the same hole with the SAME technique. So if you have a hard time overblowing, you are bending it wrong. There are a lot of way to bend and i am not saying that because everybody and their mother have a different way of getting the bends and explaining them. I am saying that because i can bend the 2' in tune with two different techniques lip pursing. One of them allow me to get a 3°, the other don't. And it's also getting me a warmer and rounder sound too. Win, win, win. Guess witch one i started with ? The wrong one, otherwise i would never even have 2 way of bending the 2'.
You could be in tune and all you want, as long as if you reverse your airflow and it's not producing an overblow, you should consider your bending technique as a wrong one. Not the wrong one, a wrong one.
And by the way, the goal is to have a "note producing technique count" as low as you can. By that, i mean that you should bend and overbend as many hole as you can the same way.
Also, notice how i didn't gave you any advice on how to bend so far ? That's how it's important to me to have the same techniques for both bends and overbends.
I have been working a long time on bending and overbending hole 4 to 6 the same way and can't get it... but i also came to realise that i am bending 2', 3" and the whole 4th hole the same way while i bend/overbend hole 5 through 7 with one position. Don't be adamant on trying to do as you read/heard. it may not work for you exactly the same way but the general concept of how to do it should apply.
As for how to bend the best advice i could give you is to keep your mouth as relaxed as you can, never ever move it to force the bends and only use your tongue to bend. The front part of the tongue should always be free to articulate any way you want on any sort of note (bend/overbends), the medium and back (or throat) should be used to bend. If you can't articulate an overbend because the tip of your tongue isn't free, start from scratch. The 10 hole double over bend is an exception though, as you have to get the tip of your tongue out of the harp to get it so...yeah, it's hard to articulate with that one.
Oh, and the most important advice i have is to not get too obsessed with bending and overbending. You may not want to work only on that cause in the end, you'll be able to to overbend perfectly but if you never stop to play a blues, it's not gonna help you to play one.
Being able to hit a key on a keyboard never made anybody a great pianist. Learning bends and overbends is just learning to do something anybody can do effortlessly on another instrument. it's sad to say but it's not that much while learning music is concerned. I know a lot of what i wrote may seem obvious but forgeting the obvious things is a common trap while learning ob.
Thanks guys keep any tips you have coming i've learnt a lot of ideas. I started to get the hole 5 OB here and there today as well as making the hole 6 one more consistent rather than totally hit and miss like it was yesterday.
One thing i noticed when i tried to set the draw reeds tight so they responded sooner was every now and then they'd choke out so i'll probably have to fine tune the set up there. It's a bit like a balancing act adjust it too much and you get no sound!
What holes can you get the OB in? I thought it was 1 4 5 6 only but i noticed that on bending hole 7 down i seem to get one kicking in there as well?
EDIT: No not hole 7 it's hole 8 i mean! When i bend that i seem to get something weird kicking in there as well. I didn't think you could get an OB in that hole tho?
Last Edited by Gary 62 on Sep 04, 2015 1:01 PM
Meant to say guys that i can get the OB in hole 6 but sustaining it is pretty difficult it always wants to slip away back to the regular blow note. Sometimes when i get it right on a can sustain it for a good few seconds but most times it get it for about a second or two then it slips. Is sustaining it just practice? Or are there any ideas i need to use?
"What holes can you get the OB in? I thought it was 1 4 5 6[...]"
You can overblow holes 1 through 6 and overdraw holes 7 through 10. However, the overbend notes on holes 2, 3 and 8 are redundant, I.e., you can get them without resorting to overbend said.
"it's hole 8 i mean! When i bend that i seem to get something weird kicking in there as well. I didn't think you could get an OB in that hole tho?"
No overblow on hole 8. Are you sure you aren't getting hole 9 bleeding in a bit?
Last Edited by timeistight on Sep 04, 2015 1:15 PM
Play a 6 draw bend all the way to the floor...then, keeping your same embouchure, reverse the air flow to a blow. ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog
timeistight: 'No overblow on hole 8. Are you sure you aren't getting hole 9 bleeding in a bit?'
I could be getting bleed over but it didn't feel like it. It felt like that same feeling you get when you overblow say hole 6, after bending the note down when it chokes out the OB comes in. That's the way it felt. It can't be an OB though.
So really 1 4 5 and 6 are the real usable overblows? I was working it out and they say the OB is a minor third above the regular blow note so i thought some of those holes would be redundant because you can get those notes regularly through bends.
Yes. It's all about developing fine motor control. You need to keep the air pocket in your mouth the correct size while you maintain airflow. As you blow harder, the pocket will want to become bigger (like more pressure expands a balloon). To compensate, you will contract muscles in your mouth to squeeze down and reduce the size of the air pocket.
Likewise, if you lighten up your airflow, the lower pressure will shrink the air pocket and you will need to relax your muscles to keep the size just right.
"So really 1 4 5 and 6 are the real usable overblows?"
Well, they are the holes with the extra notes.
Here's a diagram. Regular (blow and draw) bends are in blue, overblows and overdraws are in orange:
The 8 overdraw is a very useful note, especially if you can bend the overdraws. It takes on the same characteristic as the five draw quarter step bend if you bend it down, or if you bend it upwards, it can take on the sound of a 5 draw bend of a country tuned harmonica. I use both techniques on hole 8 overdraw regularly.
Also, on some harps, depending on the gapping, the 7-10 draw notes (and sometimes the 1-6 blow notes) will bend a little bit, sometimes as much as a half step or more. Many of my Spiers harps do this on the draw notes on 7-10, and even more so on lower keys.
No it doesn't Iceman, the correct technique is the one that get you both normal bends and overbends without changing anything but the airflow.
Just saying you get deep on the technique without explaining anything at all about those differences is just not cool.
The only thing i do differently when performing an overbend and a normal bend on the same hole is to exhale or inhale. Mouth, lips, tongue, even the force i apply to my breath if i want too. Each time i get out of tune is because i actually do something different and the oposite bend is also out of tune. Each time i get back into tune with proper technique and reverse the airflow, i am still into tune and with that same proper technique. If i ain't and i focus on what i am doing, that's because i somehow deviated from what i know is the correct position, or i didn't breathed correctly and forgot my diaphragm along the way. Which sadly do still happened too often for my taste for the last one.
And saying that bend and overbend is the same technique is not just an advice, to me it's a fact. I used to think that there were subtle differences between bend and overbends. Now i simply don't.
Last Edited by Kaining on Sep 04, 2015 9:38 PM
I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but I can't find it in the replies! The way I learnt (and I'm a new player too) was after following the advise that you start with blow bending 7 then moving all of that force and pucker down to 6 and carrying on. The 6 should choke pretty much immediately and then it's a matter of refining your embouchure to get the reed to sound. Good luck!
If you keep doing that Ian you'll tear up your harps. What kaining is doing is tuning his mouth to an Ab to play the Bb on a C harp 6 hole. That works because the frequencies are closely enough related that the overblow gets some support from the vibrating column, but I have to disagree that it's the "correct" technique. If you go to arzajac's site he has a blog article about tuning, with some illustrations of wave lengths that can help you wrap your mind around what's going on. The strongest support will come from tuning your mouth to the same note as the one you're playing. Playing scales is one way to practice that. Once your brain is trained it'll take over and you don't even have to think about it! ---------- www.spiersharmonicas.com
