Nacoran opines: "I think it's worth noting that when it comes to bends there seems to be more than one way to skin the cat. I think there was a discussion fairly recently about whether you use your tongue to bend in which I tried to get some clarification on that. I can absolutely do bends with the part of my tongue that is in my mouth, but I also do something down farther in my throat, as a completely different technique, that gets bends too. I know the tongue goes down the throat fairly far, but honestly that far down my throat I can't tell if it's my tongue or my vocal cords or what exactly is doing the moving."
So, student Nacoran...imagine you've come to The Iceman for a lesson on bending - the teacher whose philosophy is that there is only 1 totally efficient way to skin a cat.
Here is what I suggest:
Recognize "target spots" using the roof of the mouth to which you aim that upwards curve in the bending of your tongue....start with "T" "D" "K", which is a great introduction to this concept, as your tongue does bend and touch distinct places on the roof of the mouth.
Next, notice a "Guh" spot - tongue still touching roof of mouth, but now bordering on the area that starts to curve down into what many consider back of the throat. See how the target points are moving back and downwards now?
Finally, to that Jewish "Cha", which is like when you are trying to move phlegm from the back of the throat upwards.
The "Cha" (not pronounced like "cha - cha" - the dance, but with that hard "Ch" sound) is even further back.
Target spots start at the front and move back towards down the throat...these are awareness spatial points towards which you "aim" that curvy lump you create with your tongue, which is easy to slide forward and back (tongue being this amazing acrobatic muscle!).
Some of the deep bends do have to use the further back target points - which are at the back of the throat in that area that Nacoran is "cloudy" about. However, it is the AIMING of the tongue lump that is key - not the actual place in the back of the throat that you may be thinking about.
So, best way to skin the bending technique cat is to understand the role the tongue plays - not the area of the throat to which you aim it (IMO at least).
The final evidence that occurred to me is that these bends exist in this fashion whether you surround the concept with a pre-yawn opening of the throat attitude or narrow that throat to give you a more pinched or less resonant chamber, thereby removing the "throat" from the bending equation completely.
This approach is what has proven to be so effective in teaching a rank beginner to totally bend to correct pitch within a week or two of learning. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on May 06, 2018 8:27 AM
It's not just the deep bends that I use the back of my throat for though and I can get bends without moving my tongue in my mouth (or at least not moving it in the way that I would move it if I were bending it with what I guess, for lack of a better word, I'd call forward tongue bending. What I'd really like to see is some real time imaging of the different techniques.
Bent notes on the blues harmonica are like fingerprints ; after a certain point, instruction is pointless to anyone actually committed to getting good and unique on the instrument. With all the available instruction these days via the retching sewer pipe known as the internet, I rather appreciate the fact that I've learned without a single formal lesson. Harmonica players are sounding much too much like one another, competent in technique and execution, but lacking in personality or style otherwise. ---------- www.ted-burke.com
Nacoran: would like to see evidence of bending without moving the tongue - although, I'd venture an educated guess that what you "think" is the throat is actually the tongue (which does extend down into the throat).
ted: we are discussing pure bending technique here. I understand your position that instruction is pointless to you, but even those committed to getting good and unique on the instrument would benefit from interacting with someone that teaches those skills as well. I'm experienced in teaching many aspects including improv, developing a personal sound, stage presence and other pretty cool aspects. What I've found is that most who lack the skills you espouse to uniqueness resist even a suggestion that they can learn what they lack from a teacher. Once again, I'm a fan of finding the shortest path up to the mountain top. Doing it all by yourself will eventually get you up there, but does take longer... ---------- The Iceman
Iceman, I'd really like to see a video of you and a student engaging while they negotiate the stages of your description. I would think the results are often like you say. As carefully articulated the description is I'd also suspect that beginners get very little out of reading it without the direct experience. A video, with a student, could substantial support the translation.
Littoral....would like that, but I, myself, don't have the video capabilities and am pretty tech illiterate when it comes to this sort of thing.
There is a visual that goes along with the description - have done it on a blackboard in front of a seminar in the past and when one-on-one, do it on a pad of paper.
The look on the face of the student is priceless when he instigates his first bend, too!
