Occasionally I play with a rather un-subtle bluesband. Some people would perhaps say that they compensate for this lack of nuance through playing louder than a fothermucker, but I´m not so sure. However, they are good guys and they get gigs every now and then.
After having had persistent problems with being heard (a not so unimportant part of playing music) I bought me a bigger amp, that purports to "model" a Fender Bassman on one of its settings. Not so very convincingly, I might add, but still. With this amp I use a Harp Octave as a means of getting some distortion, as well as keeping feedback away. The problem is that I need *more* distortion (yes, the HO is turned up to the max) and am therefore contemplating an overdrive/distortion pedal of some dirt cheap variety. Think Behringer, Joyo etc. (The distortion is necessary to fill out the sound when I´m backing a hard hitting drummer and a few huge Fender amps, there´s no way around it.)
My question to someone more tech-savy than me is, would the HO help me control feedback even from a pedal of this kind?
And please, all of you who now hurriedly are writing, "Buy a Harp Gear", "a Harp King", "a Harp Queen", "a Harp Break/Attack/Boogieman!", "buy a new mic", "two new mics!!", "work on your tone!", "work on your cupping technique!" "work on just about everything and spend thousands of dollars on new stuff!" Thanks, I appreciate the input, but it´s not necessary at this point. All I´m on the market for is just something cheap that gives me a slightly rustier sound.
Last Edited by Martin on Mar 16, 2019 11:48 AM
Sometimes more breakup makes feedback more likely as you get louder. Any time you add an overdrive/distortion pedal you probably add gain to your signal chain, and that increases the likelihood of having feedback problems.
That being said, the only way to find out for sure is to experiment with different pedals. Maybe you could try out some guitar pedals that band members use without spending more money. Maybe a music store would let you try some out.
You may have already explored another option that is already available to try without added expense: explore the different amp models built into your modeling amp. If you are not getting much breakup with the Bassman model it may be because the original Bassman did not get hairy breakup like a smaller amp. Other models may break up more easily. Worth trying all the possible models and settings, since you already own the amp!
I have a separate amp modeler (a vintage Digitech Genesis 1) and have found two models that sound reasonably good with harp, the Tweed and Blackface models. The Tweed breaks up more easily, the Blackface is cleaner. Other models immediately scream feedback due to too much gain.
If you have not already done it, I think it is worth spending time trying out and tweaking settings on the gear you already own before acquiring any more. If you already have tried all the settings on each model in your amp, never mind.
EDIT: I think that every player/mic/pedal/amp/speaker combination gets different sounds. When fine tuning for YOUR sound based on your playing and your performance needs there is no substitute for trying gear out and messing with the settings PERSONALLY.
Mic/pedal/amp/speaker recommendations you get from others are generic, though they may offer a starting place to someone just getting gear.
At the level you play and with the gear you already own, you need to try out adjustments to see what works for you, and not rely on general gear recommendations from others.
If you are rolling in excess cash, just buy one of each of everything someone recommends and give all the gear a try! Otherwise, have fun exploring how to get the best sound from what you have. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Mar 16, 2019 12:33 PM
I'm in your boat. I have the gear I can afford, not the gear that I would buy if money weren't an issue. Playing for me is all fun, but that perfect sound is always something I chase even though it really doesn't matter.
I play through an Epiphone Valve Jr., so our amps are totally different. But, I got an EQ pedal and changed the preamp tubes and it totally transformed my amp. With the lower gain tubes I nonlonger fear feedback. The EQ pedal lets me cut the highs and control any feedback, boost the mids, and also use the pedal as a boost. My amp got balls with a small investment.
Another thing I've done, that I won't do at a "mom and pop" music store, is use Guitar Center's "rental policy". If you think a pedal might work, buy it and they give you a month or so to return it. The guys that work there actually encourage me to buy it and return it if I don't like it.
Enjoy the search for sound perfection!
Last Edited by agarner on Mar 16, 2019 7:52 PM
As others say, the more distortion you add you actually increase the feedback problem. What you want to do is get the right tone at low volume, then raise that level - if that makes sense.
