I'm looking to get the modern Sugar Blue tone. Think to "She", "leap service and lies", "love's sweet secrets" or "in your eyes". I don't go crazy for this sound but I have to say which is a distinctive stuff of Sugar Blue. This sound is a kind of "synthy" with overdriven edges, very pushed in songs like "She" or more soft in song like "leap service and lies", but that is.
I'm trying via PA using a little touch of harp break lw, harp octave lw and a lot of compression but this is not the correct way.
Someone has some suggestion to get out this sound?
Someone posted an audio file on here a long time ago that nailed the tones from that particular album...which I think included a detuning effect. I think he used a POD or something?
I would think that much of his sound in studio from that period would be hard to replicate live (feedback).
His live stuff sounded different from that...so does the more recent stuff. That has more of a cleanish Mesa Boogie sound rather than the heavily distorted/compressed sound. ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog
I tried to find that post by searching the forum with no luck. I swear it was on this board that I heard it. And I was pretty sure a Line 6 pedal and some level of pitch shift/detuning was a part of the formula. ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog
I heard Blue playing using a Mesa boogie amp and a bunch of pedals. Had tech problems in the middle of the concert and switched to the PA and an SM58 and sounded way better in my opinion. He has a great tone to start with. ----------
I'm pretty sure the detuning pedal used here and there on IN YOUR EYES is a Whammy. As far as tone is concerned you can closely mimic the timbre of many SB sounds with a TC Electronics Vortex Flanger. This is not what SB used, but it will definitely do the job. You just have to fiddle with the knobs to dial it in.
To mimic the tone on SHE, I would use a J Rockett BLUE NOTE TOUR pedal in front of the Vortex to provide a little bit of dirt. Again you need to fiddle with the knobs to dial it in. (Both the Vortex and the Blue Note have 4 knobs).
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 01, 2018 10:03 AM
I have a lot of effects, I have to find the time to make a session of tests. Vortex is in my zoom pedal, I don't know the blue note j rockett pedal. But is difficult for me because I did not think I need flanger and detuner for this sound...I can't hear a substantial pitch alteration but maybe the tuning of parameters is very sneaky.
I don't think you can do it effectively with a Harp Break. The HB is very gainy and will cause the flanger to feed back. The HB creates a much harsher sound than the BN which is relatively subtle, but nicely textured if dialed in correctly. The BN is a really nice pedal, IMHO.
I have a Harp Break but I don't use it. I find it to be very harsh and it doesn't play nice with other pedals (like, for example, the Vortex). I think most of the Lone Wolf stuff is designed to recreate that old time dirty "Chicago" sound. But that's not the sound SB gets. One needs to use the right tools for the right job, IMHO.
I've seen SB quite a few times. He plays through a Mesa Boogie Mark. In the old days, he used to go through a rack mounted Alessis QuadraVerb and a rack mounted preamp that were between his mic and the amp. According to SB's guitar player, that rig got stolen. Now he goes direct into the Mesa Boogie. He has always used a wireless rig on his mic whenever I've seen him play, and most wireless rigs create a little compression which favorably affects tone. But SB's live tone is not like his tone on the earlier recordings.
You are correct, you do not need a Whammy or other detune pedal to capture SB's tone. However, on the older studio recordings, SB used flange quite a bit. Many people think of flange as some sort of jet plane sound, but that's only one of many things you can do with a decent flanger. I use my Vortex quite a bit. I often get compliments or questions about the sound I get, but no one ever guesses that I'm using a flanger.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 01, 2018 11:23 AM
hvyj, thanks for your suggestion about HB. I'll see what I can do.
Looking at this video of christelle berthon I found similarities on sound...a "trumpet" like sound with some distorsion to get edgy saturation...this is not the same but sounds in this way for me, what do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyz1NxMb8tk
This video open a good argument about compressor for me but this is another story...But the first test I have to do is to put the compressor in front of distorsion section and push the distorsion section with high volume from the compressor...I have the lw flat cat...
As I can see in the berthon video, the compressor is setted with the volume as max and compression pretty lower. So, the compressor act as "booster" for the distorsion section and you can see that because the HB light the distorsion led ever and ever even if she doesen't play loud. This cause a "continuity distorsion" which feed the octave that compress and gritty the sound itself (this pedal also has very high parameters also, volume at max and blend and 1:00 which normally cause a very high distorsion).
