mlefree
591 posts
Feb 21, 2016
6:24 PM
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I'm not a guitar player but I play music with a lot of them in jam circles, open mic's and sitting in with bands.
Because I don't play I've never been able to recognize guitar chord fingerings on sight. This has been problematic for me when band leaders or jam circle players charge into a song without bothering to indicate what key the song will be in. It's both difficult and embarrassing to have to ask another musician what key the song is in when it's already underway. The only thing more embarrassing than that is starting to play in the ~wrong~ key. That's a “Harikari” situation for me (I'd rather die).
So I made up a two-sided laminated card that I call my “Jam Circle Survival Tool.” It has a color-coded Circle of Fifths on one side and a chart of guitar chords on the other. I made my own Co5 because I couldn't find one that I felt would be easy for me to see in dim lighting yet carry all the information I wanted. It's all pretty standard stuff but if anyone has a question or especially if anyone spots an error, please let me know. The guitar chord chart is nothing special other than it's bare-bones enough to show a lot of them in a small space.
Bear with me as I'm sharing high resolution pictures to preserve their integrity.
If you are interested in having copies, feel free to right click on the pictures and download them.
They've saved me on more than one occasion.
Michelle
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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Feb 21, 2016 6:31 PM
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STME58
1584 posts
Feb 21, 2016
6:42 PM
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Having those guitar cords can be really handy in the situation you describe. In jams with horns I can look over at the trumpet or trombone player to get the key because I know those "fingerings" but that is not many jams. My other fall backs are using a C harp to find the tonic then switching to the appropriate harp, or pulling a tuner out of my pocket and singing the tonic into it to get the key.
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Goldbrick
1327 posts
Feb 21, 2016
6:44 PM
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Interesting solution with the wheel
The chord diagrams need some work tho
As a guitar player- your B chord example is actually a B suspended as you have an E note showing on string 4. That chord should look like the A chord but with a bar across the 2nd fret from the 5th string
The B minor would normally have the 5th string 2nd fret covered to have a B in the bass
Your F7 is actually an F major 7 which is not a usual blues chord
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jpmcbride
110 posts
Feb 21, 2016
6:46 PM
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Michelle,
Don't feel bad about asking for the key. Its rude for anyone to start a song without calling the key when they know its a jam or open mic situation where there are likely to be people that don't play guitar, or even novice guitar players that may not recognize the chords.
I play bass (and a little basic guitar) and I sometimes struggle to figure out what chords are being played by watching guitar player's hands. Sometimes the fingerings are difficult to recognize.
When this happens, I always ask the key. Sometimes you just have to be forceful and make the point.
But in any case, learning to recognize chords from watching a guitar or bass player is a good skill to have - but not easy unless you play. There are a lot of barr chords and various forms that can be hard to pick up.
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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jpmcbride
111 posts
Feb 21, 2016
6:49 PM
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There are lots of other gotchas with keys too. A couple of my favorites ...
(1) The acoustic guitar player who uses a capo and doesn't understand what actual key he's playing in and calls it out wrong.
(2) The guitar player that tunes down a half step but doesn't take that into account when calling the key :-)
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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jpmcbride
112 posts
Feb 21, 2016
6:51 PM
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And then there's the old putting the capo on the wrong fret, or forgetting to move it between songs.
But my favorite is the guitar player that tells you what key harp you need instead of what key the song is in!
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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Goldbrick
1328 posts
Feb 21, 2016
7:11 PM
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Bass players play in more standardized positions ( usually) than guitarists
If you wanna watch for clues the bass player is a better bet
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mlefree
592 posts
Feb 22, 2016
8:10 AM
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Yup. Those are all good ones, jpmbride. Don'tchya wanna slap 'em upside da haid when dey do dat? I've experienced all of those for sure. But the worst one was when the song leader deliberately told me the wrong key hoping I'd embarrass myself. It backfired. Much as you suggest, I just stood there forcefully gesturing to him with a quizzical look pointing at my harp. That made it obvious to the crowd how rude this dude was for just starting up without calling the key. I had to restrain one of my friends from taking him out in the alley and throttling him.