Remember, it's not force, but finesse that is the way to "enlightenment". ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on May 06, 2018 6:22 PM
A decent phone can do it these days. This next bit is a little radical: I'm pretty fanatical about how people learn and have found through years of leading professional development sessions with teachers is that the most many can conceive in terms of technique is delivery. If they can just explain it better then then student will "get it". It's is incredibly difficult for teachers to listen and prioritize student centered learning. I find it difficult too and much of my research is in how to help teachers figure it out. All the descriptions, diagrams and analogies ultimately have to be created by the student for the content to REALLY be learned.
I actually sent Iceman's description to a young Polish harp fan who's fallen into a bunch of us older harp players in Oz. She calls us her uncles. She said she found it very useful. I will check out her technique the next time I see her. I am personally trying to think of the roof spots and how my tongue acts or arcs when I am bending, both lipping and tongue blocking.
I see your points is well, Larry, but if you're going to quote me, quote me correctly. I never said instruction was pointless. I did not even imply it.kY5 Merely said that with the influx of so much instruction via the Internet we have many newer harmonica players who sound pretty much the same. Given that, I am grateful that I learned the way I did, self-taught, without formal instruction.
---------- www.ted-burke.com
Last Edited by ted burke on May 11, 2018 10:10 PM
Iceman, thank you for your description, tried it for but a few minutes & can see improvement, it's giving me a push to put more practice time on my plate.
Like I said, it's not a part of my throat that I can confirm or deny is part of my tongue. (And I made that point from the start). It is clearly a different part of my tongue than what is in my mouth if it is in fact part of my tongue. That's one of the funny things about the human body- referred sensation. I once hurt my back. I was trying to do a party trick where you stand just at arms length from the wall, then you rub your forearms and you reach for the wall again and find your arms aren't long enough. It works best if you loosen up first so I went to crack my knuckles and stretch my arms and my back made a popping noise and there was a sharp pain maybe a third of the way down my back. I was sore for quite a while. I had a couple doctor's appointments relating to it and then my doctor told me he thought it was acid reflux... which seemed awfully weird for a stretching injury with sudden pain. It turns out though that acid reflux cause cause referred pain about a third of the way down your back and prevacid took care of the problem. It seems that while I obviously had a back injury to start with as that was healing I also developing an acid reflux problem that happened to have a nearly identical symptom.
There is a sociological study where they show members of different cultures cards with different colors on them. Some languages have words for certain colors but not others. One group didn't have a word for pink, so they counted red and pink cards as the same color. If you set a red card and a pink card next to each other they could tell you which one was darker, but it didn't occur to them to count them separately for it because to them it was all red.
So that's what my question was about. I hadn't seen anyone talking about different mouth movements people use to get bends (I think maybe the original post that got me thinking about it was from Michael Rubin talking about blow bends using U-blocks. I don't U-block much, but I blow bend all the time... not with the U-block though. I usually agree with what Michael says but he seemed a little bit dogmatic about the U-block part of it. (Not a lot, but a bit). I think a lot of harmonica technique is adjustable. One person may do it one way, another another. We've gotten the discussion out in the open about lip pursing vs. tongue blocking, and even gotten lip blocking described as something different from lip pursing, and there was a lot of debate when I first suggested that I often play with several holes exposed to my open mouth but shape the air column with sort of a U shape in the back- not the front- of my tongue. It wasn't until some other players actually tried it and were able to do it that people started to accept that it was even possible.
So, I guess what I'm looking for is the word for pink, as it were. I think there are valuable differences in the way you can approach a bend but we don't really talk about it because we don't have the language and words to do it. Once we get that sussed out and get everyone on the same page we can decide if we like red or pink. I can get bends with just the forward part of my tongue or just the throat part of my tongue (or whatever... like I said about referred sensation, it doesn't feel like my tongue. I'd love to see imaging of it. And to be clear, I'm not talking about the back of my throat either. Actually, what I'm moving feels more like my larynx. When I sing a low note that's where I'm feeling the sensation, and the movement is similar to what you do when you try to get that note that is just a little bit lower than what you normally sing.