You might want to look at this new passive pedal: https://www.memphisbluesamps.com/little-fatty
Only $65 (which is relatively cheap compared to other feedback control solutions). Note it's for taming regular guitar amps so you can go louder, not for custom tuned harp amps.
I've also been testing the new https://dyna-mic.com/ and it does work as advertised as well, though a more expensive solution. ---------- Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa HarpNinja - Learn Harmonica Faster Komuso's Music Website
Last Edited by Komuso on Mar 17, 2019 2:16 AM
Komuso, thanks for the feedback, pun intended. So as I stated above, I though a tube replacement and eq was great. But now you got me thinking....I replaced my pre amp tube from a 12ax7 to a 12au7. The feedback with the 12ax7 was unruly, now not so much. But... i do notice the breakup is funky and kinda not all that wonderful. I don't know tons about the technical elements of amps, so its great to have this forum.
Did I possibly sap some of the tone when I switched tubes? And do you think that going back to the 12ax7, with the Little Fatty pedal would be a better option?
Thanks for the feedback!
Last Edited by agarner on Mar 17, 2019 9:28 AM
@dougharps: I should have said that the amp offers a "gain" function. It´s not very pleasing though: rather harsh and feedback prone. But you´re right, it´s always a good idea to explore the stuff you already own before setting out on a new quest for the Holy grail, albeit the cut price variety in my case -- and no, I´m certainly not rolling in excess cash! The Digitech Genesis could be an interesting thing ... but I already own a Digitech RP, with Richard Hunter´s settings and few I have cooked up myself, and even if it works just fine when connected to the computer for recording, it´s not a viable option live. You have sound points in general, dougharps, and I shall think a bit more about the stuff I already own.
@agarner: For smaller gigs I also use a 5W tube amp. It gives me a good sound, but it is a mouse that doesn´t roar with any greater emphasis when the guitar guys turn on their Fenders, even if miced up. The amp I use now is a Vox 60W thing -- cheapo but loud -- and it is "half valved", but as I understand it, it would not do me a whole lot of good if I started changing any of the tubes: I would perhaps get a better sound but lose volume, and in this blues band context, that´s something I can´t afford. There´s no "Guitar Center" in Sweden, unfortunately, but I should certainly explore the option of trying out things before I buy. (We have rather strong consumer right laws, and there is an "open purchase" option that probably should extend even to guitar pedals.) You have a point about the EQ pedal and I will definitely explore my own Boss Parametric more --it´s hard to dial in and I´ve sort of forgotten it ...
@Komuso: The Memphis pedal is definitely in my price range and I´ve watched the videos with great interest. I suspect though, that I already own something like it, even if it´s a home-made gadget that a fellow Swede has invented: small, passive, one knob. It certainly reduces feedback -- up to a point: I can´t quite reach the volume/sound combo that I desire ... but on my 5W amp I can now go up to 10 w/o problems, even if the gadget steals some of the volume. I saw your video on the Dyna-mic and I´ve put it on my wish-list but right now it´s a bit outside of what I can afford.
I have a general impression that "overdrive" is a bit warmer than "distortion", and that somehow infused my query above, but I shall think before I buy!
You could go a different way, sell your amp and octave and buy a harp attack and run it straight into the PA. No more tube swapping and if you count the 65 you would have paid for the fatty it makes sense on the money side too.
@sonvolt13: Yeah thanks, that could have been a way to go. As a matter of fact I used to own a HA pedal, but sold it a couple of years back. I never liked the way it sounded; also if you wanted to get real dirty it didn´t perform that well, at least according to my tastes. But I know some people swear by it. Maybe the Harp Break would be more to my liking ... but I´ve never tried that one.
Yeah, I’m not sure why more people don’t go the pedal route. I gigged in a duo with a sansamp blonde and was extremely happy with it. I also used it with a blues combo and it went fine, with no feedback. Honestly, I thought it sounded better than my harp Gear 2 lined out because it was less bright. The joyo is a knockoff of the blonde and some people say just as good. Overall, I think the best option is to convince the rest of the band that they are too loud and having them turn down instead of you turning up. Good luck with that last option ??