Last Edited by Dox on Mar 01, 2018 11:29 AM
What Christelle is doing is more influenced by the parametric EQ and Sonic Stomp than compression although compression is part of it. The Fireball mic is very clean. If she were using,say, a 545 she could probably take the Harp Break and Harp Octave out of the chain and get a similar timbre without compression.
Personally, I use the Blue Note Tour almost always on for texture--or "continuity distortion" as you call it.You make very astute observations about Christelle's settings. IMHO, if she were using a different mic she could probably get more or less the same tone and timbre with fewer pedals.
Parametric EQ is great for tone shaping. I used to play through a bass amp that had parametric EQ. I've never used a sonic stomp, but I've played with other musicians who have and they all loved it. As I understand it, the SS time aligns the signal which gives the timbre more definition, fullness, depth and punch.
Compression can be very cool but you have to be careful with it. Once upon a time I used to use a QuadraVerb GT (a guitar specific model of the QV that didn't sound very good for guitar but was GREAT for harp) which had a built in compressor which sounded terrific. Then I tried the BBE Optical Compressor that Christelle has. The problem was that if you didn't have it dialed in exactly right you would lose dynamics. And, of course each room is different, so when I was trying to gig with the BBE I'd find myself spending A LOT of time trying to get it adjusted right--more trouble than it was worth, so I sold it.
BUT, you make an excellent point: using compression in combination with distortion can sound terrific as it can make the distortion more controllable and the distorted tone "tighter", more articulate and more musical. Not really my thing, but I've fooled around with it enough to know it can work extremely well.
BUT, not all compressors are harp friendly. I have no experience with Flat Cat. It looks interesting, though, because it has so few controls--less adjustments that you need to worry about in a live performance situation.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 01, 2018 12:10 PM
I have the fireball me too, but usually I prefer to use the shaker dynamic or the shaker mad dog. I have the sonic stomp also and the para eq from the zoom ms50: maybe the G5 has some different eq but in the ms50 there is the parametric eq which can be stacked until 12 bands. I have a programmable eq sourceaudio also but I don't use it now, maybe I need to reintroduce it in my pedalboard.
The flat cat is bassically similar to the BBE OptoComp because they are both optical, same controls, I think will be the same...
But, what about flanger setup for harp? :D
Last Edited by Dox on Mar 01, 2018 12:12 PM
Ok, I set the toggle switch of the Vortex on "flanger",turn the "delay" knob all the way to the left (off) and leave the "speed" "depth" and "feedback" controls at noon. Gives me a nice sound.
My chain is Blue Note>TC Helix Phaser>MicroPOG>Strymon Lex>Vortex Flanger>MXR carbon copy>Xotic EP BOOST (always on preamp). With the above flanger setting if I engage the Lex, with or without the MicroPOG, the "organ" sounds distant or far way which can sound very cool on certain material.
If I put the Lex on low speed and engage the flanger at the above setting I don't hear any rotation, but I can get incredible "cut" that allows me to be heard over very loud guitars when I need it.
On PARIS SESSIONS Sugar Blue plays DON'T START ME TALKIN' (the Sonny Boy Williamson tune) where he gets a cool sound which "splatters" when he hits a deep low end bend. If I fool with the 4 control knobs I can replicate that sound exactly, but i do forget the exact setting that requires.
I can get quite a few other interesting sounds, but i pretty much stick with my basic 3 knobs at noon the delay knob off because I like how that sounds on a variety of material. It is a very contemporary or "modern" sound.
Btw, I use the phaser for a tube compression/distortion sound, not jet planes. Again, it's all in how you set the controls: Toggle set to "smooth," speed and feedback all the way to the left (off) depth all the way up to the max, level past 1 o'clock and adjusted to avoid feedback. CAVEAT: If I engage both the phaser and flanger at the same time I will get feedback!
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 01, 2018 1:21 PM
Sorry I don't have better live examples, but I haven't been playing out much, and when I do, it is usually acoustic. ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog
I made some test today but I'm not happy yet. I'm rebuilding my pedalboard...the empty slot is for a strymon bluesky or tc electronic hall of fame 2 that I'm trying. In this picture there is the current configuration for SB sound but as I said I'm not happy yet. This is not bad but that's not what I'm looking for. The lw octave help a lot to obtain the grit edges but is a bit "boomy" and I'm lack the "synth flute" sound...hummm...I have to try to move the compressor between the HB and the Octave. I've not tried yet the flanger on zoom. However, with these pedals I have a solid clean sound, a nice organ sound (using the pitch fork pedal and the rotary on zoom), nifty wah sound and good chicago. I want to get out a kind of SB sound, "trumpet-like" and I'll be happy.