Narcoran, I if you watch all the videos, I explain how to pucker and tongue block as well. You might have caught the U block video. However, I do believe that U blocking creates the best and easiest high note sounds, so perhaps you are right. That's just for me though. But I have seen many students who go through the trouble of learning it and ultimately agree with me.
I definitely believe everyone is different and honestly, I don't care how you do it as long as you like the way you sound. That's one of my main goals, to help others like their own music.
So, my student Nacoran is having difficulty referencing what is going on inside his mouth. (Interesting that we live inside this body, but so often don't have a clue as to what is going on and what we are doing!). This tongue situation IS a "what is pink?" scenario and another clue Nacoran offers is "I'd like to see a real time image", so right now he is visually oriented.
So, first let's deal with the real time image....watching a video of what the tongue is doing and then trying to recreate it in your own mouth is one step removed from approaching it inside yourself. (Similar to watching a pitch meter to tell yourself when you've bent to correct pitch). So, let's try a different tact and help Nacoran discover tongue placement by self determination.
The target spots on the roof of the mouth are easily understood. Perhaps it is the "moving that lump in the tongue forward and back" that needs attention.
Let's start with the "th" sound one gets when one thinks of a lisp and creates that sound of the word lisp as if you have one....kinda like "lithp". Notice where the tongue is positioned - tip resting gently on back of upper front teeth.
Now, move from that "th" spot to "sssss". Tongue starts to create that bend/lump near the front, just behind the tip.
Next is "eeee". Moving back and forth from "ssss" to "eeee" will give you the feel of moving that lump slightly, like a "rocking" feeling.
Follow that with slowly moving towards "o". The space between "eeee" and "o" is a bit longer than from "ssss" to "eeee", but hopefully you will start to understand that you are moving that curve in the tongue back and forth now to create these sounds.
The final spot can be felt by using an area much further back on the tongue to rub against the top part of the throat - as if you are scratching an itch there with your tongue.
This is the full range of tongue movement needed to achieve all your bends.
The last task is to now turn your awareness to that full range of motion while you gently inhale, from front to back and how your tongue is able to roll that lump and place it anywhere you wish consciously.
This is what you see when you look at an imaging film, but now you have direct awareness of how to control that movement.
If you place your attention on this task and link it with aiming that curve/lump towards those specific target spots on the roof of your mouth, you are on your way to creating all your bends to correct pitch.
Now you can mentally and physically "unbundle" your tongue from throat muscles, as the throat may be separately held open in that "pre-yawn attitude" to give you greater resonance.
Teaching this to a rank beginner is easy. Teaching it to someone who has played for a while and developed habits that are not the most efficient is harder, as you have to unlearn all those unconscious movements and create a new path in your brain, so, in a way, you have two tasks at hand - one is unlearning and the other is creating a new groove in your brain with a more efficient and controllable outcome.
It is one thing to read these words. It is another to actually spend a little quality time exploring this new approach. So, Nacoran, your homework now is to spend 5 minutes/day for a week on just this one new awareness, and you may pop out at the end with understanding and a sort of enlightenment as to what exactly is the "essence" of bending.
btw, same goes for exhale bends with this understanding. It's all about tongue placement, too. ---------- The Iceman
Littoral - interesting teaching comment....is your job to teach teachers how to teach?
"All the descriptions, diagrams and analogies ultimately have to be created by the student for the content to REALLY be learned."
To this I disagree, as I've had mucho success in the classroom of about 20 - 30 students with my approach.
The best compliment I received was about 20 years ago at the end of an Augusta Heritage Blues Week Harmonica Class of 25 - a gentleman came up to me and complimented on my teaching technique. Hearing this frequently, I kinda brushed it aside by mumbling "thanks". He stopped me and said, "No, you don't understand. I have a PhD in Teaching Concepts (or something like that he said...don't remember the exact wording) and my job is to go to colleges and sit in on classes to evaluate the teaching skills and efficiency of the teacher, and you are one of the best I've seen in conveying concepts to the students!"
