ColdT
2 posts
Jan 15, 2010
12:59 PM
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Does anyone have a trick or technique that would help me identify keys of songs without asking the band. Hopefully they know what key they are in. I guess this is a part that covers an intermediate player. I know ive got more work to do, but i play improv with alot of strangers and i could really break out if i could get this down. Some of you may laugh, but the stupidist question is the one that wasnt asked. Be Gentle.....
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2010 1:03 PM
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MrVerylongusername
829 posts
Jan 15, 2010
1:03 PM
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Learn your way around a guitar neck, and watch the bass player or the guitarist
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toddlgreene
490 posts
Jan 15, 2010
1:12 PM
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What Mr. VLUN said;but, be wary of this if your band detunes, as some SRV-inspired guitarists like to do, then you'll have to go down half a step or more from whatever key the fret's position would normally be.
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Todd L. Greene, V.P.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
330 posts
Jan 15, 2010
1:16 PM
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i learned(or tried to learn) the guitar first so i look at what chords are being played and then check a chart that lists the keys i have taped on my harp box, if im not sure,but even then i have trouble some times,The last band i was in I asked the guitar player who plays pretty good what key the song was in and he looked at me funny and said what are keys?
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2010 1:23 PM
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Hobostubs Ashlock
331 posts
Jan 15, 2010
1:17 PM
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toddlegreene i was wondering about that the other day could you give a example i know a lot of guitar players that tune down a little some get close to 440 then back it off some, to what im not sure.there own secret tuning. what do you do then,overblows overdraws and bends lol turn into Howard Levy real quick lol no serious i was just wondering what needs to be done if faced with that
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2010 1:30 PM
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Diggsblues
10 posts
Jan 15, 2010
1:22 PM
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I playe with one once. Had to buy a bunch of flat key
harps. I play some guitar and screwed up my brain a
little.
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toddlgreene
491 posts
Jan 15, 2010
1:30 PM
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If the guitarist/bassist tells you he's tuned down half a step, the key is actually one fret towards the headstock from wherever the root is...easier to follow a bass, unless you know chords well enough on guitar to tell where the root is. Pretty sure I'm explaining that right;been a while since I had to follow a SRV protege'.
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Todd L. Greene, V.P.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
332 posts
Jan 15, 2010
1:33 PM
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so in that situation a lot of flat keyed harps would come in handy?
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toddlgreene
492 posts
Jan 15, 2010
1:36 PM
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yessir. I carry a full keyset wherever I go to play, plus extras. Always play with a finger in one ear first(you'll hear your harp in your mouth loud and clear, even on a noisy stage) if you climb onstage and are unsure of the key before you play on the mic and get dirty looks...then you can reach for another harp and correct it first.
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Todd L. Greene, V.P.
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oldwailer
1017 posts
Jan 15, 2010
2:07 PM
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If a guitar player wants to go out and play with others, he can damn well learn to tune in standard!
I'm a guitar player myself--and I have no patience with anybody who isn't willing to play the standard tunings--retuning a guitar takes about 20 seconds--clip on tuners are cheap and they work really well these days.
If somebody wants to do an SRV or Lighnin' Hopkins detune on you--just tell them to work that out with their own band--a jam session is no place for a prima donna asshole who wants to be SRV or Lightnin'--(BTW, Lightnin' is where SRV got that detune thing).
On the other hand--I love my flat key harps!
Sometimes a guitarist (especially rockers) will use chord forms that are unfamiliar to me--and I can't tell key by watching--in that case, I usually just ask--if they don't know--just go get a beer and wait for a musician to take the stand.
If the guitarist is really into playing with you and he is a good guy, he will just tell you what the key is--if he doesn't, he's most likely a prick anyway. . .
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Blackbird
129 posts
Jan 15, 2010
2:15 PM
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My memory fails me for the specific lesson number, but Adam did one or two videos about finding the key of harp by ear - or by matching key notes and tones in the music. I'll try to find those vids tonight for reference, unless anyone beats me to it. I remember them for teaching me how to more easily find the right harp key for songs when I didn't know the key. Adam's method works.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
333 posts
Jan 15, 2010
2:22 PM
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oldwailer im with you but say there tuned to 440 but then drop the low E down to D a lot of people do that now days Rockers mainly,but there aint no good blues man at the jams im stuck with so i try to rock it some,unfortuntly
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2010 2:22 PM
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HarmonicaMick
9 posts
Jan 15, 2010
2:26 PM
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Your question is by no means a stupid one.