Thanks for pointing out the problems with the chord chart, Goldbrick. They are a testament to my ignorance. I chose this chart over hundreds of others on the 'net for what I thought was a concise and fairly complete presentation, at least of the chords I run into. I could have gotten away with a much simpler chart given the fairly tight range I run into. How does an ingnoramus choose an accurate chart? You can see why I am seeking a good one.
I understand the subtleties that you point out in the different chord shapes in this chart. Do I need to get a different chart or would these chord diagrams suffice for choosing a particular key harp? I'm not trying to accurately name all these different chords, I just want to choose a harp for a particular song.
Good suggestion about the bass. But most of my playing is in acoustic situations with a bunch of guitars, fiddles and mandolins but no bass. And when I do play with a bass player, they are generally better band citizens than guitar players and will tell me the key when a guitar player won't.
Thanks,
Michelle
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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Feb 22, 2016 8:20 AM
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Grey Owl
574 posts
Feb 22, 2016
9:11 AM
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I like that Circle of fifths.
Sometimes these chord charts on the net are a bit weird. Here is a simple one showing a good selection of basic chords.
I don’t want to muddy the waters but the issue is sometimes confused in that some guitarists like to use the Barre version of the chords rather than the open string version.
Here is a chart of Barre Chords
You will see that on the top left chord, the barre holds down all 6 strings on the first fret. The thickest string is the chord note reference and this note is F. You can see from the chart if you move this whole Chord shape (F major in this instance) up one fret you will be playing F# major, third fret G major etc., and the same principal applies to the other chords shapes listed Minor, Dom 7 etc.,
You can also play Barre Chords using the 5th string as the chord reference note.
So on the lower diagrams the Barre holds down 5 strings and the fat string on fret 1 is Bb (A#) so the chord with the shape shown on the bottom left is Bb Major. Move up one fret with that shape and you have B major, third fret C major etc., and the same principal applies to the other chords listed Minor, Dom 7 etc.,
Hope this helps.
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DannyRanch
65 posts
Feb 22, 2016
9:27 AM
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I been to several Jam sessions by now, different venues and styles. Some good, some extremely really good, some bad.
At one time one guy, (metalhead dude) in a general rock jam session, afer I played with some fellas wanted to play some slow blues thing.
He did not even knew the key he was on playing, neither what a 12 bar blues was.
The bass player was pissed as hell, and I come to the bassman and asked the key.
Oh! this fella doesn't know it!
hahah..
I love when they also tell me the key of harp I need to use..
Just gimme the song key I will decide which harp to use fella haha
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Dr.Hoy
174 posts
Feb 22, 2016
12:03 PM
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Isn't not knowing the key the song is in a problem for the other musicians as well? Excepting the drummer, of course. Starting a song without telling the other musicians the key is inexcusable, IMO.
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barbequebob
3163 posts
Feb 22, 2016
12:36 PM
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As someone who also plays a bit of guitar myself, knowing those chord formations helps out a lot, especially if the one leading the band doesn't call out the keys or it's just too loud to hear it. When I gigged with the great Jimmy Rogers, he never called out the keys and just showed the chord formation with his fretting hand on the fingerboard of his guitar, and having played a bit of guitar often bailed me out when I didn't hear what key was called for.
Whenever a guitar player uses a capo, I take a look at what fret the capo is being placed and from watching the chord formation of his hands, I can tell the key. For example, if the capo is on the 3rd fret and he's using the chord formation you'd use for the key of E, then I know he's actually playing in the key of G. First guide to remember is that each fret represents 1/2 step.
When I gigged with Luther Guitar Junior Johnson, he often times wouldn't tell you what key he was in and just went right into it, but I noticed very quickly that he'd use certain intros in certain keys he was playing in and so learning to pay attention to his playing patterns (yes, you gotta be anal about the details) helped me to quickly adjust.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Dr.Hoy
175 posts
Feb 22, 2016
12:56 PM
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barbequebob: "When I gigged with the great Jimmy Rogers, he never called out the keys and just showed the chord formation with his fretting hand on the fingerboard of his guitar, and having played a bit of guitar often bailed me out when I didn't hear what key was called for."