So, that reinforced to me that I was on the right track and have kept at it ever since! ---------- The Iceman
Iceman -oh, I don't often get much agreement on that. But I say it's a suggestion to raising the bar on what you already do. How can you get the students to describe it the way you do? If they can generate the description then they really understand. They become the teacher. By the way -vowels in terms of mouth position seem pretty important.
good point. I will tell the students (after a few weeks of them "getting" that bend concept) that it would be fun for them now to teach it to someone else, letting them know that by doing so, they actually reinforce everything that they've learned!
Two summers ago, one of my new students attended Augusta Heritage Blues Week and took a beginner course. He said he watched as that teacher tried to show students how to bend and was having a real hard time. My student took one student aside who was having no success and spent about 10 minutes with him teaching him my concept and had that guy bending pretty quickly! ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on May 07, 2018 7:37 AM
Michael, okay. I've watched most of them but I've missed a couple here or there.
Iceman, I can get bends more than one way, including the way you are trying to teach me, both for shallow and deep bends. The point I am trying to get at is that there are many ways to do things and that because we don't see what is going on inside each other's mouth we haven't developed good language to describe the different ways different people do it.
I think your explanation is a good one for the method you are explaining, but my whole point in the comment you quoted originally was that there are other ways to get bends. You are setting the dispute up as a rhetorical device, like Plato writing about the debate between Gorgias and Socrates, but like I suspect Plato did, you are misrepresenting one side of the argument to focus on a different point than the one you are rhetorically arguing.
So what's really going on in there? To conjur a connection, Augusta Heritage with Howard Levy. He had a sonogram video made of him playing. What I really remember was how deep in the throat the tongue shifted down in the neck. I think it's called the tongue down there... Iceman, that "question" goes with the vowel one I asked you earlier because Pierre Beauregard back in the day told me how they were the primary articulation of mouth position to establish and define sound. He taught me to say vowels with the harp - in and out.
I did describe them above. One seems to be opening the lower part of my throat and pulling down my adam's apple. When I make a noise with my vocal cords that's the same part of my throat I'm using. I'm not sure why I use it. It probably is just something I learned early in my playing that has stuck. I think I use it more on lower harmonicas.
Nate is quite correct. I can also bend using the very back of my mouth, I think it's called the soft palette. I can do this most successfully on harps below a D, as it gets quite hard to get the correct resonance (for me) on higher harps. I can also bend using the tongue in the way Iceman describes.
Edited to say:
The tongue is involved in both techniques, it's just in the soft palette technique the tongue's involvement is limited to the very back of the tongue, where it leaves the throat. Psychologically it doesn't feel as though the tongue is moving, because none of the muscles I use normally move the tongue, but I can verify the tongue moves by putting a lollipop stick in my mouth as I bend, and the stick is forced upward by the back of the tongue.
The best way I could describe the technique is as a gagging action to restrict the air flow.
Last Edited by bluethird on May 09, 2018 6:12 AM
bluethird - new to posting here, but a welcome logical and reasonable voice!
Whether you believe me or not, I've actually spent years looking for the "essence" of bending and over the years, have felt that it was done by the throat, tonsils, above the vocal cords, etc!
However, as I got deeper into my "quest", I started to one by one remove unnecessary bundling (in my mind) of two or more factors, and every time I peeled back the layers, I was always left with "it's the tongue position".
So, then I started a quest on how to quantify and describe what had up to this point been indescribable, so I developed target spots on the roof of the mouth - which are finite points, btw, and not some nebulous cloudy area - and started talking about this in columns I used to pen for AHN back in the late 80's/early 90's (which, btw, was WAY before a lot of "How to" harmonica books started to make their appearance - mysteriously touting this same concept for some coincidental reason).
I found that most folk believed that the tongue was just what was behind their teeth and in front of the throat, when the truth is that the tongue extends down into the throat. This lack of understanding led to a lot of debates re:"throat bending", etc.
I also found that the "essence" and focus I laid out leading to bending to exact pitch via quantifiable target spots was a lot easier than the previous paradigm had suggested - "It takes years to learn", so a very short path up the mountain came into sharp relief in my mind.