Apart from the above advice, I have nothing much to offer, except that to tell you that very few people have perfect pitch. It's more common in Africa, where some languages (I forget which) are dependent on pitch for their meaning.
I can hear some pitches in my mind by association with pieces I already know and get it right a lot of the time, but I can never do that with the clutter of sound on a bandstand.
I think oldwailer's last sentence is the ultimate answer.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2010 2:28 PM
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Hobostubs Ashlock
334 posts
Jan 15, 2010
3:57 PM
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i thought about starting a thread on this but it kinda fits this topic , when a guitar player tunes to a drop D tuning from 440 (the low E string tuned to D )will that effect what harmonica to be used,will it change the key of a song? what about open tuning DADGAD for example?
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2010 3:58 PM
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MrVerylongusername
831 posts
Jan 15, 2010
4:12 PM
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No - it just changes the voicings of the chords, but the chords remain the same
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Hobostubs Ashlock
335 posts
Jan 15, 2010
4:15 PM
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thanks
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harpinonfire
27 posts
Jan 15, 2010
4:47 PM
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All Adam said was if you are playing crossharp or 2d position just pick up a harp a draw on the 2 hole your home base and if it matches, walla, correct harp. Example band is playing in G you grab a C harp draw on the 2 hole G and it matches. If you don't get a match pick up another harp and draw on the 2 hole until you get a match.
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shanester
62 posts
Jan 15, 2010
5:43 PM
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This may be overly simple but when a song is playing I don't know the key of, I go through the harps and draw on the low notes (123)till I hear the chord that is in tune with song...in cross harp, that is.
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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shanester
63 posts
Jan 15, 2010
5:47 PM
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Hobo, when they drop the low E to D it is very likely that they will play in D, using that string to drone on the tonic note.
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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Hobostubs Ashlock
336 posts
Jan 15, 2010
6:44 PM
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cool thanks shanester
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Gwood420
85 posts
Jan 15, 2010
7:26 PM
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http://www.harmonicamasterclass.com/artist_listing.htm
someone on this forum told me about this, and i know it wont help you figure it out for yourself, but it may help you practice.. you could play a song you dont know, guess what it is by using the above info, and check to see it your right... just a thought...
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2010 7:27 PM
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jawbone
221 posts
Jan 15, 2010
7:29 PM
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This may not work on the bandstand, but what I do is use my Korg chromatic tuner. I hum, whatever tone fits the song, into the tuner and it will tell you the note. Depending on how good your humming is, of course.
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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Hobostubs Ashlock
337 posts
Jan 15, 2010
7:43 PM
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jawbone your kidding right that sounds crazy im not saying your wrong so dont get mad im just saying you must be a hell of a hummer.
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2010 7:44 PM
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Ryan
70 posts
Jan 15, 2010
8:06 PM
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"jawbone your kidding right that sounds crazy im not saying your wrong so dont get mad im just saying you must be a hell of a hummer."
This is essetially the method Adam teaches in his video, except he doesn't use a tuner. Basically he listens to the song and hums the root note(this takes some practice, but it's not as difficult as I intitially thought it would be), then he goes through his harps playing the 2 draw until he finds the one that matches the note he's humming. This of course takes some practice, but it's the method I use and it usually works quite well.
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nacoran
802 posts
Jan 15, 2010
8:36 PM
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Learn the circle of fifths. Keys next to each other sound close. It can help you narrow in on the key. If the first harp you try sounds terrible, skip a few steps around the circle. The closer you get the better it will sound.
Another, better option, is to keep a squirt gun with vinegar with you. Tell the guitar player what key YOU are playing in and if he tries to argue, shoot him a few times while firmly saying, 'Bad Guitar Player'. If you forget your squirt gun swat him in the nose with a rolled up squirt gun.
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jawbone
222 posts
Jan 15, 2010
9:23 PM
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I kid you not - I'm surprised no one else does this. Not on the band stand, I just ask. But if I'm listening to a song at home, I just hum what fits and look at my tuner. What could be simpler??
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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Hobostubs Ashlock
338 posts
Jan 15, 2010
9:56 PM
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i guess ill have to try it
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krisalis
1 post
Jan 16, 2010
12:36 AM
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How I work out keys is like this; if i lower my voice and sing the lowest note i can comfortably, i know that's a d off the piano. Then i can sing up the scale until i get to the root note of the song i'm listening to.
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phogi
185 posts
Jan 16, 2010
3:27 AM
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I say just ask. I've been making music my whole life. I've known every major and minor key since inside and out since...geez, I don't even remember how long. I've studied music theory for years, I play more than a dozen instruments. Yet,
I ask.