I'm planning to get the Rockett Blue Note but is a little expensive to do a test...maybe I'll resell it if doesn't works for me. However I'm curious to try it, I never tried a different OD than the HB...
https://s10.postimg.org/lz8j4q20p/Camera_ZOOM-20180302221909704.jpg
Last Edited by Dox on Mar 02, 2018 5:18 PM
Not yet. I just listened to a mix of a CD a musician I work with recorded. I overdubbed short harp solos on 3 tunes and I think the BN was on for all of them, but it doesn't really stand out. The CD is not available yet so I don't have a copy. One of the solos prominently features the Vortex flanger and is very representative of the sound I get with my usual setting.
Btw, I was rehearsing today for a duo gig with this black chick who sings and plays piano. Anyway I was using my Vortex fllanger and yeah it will definitely give you that synthy sound you are after if you tightly cup the mic. I was using a Shure 545 Ultimate .
FWIW, I highly recommend the Blue Note Tour. It's very different from the Harp Break. Much more subtle. It creates texture rather than distortion. Of course, it has 4 control knobs so you have to spend some time experimenting to get it dialed in right. I leave mine on almost all the time. If you are willing to devote the necessary time and effort to dialing it in, I am certain you would find it useful.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 03, 2018 2:31 PM
I made a mistake. The tune on which SB uses a flanger and the tone "splatters" on low end bends is COLD BLOODED MAN, not DON'T START ME TALKIN'. This is the original, not the cover on Code Blue.
On DON'T START ME TALKIN', SB could be using a flanger, but it may be a phaser. But on COLD BLOODED MAN it's definitely a flanger.
Btw, I was rehearsing again with the black chick who sings and plays piano and I decided to use the octave divider (MicroPOG) into the Vortex flanger on CHAIN OF FOOLS. It sounded way cool--but definitely very contemporary.
One of the things I like about my pedal board set up is I can layer effects in different combinations and get different sounds. Plus, the effects pedals I'm using respond to technique, so they are not just sound effects--I can play them as if they were different instruments. It's fun, and so long as I am careful and don't allow myself to get carried away it goes over pretty well.
TRUE STORY: My band had started playing HEROES (the Bowie tune). One night our regular guitar player couldn't make the gig and we were playing with a substitute guitar player who was really good. We start to play HEROES and whether he didn't know the tune, had forgotten it, or for whatever reason, he was not playing that signature Robert Fripp guitar lick that permeates the original and sort of defines the tune. I knew the lick because I like the tune and had been fooling around with it for a while playing along with the recording at home. So, I kick on my flanger and play the guitar part all the way through the song and it worked very well. Because the lick requires so much sustain, it may actually be easier to play it on harp than on guitar, and the flanger gave me the right timbre and sufficient cut to pull it off.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 07, 2018 2:44 PM
Hvyj, Can you explain why you use the EP booster at the end of the chain? Have you tried to use it as first pedal to push blue note or others pedals? Thanks, bye
Last Edited by Dox on Mar 08, 2018 3:59 AM
@Dox: Excellent question! Keep in mind that besides the obvious, the EP Booster does a couple of other things: It converts the the signal to low impedance (unbalanced) and it reverses the signal's phase. The most recent additions to my board were the TC Electronics Helix Phaser and the JRockett Blue Note Tour. A big part of what I do is use my pedals in different combinations with one another. Most of the pedals on my board are modulation based effects (in fact, everything except the MicroPOG and the Blue Note).
When I had the EP on the front end or in other positions besides last, the other pedals were not playing nice with one another. Gain would not remain even when certain pedals were engaged or disengaged and the timbre of the "organ" (Lex with MP) wasn't sounding right. And when I put the EP right before the CC Delay the delay was driving too hard which made me feedback prone. So one day, just for the hell of it, I put the EP at the end of the chain and WOW! everything smoothed out--gain was even across the board even when I layered pedals and and everything had a nice rich slightly textured tone. Very consistent and full sounding. I had the EP's internal dip switches set to +db OFF and bright OFF. The external gain knob was all the way down to the left. So now I keep it at the end of the chain with those settings as an almost always on preamp.