No one has ever been able to convince me yet (and I do investigate all the claims) that it is something other than the tongue. In trying to disseminate this pretty stunning information, I got used to the push back from people who seem to want to hold onto their past - especially if they spent years to develop a bend ability and resist realizing that it can be done simply and quickly. To these people I ask "Can you bend pretty close to exact pitch ALL the notes available at any given time, or does your approach result in a "well, it's in the ballpark most of the time" result? Also, are you able to describe and teach what you do in a simple and clearly understood and duplicatable fashion?
I guess there are those that are serious and others that prefer a comfort zone. I mostly am interested in serious and open minded and have great success with interacting with these folk. The others just seem to want to debate and hold onto "there are many ways to bend", which puzzles me when a few say they use different approaches in different situations. This seems kinda hard to control and utilize on the fly when a simple/basic essence approach exists that eliminates all the extra poundage.
My goodness -it's hard enough to switch from TB to single note and back, depending on the situation called for. To add "well, you have to switch your bending techniques as well" feels like too much to me.
btw, this "essence" of bending works THE SAME for single notes and with your tongue resting on the harmonica for TB as well, so why wouldn't you want to explore this direction as well?
I know I would! ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on May 09, 2018 6:55 AM
Nate....all I see is a square that says "IS THIS YOUR PHOTO? Please upgrade your photobucket account to enable 3rd party hosting"...... ---------- The Iceman
Disclosure: I'm a respiratory therapist so that anatomy is my expertise.
That area is the trachea (windpipe) below the larynx (voice box.) This is well below where you have any conscious muscle control, not the mention that the trachea is a thick essentially hard ringed tube that cannot be reshaped to any significant degree. The absolute highest level anything can be actively moved by muscles is the larynx (what you would see from the outside as the "Adams apple." If you are claiming you are changing the shape of that anatomy, it's not happening. It's not a physiologically sound proposition.
Last Edited by JSalow on May 10, 2018 11:25 AM
"Disclosure: I'm a respiratory therapist so that anatomy is my expertise.
That area is the trachea (windpipe) below the larynx (voice box.) This is well below where you have any conscious muscle control, not the mention that the trachea is a thick essentially hard ringed tube that cannot be reshaped to any significant degree. The absolute highest level anything can be actively moved by muscles is the larynx (what you would see from the outside as the "Adams apple." If you are claiming you are changing the shape of that anatomy, it's not happening. It's not a physiologically sound proposition."
Like I said, I know physiologically there are a lot of issues with referred sensation. That's where I'm feeling it. That doesn't of course mean that that's where it is happening. The best way I can describe it is if you put your finger on your adam's apple and and use the muscles in your throat to move your adam's apple down.
And like I said, I don't bend that way all the time, just on some of the lower bends.
Thank you JSalow for helping to shine a light on this!
Nate - methinks you are "focusing" on the area that can not have anything to do with bending, so maybe try refocusing your attention to the tongue in all its glory? ---------- The Iceman
Iceman, all I can say is I've described what I'm doing when I bend that way (but that's not how I bend most of the time). It seems I'm doing something physically impossible (which would be fascinating, call Ripley's), or that what I'm describing is involving referred sensation... and I assume under that scenario I'm at least doing something different enough that you aren't experiencing it the same way, which again, I find interesting.
You made this thread about me with your title. If your post had been 'this is how I teach people to bend notes' that would have been very different, but you didn't. Like I said from the beginning, I bend notes more than one way, and that the second way I'm bending is different from what you are describing. Your premise from the start wasn't, 'this is how I do it' or even 'this is how you should do it' but 'this is the only way to do it, physically.' I'm telling you that I do it differently sometimes. I've made allowances for referred sensation, that the human body can feel sensations in places where they are not, (like I said, I had mid back pain that was caused by problems with acid in the esophagus, which is obviously referred pain.) You also keep phrasing this like you are trying to teach me how to bend notes. I can bend notes... in fact, it seems I know one more way to bend notes than you do. I'm not advocating that other people learn this technique, just saying it's something I do and where I am feeling the sensation. If you would like to do some research on where referred sensations are in the throat, by all means share them... JSalow, if you have that information, I'd be fascinated to hear it. That is, in fact, what I am trying to figure out here, what my point that Iceman decided to turn into a separate thread was in the first place...