In that situation what did the other musicians do to find the key?
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Grey Owl
575 posts
Feb 22, 2016
1:25 PM
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Or you could be at the mercy of someone like a mischeivous Bob Dylan according to this article by musician Jeff Tweedy.
In a new Esquire article examining the ongoing mystique of Bob Dylan, Wilco frontman Jeff Tweedy revealed what it was like to perform “The Weight” with the reclusive songwriting legend. Tweedy and My Morning Jacket frontman Jim James sang The Band classic with Dylan a handful of times during last year’s AmericanaramA tour.
“We played that song in a different key every night,” a bemused Tweedy reveals. “It was never in the same key. The tour manager would say, ‘It’s in A flat tonight.’ Or we’d already be out onstage, and we’d talk to Tony Garnier, the bass player, and somehow ask him which key and he’d say, ‘A flat.’ And that’s in front of a lot of people. But Dylan never told us. I think he likes putting himself and his band into a corner, to see if they can play their way out.”
YIKES!!
I remember reading somewhere once that the only clue a guitarist had when playing with Dylan was looking at the back of his hand on the fret board to gauge what chords he was playing!
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barbequebob
3164 posts
Feb 22, 2016
1:39 PM
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@Dr.Hoy -- Everybody in band all had played some guitar at some point, they did the same thing I did.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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dougharps
1172 posts
Feb 22, 2016
1:42 PM
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I am a guitar hack, but I can read a few simple chords. One guy I play with tunes down sometimes and often capos up... he really makes you think! I always ask if he is tuned to concert pitch, and if he says a song is in G, I ask, "The REAL G?"
If I am with people using many complex chords I cannot decode, I may ask the bass player.
One band that I play with a several times a year knows hundreds of songs and often changes the key they play a song in. They don't tell you. If I can't read the chords I look to the upright bass player and he flashes me hand signs, holding up fingers for the number of sharps or holding down fingers for the number of flats to give me the key.
The circle of fifths is our friend...
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Feb 22, 2016 3:54 PM
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Dr.Hoy
176 posts
Feb 22, 2016
1:49 PM
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@barbequebob - "Everybody in band all had played some guitar at some point, they did the same thing I did."
Wouldn't that mean everyone coming in at a different time in beginning of the song?
Last Edited by Dr.Hoy on Feb 22, 2016 1:50 PM
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Littoral
1370 posts
Feb 22, 2016
1:54 PM
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Boy, I recognize all of this. I try not to ask on stage and I especially don't want the hunt to be apparent to the audience. Usually I'll hum the pitch and I'm almost always within a 5th. Process of elimination is within 2 harps.
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barbequebob
3165 posts
Feb 22, 2016
1:54 PM
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@Dr.Hoy -- Jimmy did that before going into the tune. Luther just went into it but he had musicians who big ears that paid attention and would almost always come in at the right time, which is FAR different than what you see in any open jam.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Dr.Hoy
177 posts
Feb 22, 2016
2:38 PM
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Seems it would have been easier, and a lot tighter, to just tell the musicians what the next tune was or, even better, work from a set list so all he'd need do was count off the next song.
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Barley Nectar
1146 posts
Feb 22, 2016
3:13 PM
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I play no other instrument. I simply get on stage and say, "someone please give me the key". I feel no shame about this. Sometimes I get some good natured ribbing. On the rare occasion that I'm not told and cannot come up with the key in a few seconds, I get off the stage and listen. No biggy...BN
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Goldbrick
1329 posts
Feb 22, 2016
3:53 PM
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How do you know when a harp player is at your door ?
They never have the right key and dont know when to come in
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hvyj
2973 posts
Feb 22, 2016
7:20 PM
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In my experience, it is not all that rare for the bass player not to know what key he is playing in. This is because they often pick up the first note of the progression by ear and then just play a pattern without giving any thought to what key they are in. So, when asked for the key, they look at their hands on the fretboard and have to think about it for a minute. If there is a keyboard, and I am able to look at what the keyboard player is playing I can usually figure out the key.