In retrospect, I think what was going on was because I have so many modulation based effects, the way the EP reverses phase was interfering with how the other pedals were interacting. By putting the EP at the very end of the chain, the phase reversal operates to blend and smooth out the final signal which doesn't mess with how the other pedals interact with one another. It aggregates the signal from all the effects that are engaged and sends the combined signal to the amp at low impedance (although I am uncertain what effect the impedance alteration had on tone, if any, when the EP was not at the end of the chain). It really sounds great--sort of like what other people tell me a Sonic Stomp does for them.
I keep the EP on almost all the time. It does heat up the signal, so if the acoustics of the venue or the need to play at high volume is putting me close to feedback threshold, I sometimes disengage the EP to cool out the signal being sent to the amp so it is less gainy and not as likely to feedback. Some of the promo material for the EP Booster describes it as a "tone polisher" and that's pretty much what it does for me at the end of my pedal chain.
BTW, I saw your post in a different thread explaining that you use the term "saturation" to mean slight distortion that is subtle and can be compared to tube (valve) distortion from an amp. That's exactly what i get from the Blue Note Tour and the texture or distortion it provides is somewhat responsive to how hard I am playing. It's a very warm and subtle but dynamic texture that sounds great (assuming you've taken the time and trouble to get the pedal dialed in). I use my Blue Note with my Peavey Delta Blues 1x15 and my Fender Super Reverb 4x10 and I really like it. But it does not get along well with my Fender Princeton Reverb RI. With that amp I use an MXR Custom Shop Microamp--which is like the regular MXR Microamp pedal except it is true bypass and has bass and treble tone controls.
Except for the Audix, I am not very familiar with the mics you are using. I use a Shure 545 Ultimate or an EV PL35, both of which have VERY strong proximity effect, so I can vary timbre quite a bit by varying my grip on the mic and my pedals respond to/interact with that. Now, the conventional wisdom is that very clean mics that do not have strong proximity effect process well, and they do because they don't interact with the effects. In this regard, an Audix Fireball with a very dirty amp or Lone Wolf dirt boxes, for example, can sound pretty good because the Fireball moderates the distortion and so can create a nice balance and improved articulation. But what you get is not easy to vary very much except by engaging and disengaging effects (and, of course, also by altering volume and, to a certain extent, how tight you cup the mic). With mics that have strong proximity effect, if you know what you are doing with mic gripping technique you can dramatically vary the sound you get from your pedals if you are playing through pedals that interact with technique and are not just sound effects. IMHO a volume control on the mic is also very helpful, especially if you are playing through a tube amp. Anyway, this is what has worked for me. YMMV.
TRUE STORY: When I bought my Blue Note Tour to add to my set up, my Pedaltrain Metro 20 was just too cramped so I got a Metro 24, which is fine. But I had an extra 9v power connector on my OneSpot harness and now I had a little extra space on my new board. So... I bought a TC Flashback Mini Delay and put it after and next to my Carbon Copy close enough to one another so I can turn one of them off and the other on simultaneously. I set the Flashback to multiple repeats so I can get all spacey if i want to, without having to turn knobs on my other delay. I don't use it very often, but it's fun when I do and it's nice to have. It also sounds different than the CC even when it's not set for spaced out multiple repeats. MORAL OF THE STORY: It's a law of the cosmos (much like the law of gravity or the law of supply and demand) that if you have an open space on your pedal board and an unused power supply connection it's only a matter of time before you find some reason to fill in that space.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 08, 2018 12:59 PM
@1847: There are some YouTube vids of Sugar Blue playing with Willie Dixon and SB is using a green bullet. But he's never used a GB any of the half dozen or so times I've seen him play.
SB always has a volume control on his mic. He uses it the same way Paul Butterfield used the on/off switch on his 545. Whenever SB stops playing during a song he rolls the volume off just like PB would turn off the switch on his 545 when he would stop playing. Then when they would start to play again they would turn the mic back up (SB) or on (PB).
@Dox: I am confident you will like it, so long as you spend the time to get it dialed in. The settings are not particularly intuitive and it took me a while to get the parameters set up right. But once you do, it's awesome. Not in your face awesome--more subtle than that, but very cool.
Well, my baseline settings are volume and gain each at noon; tone at 9 o'clock and fat at 3 o'clock , but I may tweak slightly from there depending on performance conditions. But your mic, pedal chain and amp my require different settings to get the sound you want from the BN. Everything interacts with everything else.