Now, let's go to another scenario: you are playing with someone you just met, but not at a jam. Or, you have a friend that does not understand key. They don't know the key. Ask them to play the chord progression, and go through your harp in the position you want to play in.
I just thought of this: sing the root into a tuner? That would do it.
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The Happy Harper
37 posts
Jan 16, 2010
5:35 AM
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Is this crazy? Learn what notes are on your harps. then if the key is lowish grab a G or A (if it is high sounding grab a high harp..makes it a bit easier)and quietly play holes to yourself till you hit the right one. (you should find it pretty quickly if you play well enough to be playing with others) then you know your playing an A harp and the 1 draw note turns out to sound perfect, you know the song is in the key of B and can grab the harp you want for that key. Might take some time to figure out your harp's notes but will be helpful for your playing as well as finding the key. Of course if you can play chromatically on a diatonic then wouldn't it work to learn the notes on just the C harp and just noodle out the root, check which hole and then you know that note is the key.
Watch the guitarist, as folks have said is great too but sometimes they are capoed up and it is easier to find the key on the harp by ear than do the math of chord shape plus frets up..etc... then there are times you could be playing in a group without a guitar.
Last Edited by on Jan 16, 2010 5:46 AM
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Hobostubs Ashlock
340 posts
Jan 16, 2010
8:56 AM
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oh just grab whatever harp you like best and play if they dont like it screw em lol there lucky to have a harmonica player around anyway
Last Edited by on Jan 16, 2010 8:57 AM
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barbequebob
337 posts
Jan 16, 2010
9:35 AM
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Too many harp players tend to take the "blissful ignorance" route of not learning where each and every note available is on the instrument and it quickly will bite them in the butt whenever they start to play with other musicians and they give the instrument a bad reputatation because they don't take the time to learn it.
Learning the circle of 5ths, is basically also a step into learning basic music theory, and it IS important.
Most harp players wo know theory usually also play other instruments and not knowing theory while playing other instruments is a flat out BS excuse and I look at harp that way as well.
I also play guitar and watch where the hands are on the fretboard and the formations for different chords and also make sure I take into account the types of tuning being used, be it dropped or open chord tuning, etc.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Hobostubs Ashlock
342 posts
Jan 16, 2010
9:48 AM
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Lol i was just kidding trying to build up my harp player attitude so i can deal with premadona lead guitar players tonight if needed
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HarmonicaMick
12 posts
Jan 16, 2010
10:15 AM
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BBQBOB,
So far, I've found that a different approach to that which you're advocating in your first paragraph seems to work for me.
Like you, I play another instrument; I learnt classical piano for a number of years. I think the word 'classical' might be key to the problem I had with your suggested approach.
The trouble is with that discipline is that you tend to learn most things by rote, the upshot of which for me was that I can't improvise blues on a piano to save my life. Well, I can, but very badly.
When it came to harp, I tried to avoid note learning for fear of having the same problem, and, so far, my approach seems to be working for me. Of course, I know the notes, if I think about them. But, I try not to really think about them when I play on stage.
Instead, I tend to rely on the sounds and patterns I've learnt in the woodshed; I just 'know' most of the time what will sound OK with what the band is playing. It even works when I get roped into playing outside a 12 bar. Sometimes, silence is my best friend.
The analogy I often cite on here is the way that you can learn a language and its grammar without being able to name the parts of speech.
Without wishing to sound disrespectful of your professionalism, or not show due deference, I honestly think my approach has a lot to be said for it. Above, I mentioned language learning, and I suppose Michel Thomas' method would offer the best analogy to what I'm trying to describe.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
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Blackbird
130 posts
Jan 16, 2010
4:36 PM
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Day late and a dollar short - here are the two videos or topics (each had multiple videos dedicated to them) that I was mentioning helped me translate what key a song was in, or playing the harp along with music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KucxvQR0FXM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwztD2VuzSI
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oldwailer
1018 posts
Jan 16, 2010
5:25 PM
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BBQ has the right answer of course--I'm just too lazy to confront that one--I've learned and forgotten all that theory shit too many times.
Getting the right key is easy for me--I just listen and I can guess the key within a half step--two guesses and I'm usually there--if I have the right key harp in the first place.
It's the strange, non-12bar or 8bar standard stuff that can throw me for a loop--those ones where you are doing just great and then the band hangs there on the IV for a count of about 67--that's where an intensive review of the circle of fifths and that kind of theory would pay off big time for me--shit--here I am talking myself into it--how many times do I have to learn to spell BEADGCF again?
Let me see--where is that old theory cheat sheet??. . .
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