TRUE STORY: I was playng a sideman gig last weekend and the band leader inexplicably was not calling keys and was not responding when asked which made everything unnecessarily more difficult than it should have been. I knew the key for some of the tunes and figured out most of the others. What finally put a stop to this hide and seek was when I laid out on a tune I was unfamiliar with and had no clue as to what key it was in. When the bandleader told me to take the solo, I looked at him and said very deliberately "I have no idea what key you are in" and continued to stare at him. He said Eb. I took my time getting out my Ab harp as he took the tune around again and when it got back to the top, I blew a solo that got very positive audience response. The bandleader called keys for the rest of the night. I have no idea wtf his problem was, but he is a monster musician with whom I get along well. Go figure...
Another impediment to getting the key is stage volume. I occasionally do sideman gigs with a very loud but very musical guitar player in a power trio who is high energy and funky and uses dynamics with unexpected rhythmic breaks and drops so you need to watch him all the time for cues. This guy often runs one tune into another and does all the singing so we might play at high tempo for 45 minutes straight or more without stopping. The performance gets pretty intense, and the guitar player/singer is literally too busy to call out keys. (In fact, I suspect I get this gig simply so I can take an extended solo every now and then to give him a break). Anyway, he assigns the bass player to tell me the key but sometimes stage volume is too loud to hear what key gets called. More adventure than I need in my life, but it's still a lot of fun. On my tombstone they may write "Just give me the key! "
Of course, if you throw a guitar player and a harmonica player off a cliff, the guitar player will always hit ground first because harmonica player will have to stop and ask about what key he is supposed be in.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 22, 2016 7:47 PM
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jpmcbride
113 posts
Feb 22, 2016
7:33 PM
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@dougharps
I know a guy that does the finger signals, that's a really old-school thing. Not many people know the circle of 5ths well enough to know how many sharps or flats in all 12 keys. I don't. A lot of times when the volume is an issue I've used finger signals making the shape of an E, A, or C with my fingers.
@hvyj
I've never seen that. In my experience bass players know whats going on better than anyone in the band, unless there's a keyboard player. Those guys always have it together musically.
Maybe I'm biased because I play bass, but when I', playing harp I always ask the bass player the key and the progression and they nearly always know.
One more thing...
At jams, if there is time after the leader calls the key, I'll ask about the chord progression or the groove. I often get a funny look that says "what do you care - you're a harp player?"
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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jpmcbride
114 posts
Feb 22, 2016
7:37 PM
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OK, the absolute worst. Has happened to me maybe 3 times in my jamming career.
Its always a girl. Says she sings and wants to do a song that no one knows and has no idea what key its in. She's attractive, so the jam leader can't say no and lets her up. I'm stuck on bass and trying to figure out what to do ...
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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hvyj
2974 posts
Feb 22, 2016
7:40 PM
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Yeah, the fingers up (sharps) and down (flats) is cool. If more people did it I'd get more disciplined about remembering key signatures.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 22, 2016 7:56 PM
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Goldbrick
1330 posts
Feb 22, 2016
7:47 PM
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Our band shorthand is to say " the peoples key of of A (or whatever)-Doesnt matter hand position , capo etc. Cause A is A period- not relative
That way I know they are in A - and I can grab a D harp
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STME58
1587 posts
Feb 22, 2016
7:53 PM
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If someone tells me how many sharps I use the mnemonic Fat Cats Go Down An Elevator Backwards, along with the knowledge that the name of the key is one letter above the last sharp. So 4 sharps would be F,C,G and D and the key would be E. Two sharps are F and C and the key is D.
Flats are a bit more complex they are added in the order BEADG which I remember as the word bead with a G on the end. One flat is the key of F after that the key is the next to the last flat added so 4 flats are B,E,A and D and the key is Ab. Two flats are B and E and the key is Bb.
Note that the letter patterns come right off the circle of fifths, sharps starting at F and going clockwise, flats starting at Bb and going counterclockwise.