@1847 I thought the same. @Dox are you using the Vox MV50 Clean that we talked about a few threads ago? @hvji Great contribution(as usual) to the forum
@Dox: I played at another rehearsal today and because you were asking me about it, I paid particular attention to my Blue Note Tour. You know, at the settings I am using, I don't necessarily hear it when it's on. But if I turn it off my sound is not as good and I really miss it. Turn it back on and I sound good again. I guess that's the essence of subtle. But the BN can be set for greater and more audible drive/distortion than I use it for. Let us know what you think of it.
Tested at home tonight! Your last description is right! Right now he did not enable me to get the SB sound but I think will be an important part of this sound. Blending BN, Harp octave, eq, compression, reverb and BBE max I have a sound close to SB but I miss something else or in pedals or in the configuration...or the mic!! Tonight I've used the blowmeaway ultimate 57. Better than shaker diynamics for this sound.
Last Edited by Dox on Mar 10, 2018 4:39 PM
hvyj, which setting did you use for internal switches of EP booster? And....in some older post you used to set the EP before the delay...why have you decided to switch it in last position?
Last Edited by Dox on Mar 12, 2018 2:35 PM
Dox, I gave you detailed answers to both questions earlier in this thread. But I set the internal BRIGHT switch to off and the internal +DB switch to off. For the reasons I explained above, the EP was interfering with how the modulation based pedals were interacting with one another and with the other pedals on my board. I think this is because the EP reverses phase and because so many of my other pedals are modulation based effects. This is why I decided to move the EP to last in chain. I put it after the delay because when it was immediately before the delay it was pushing the delay too hard which sounded a little overbearing and made me more likely to feedback. Check my earlier post in this thread that starts with the words "Excellent question!" for more detail.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 12, 2018 5:33 PM
Sugar Blue uses a Mesa Boogie Mark 2. Bass amp but I'm not sure if it is a Mark 1. or 2. and I don't know what year it is. I tried looking up a photo of his amp but it is not coming up. He uses a Hohner Blues Blaster Bullet Mic but it has the Shure element in it. He has an older JT 30 Bullet Mic I have seen him playing in a video. I have seen him play a Shure Bullet Mic. He mostly plays the Hohner Blues Blaster Mic. Sugar Blue said in an interview he played with stomp boxes as he called it. Sugar Blue does not use them anymore and he just wanted to get back to playing the Harmonica. He used different foot pedals like distortion compression and I'm sure he used the Boss DD3 foot pedal as most Harmonica players do. Overdrive and octave. I don't know if one of his amp knobs has a gain knob or not. I know he uses a lot of gain but I don't know what number Sugar Blue has it set to or if it is a foot pedal. Sugar Blue practices all the time. Sugar Blue is one of the most intense and badest Harmonica players on the planet besides William Clarke who is a monster player but two different styles. I have seen some Harmonica players on YouTube who have played some of his songs but how many they know I'm not sure. One guy played a part of Love Sweet Secrets but not the whole song. One guy played That's Alright and one guy played the start to Gucci Gucci Man. I can play some of his songs off the In Your Eyes CD, like Bottom Line, She, Bluepine, Lip Service And Lies, Listen, Baby. I'm still trying to figure out In Your Eyes to name some. It is hard to play the Chromatic with the Hohner Blues Blaster Bullet Mic. I'm sure he uses the Vocal Mic and walks up to it in the studio. I'm still trying to get the techniques down that he uses for that song. They don't have a video showing you how to make it sound like two Harmonicas are working together at once as Sugar Blue can do and how he does octaves the tongue slap/tongue flutter/tremalo. It is not often but Sugar Blue will use monster techniques. Sugar Blue is known as the Jimi Hendrix of Harmonica. As Horn player Arturo Sandoval said in his Workshop video to be great first sound then articulation then sound articulation sound and do it 100 times. That is what it takes to master Sugar Blues techniques and his sound. He has a lot of power in his playing. I have not seen anyone cover Sugar Blues songs live. I think songs like Gucci Gucci Man, Lip, Service And Lies Whirlwind, Bottom, Line Love Sweet Secrets should be played at gigs. I never see Sugar Blue playing at the Harmonica Blowouts that Mark Hummel has. It would be cool to see him play there. To get his sound down you have to master the foot pedals on how he uses them. There is a lot of practice time and money buying effects pedals to sound like him.