But Iceman, I'm finding the way you are waging this argument both counter to actual inquiry, and quite condescending towards me. You misrepresented what I was saying and then used it to go into a teaching lesson ostensibly aimed at me as your strawman. Every good teacher I have ever had has also had good listening skills for listening to what other people say. There are parts of my harmonica game that need work. I'm not claiming to be anything more than I am, a guy who can play a bit of harmonica. My overblows come as close to sucking as you possibly can while blowing, but what I said, and what I have said through this whole thing is that I am doing something different than what you are describing and getting results. I am, by participating in this discussion, trying to figure out how to describe what I'm doing to find an answer. I've laid that out several times and each time your answer has been, 'but let me teach you how to do it this way', despite the fact that I have said repeatedly that I already know how to do it that way. I've been playing 10 years or so now, which I know doesn't make me nearly as experienced as many players, but I do understand the basics... and on other occasions, like when I described sounding a single note with multiple holes exposed to an open mouth other people told me they didn't think it was physically possible (in that case, they were talking about physics, not physiology), but some other people experimented and found that they could do it to. I've described how I move my lips with the harmonica and how I angle the harp side to side and people have found that helps them with wear and tear on their lips. If you don't believe it can be done, try it. Maybe it's something you can't do, like some people have a hard time with curling their tongues. Maybe you can figure out, if it's impossible, what technique would create referred sensation that would create the sensation that I'm describing. Again, I wouldn't be having this discussion if you hadn't framed the whole thing the way you did, but that is, well, that's you.
Above was just my way of talking about my approach, which seems to work quite well for anyone open minded to discovery as well as share what I've spent YEARS examining. I've not seen anyone else approach it as vehemently and completely to date.
When I can get a rank beginner to bend to pitch within 2 weeks when most over the years have taken so long to even deal successfully with 2 hole inhale bends, it seemed like a break through in harmonica instruction and technique understanding.
The extreme push back I've experienced is puzzling to me. If I had run into someone making a similar claim, I would have jumped on the opportunity to find out for myself if it was an improvement over what I had struggled with....but that's just me.
As a matter of fact, there was a period of time when I chased down ANY teacher who offered insight into areas in which I was weak.....which finally led me to Howard Levy back in the 90's.
So, sorry if I bent you out of shape a bit there, Nate.
tmf...thanks for posting. I'd not seen this one. Just the original Howard Levy one.
It's nice to see visually and in a laboratory setting a confirmation of my premise that it is merely tongue placement that creates and controls the bends.
Dave's tongue's lump is sliding back - aiming that lump at specific target points one may imagine as tiny "x"s on the roof of the mouth.
Long time I've not been here, and just don't want to add tension here, BUT: while TB, is it still possible to bend? I mean: since the tongue is blocked?
YES. It is possible and not that difficult if you believe in the tongue position to bend as discussed on this thread.
The tongue is the magic muscle. It can twist, turn and flatten out, and when the tip is on the harmonica, the rest of the tongue can still move around, lump up and aim at a target spot, etc! ---------- The Iceman
It might be interesting to see a series of similar videos to see what a parrot's tongue does when it mimics sounds. Having recently learned how to hit and use ob/ods has had me thinking the new use of the tongue might be akin to that of the parrot of any other creature that has a tongue. Indeed, Iceman, the tongue is the magic muscle.
I've always been facinated w/ players like Sonny Boy 2 and Rick Estrin who somehow manage to play w/ no hands and sound just as good or better than guys holding the harp in their hands or in a rack. I don''t consiider it a mere parlor trick. I love showmanship. I 've tried it many times. There is a lot going on playing w/out your hands. One hurdle is keeping the harp in your mouth and after that figure out single holes and bends etc. It's a mouthful. ---------- Reasonably priced Reed Replacement and tech support on Hand Made Series Hohner Diatonic Harmonicas.