It is slightly simpler that Captain Kirks game of Fizbin!
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mlefree
593 posts
Feb 23, 2016
2:48 AM
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Grey Owl, thanks for that chord chart and "the rest of the (guitar chord) story." I think those "simple" chords will cover the bases for me pretty well.
And those old-school fingers up or down hand signals are the reason for putting the number of accidentals in a key so I could start thinking of keys in therms of their key signatures.
One of my "Uh Oh" moments came when people goaded me into sitting in with a popular singer/guitar player here in town. She sounded OK but when I go to the stage and were getting ready for our first song together. All her songs were originals so I had nothing to go on but her word. She did not know the keys to any of her songs! So there I am, on stage with people in the crowd sitting there with looks of anticipation on their faces. Luckily I can figure out the key to a song in a few notes, so it went OK. But I was, and am, astonished that a gigging singer/songwriter has no clue what key she is writing a song in.
Steve, I appreciate those mnemonics. Mnemonics only go so far for me, though, because there are so many of them. That's why I try to keep the image of a Circle of Fifths in my mind's eye. When you have the Co5 with the kernel of information presented in mine above down pat, You don't need to stop and remember a particular mnemonic.
Also, because I'm very much a visually-oriented person I find it easier to memorize an image than a mnemonic. But by all means use anything that can help you be better wired in to what's happening on stage or in a circle.
Thanks All,
Michelle
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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Feb 23, 2016 2:51 AM
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STME58
1589 posts
Feb 23, 2016
6:45 AM
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Michelle, one of the reasons complex topics hold our interest is that there are so many way to approach them and so many different details to learn that contribute to our understanding. I learned music off a page and could not play "by Ear" until I learned the harmonica, so my approach is different from someone who picked up tunes by listening to them on recordings.
You are technical enough you might appreciate the thread I started on how to derived the circle of fifths from the keyboard.
post
Of course you are technical enough you may have already discovered this. I had fun and gained insight by doing it. I was surprised how similar it seemed to doing a geometry proof.
Last Edited by STME58 on Feb 23, 2016 6:47 AM
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snowman
151 posts
Feb 23, 2016
7:17 AM
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I play guitar, with a rack or without a rack--even so you like to know whats goin on-
I ask the guy calling the songs " what are the one and four chords
If Am and Dm I know the song is more in a minor feel- for me thats a nat minor harp ,but more common is 3rd pos
If Cm7 to F9 Th one is minor ,but the four is major basically-- I usually play straight cross harp using an F harp---being careful to avoid a straight 3 draw and or a straight 7 draw-- Most of my seven draws are tuned a 1/2 step down, so I don't worry about that one--
It also gives the leader, the idea that maybe u understand 145 etc and gives u a better chance at a lead
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dougharps
1173 posts
Feb 23, 2016
7:51 AM
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I learned the circle of fifths by arranging my harps in that order. After a while I just knew it from taking out harps and replacing them. I think this is the easiest way to learn it.
Since I knew of several modes I could play on any harp, and if you look at them in that order, it became easy to narrow down which positions on which harps might best work with any given song. Sometimes I may choose to use two different harps in a song, just for variety.
The number of sharps or flats is easy, once you know the circle. Just count clockwise from C for sharps or counter clockwise from C for flats. I don't actually make a circle of harps, just put them in that order.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Feb 23, 2016 7:54 AM
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mlefree
594 posts
Feb 23, 2016
1:40 PM
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Steve, unfortunately I'm brain-dead when it comes to keyboards. I know I need to correct that. I want a melodica to help correct that.
Thanks,
Michelle
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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
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STME58
1590 posts
Feb 23, 2016
2:47 PM
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Michelle, I can't play a keyboard much at all, but I have learned to extract the wealth of information about western scales that is contained in the keyboard. That is what the other thread is about.
I have also learned enough about the keyboard to be able to tell what key is being played by just watching for a while. The exercise I present in the thread helps with that too.
Last Edited by STME58 on Feb 23, 2016 4:59 PM
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