'Making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time. Click MP for more info. Aloha Mark .
this discussion has been held before.....I will say now as I said before.....I can bend with my throat without using my tongue.....at one time I could not but by doing exercises to strengthen my throat muscles I was able to do it.....when I bend my tongue stays on floor of my mouth
I am draw bending with my throat, which may or may not be the back of my tongue. I tell anyone who asks about bending, "it's the chug-a-lug muscle". For everyone who asks about blow bends, I will refer them to Michael Rubin. That U-block thing is beautiful. I know a highly accomplished harmonica player who's approach to blow bends is to just blow harder. He can bend the rafters down. I think there's probably some subliminal embouchure adjustment, but given his credentials, I would not even consider entering into a debate about it.
Like an old dog gripping a towel in its teeth, it is very difficult to wrest an ingrained habit/concept from an "old" harmonica player who spent years learning to bend and insists it is all in the throat muscles! To them, I would LOVE to have the ability for a sonogram type x-ray to be ordered and have them bend - with the ability to watch this video afterwards....the few I've seen so far have all reinforced the "tongue controls the bend" discussion...not one has shown no tongue movement and all throat muscle movement.
Once again, my position being that people are focusing their attention away from the tongue towards other areas - throat, below the throat, etc, while the tongue is secretly doing all the heavy lifting!
One can say "my tongue stays on the floor of my mouth", but would love verification of this with a sonogram.
As to the highly accomplished harmonica player (with CREDENTIALS, yet!) who says blow bending is achieved through blowing harder, I say this is total baloney (and I don't care about the CREDENTIALS).
Bending technique is NOT about force. It is about finesse (and tongue position). One should be able to, for example, blow bend the upper notes at a whisper of volume, too.
So, not wanting to argue back and forth with those old dogs with the towel clamped in their teeth. Just would like to see someday the laboratory verification of their position on one of those cool sonogram videos, please. That would actually convince me that it is possible... ---------- The Iceman
dont think medicare would pay for my sonogram and really dont want the added expense......BUT.....your throat muscles can be strengthened.....Ive used adams exercise to do my unachieved throat vibrato for several years........and yes it really did strengthen my throat muscles......but nobody said throat vibrato is easy......throat vibrato for 7 beats.....exhale on the 8th beat
and like JSalow.....I worked 33 years as respiratory therapist......and hes correct......you cannot control below your larynx......but you can sure control above.....in pulmonary rehab swallowing techniques can be taught......and your epiglottis job is to keep airway free and clear......otherwise you will aspirate......and you will not be long for this world
also it seems as though you will never believe that my tongue stays on the floor of my mouth whilst bending draw notes so just forget about it all...........signed old dog
Last Edited by groyster1 on May 14, 2018 9:45 AM
all I'm saying, old dog, is that there IS a way to prove it in a laboratory....much better than trying to pull a towel out of mouth!!! (or endlessly go back and forth!).
Like I said, it would convince me that it can be done, but until then.....
btw, I never said that the throat wasn't used to great effect - that pre yawn attitude holding the throat open increases resonance....some vibrato comes from throat (or larynx) pulsations...just NOT the bending according to evidence provided to date... ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on May 14, 2018 10:02 AM
take the last word......its obvious to me youre always right and everybody else is wrong......after all you teach so what do I know????SONOGRAM!!!!!!!!how effin ridiculous
Teachers I know in real life, even a couple of good harmonica instructors, do not work in the fact that they teach in their daily conversations. As for technical instruction regarding the diatonic harmonica, over reliance on it turns too many players into others who sound precisely like the man/woman before him and the next harmonica after him. The cult of technique crowds out style, personality, originality. It turns established styles into a fossilized canon, a museum of dead things once great, now irrelevant to personal expressiveness. Instruction has its place, of course, but the student leaves the class room soon enough to invent something of their own to bring into the listening world; lectures and authority on the matter of a player's growth can no longer be tolerated. ---------- www.ted-burke.com
Django Reinhardt came up with some cool new techniques because his fingers were burned and fused together.
Some people would have told him "Give up."
Others would have told him how to move his fingers. They would have said, "You'll never amount to much, playing like THAT, dude."
I wouldn't worry too much about technique. It's a means to an end, not an end. So it's worth worrying about, the way that cleaning up well is worth worrying about when you're on your way to meet your lover
But you still need to have something to say to that lover--and enough heart to say it, or not say it.