Last Edited by sonvolt13 on Mar 17, 2019 3:02 PM
sonvolt13: The Joyo is a great little thing, not least in view of its modest price. But when you want to get real dirty you face the usual problems. At least in my case, and despite having tried it with a host of microphones. (Haha, I can see from your concluding sentences that you´re a realist.)
Martin, my comments may not be on-target for you, but I'll go ahead anyway in case they're helpful. If I am hearing you right, you want to get louder (w/o feedback) and dirtier. A more dedicated feedback control pedal may help -- you can raise the volume of the "bassman" pushing it into its distortion range (that would work with a reral bassman anyway) -- more volume before feedback and more distortion -- nice. (i did also like Doug's suggestion of modeling something like a champ instead of the bassman). Another possibility is to use the 5 watt amp you mentioned, drive it to distortion, and line it out to your big cleaner amp. That could require you to get a line out added (seems like I saw a "pedal" recently that you can plug into the speaker jack that let's you run a speaker level line to the speaker and a line level line to second amp or PA). Also, based on your desire to "get real dirty," I do think the HarpBreak would be more to your liking -- into amp or as has been discussed, into PA -- as long as you can get enough volume in a monitor for you to hear yourself. I'm always happy to be corrected by those more savvy, in the hopes of providing good info here.
Last Edited by TetonJohn on Mar 18, 2019 9:52 AM
Martin - I have the HO. I also have the HA and the Harp Break. For some high volume applications, I go straight to the PA using the HA and HO stacked, keeping the drive and effect dials on both devices on the low side.
To me, anything over 10:00 on the effect dial of the HO is too much. Through the PA, the HO by itself doesn't do it for me. However, when stacked with the HA(and/or the HB) with the drive dial at the same level, they produce a very nice, driven tone and the real "magic" of the HO pedal kicks in providing the help it does with feedback.
Most effects add gain which is why the Boss DS-1 or FZ-1 may sound great for guitar, but all they do for harp is summon the feedback demons - especially at any kind of volume. All Lone Wolf products are low gain which is how and why they work with that mic you are using. That mic is giving an incredibly hotter signal than your standard guitar pup. Great for crunch at low volume but unusable (for me anyway) when db's are increased.
The Joyo you are looking at is most likely a low gain overdrive which will add a little hair around the notes and stack very nicely with the HO pedal. Just remember to keep the effects dials on the low side. A distortion pedal engineered and made for guitar never provided me with anything but frustration. I have tried both the aforementioned Boss products and either returned them or gave them to my string slinger buddies. I also just purchased a low gain OD pedal for guitar which works very well. (Yeah its a bit of an obsession according to my wife). Its not great but it is good. Unit is called a Tube Squasher by Xvive. Designed by Thomas Blug ("renowned" German guitarist) and made is China...what isnt? (Lone Wolf Products are not made in China!) Low Gain Drive - FET based (supposedly mimics the character of a power tube) Small footprint and best of all: $20.00!!!!!
I try to avoid Bee Ringer products. I have found their QC to be hit and miss..mostly miss. I have had my share.
I think the most important things to remember when you absolutely, positively need ear damaging levels of volume is this:
1.0 The more you increase the effect from a pedal - any pedal, the more you will have dial down the gain to avoid feedback. Call it surfing it you like. Tone vs Feedback. When stacking, it applies even more but with a better result. You are basically replacing removed gain via a preamp dial with the gain generated by the effect pedal if that makes sense. This is why we replace preamp tubes with lower gain models and use in-line "pads" or gain reduction devices. Taming the signal if you will. Having the ability to adjust how much gain I am removing via a preamp dial gives me just a little more control. I have also successfully used a preamp stand alone, with a mic and amplification device of my choice, with excellent results. Depends on the mic, amp/PA, room and players.
Most of my favorite harp players like it right on verge. Myself included! I do this by having a (now discontinued) $30.00 ART Tube MP Studio Preamp first in the chain. It has separate input (gain) and output (signal) attenuators so I can crank the mic volume and control the signal flowing to the rest of the rig by dialing down the input gain on the preamp device. There is video on this site of Kim Wilson using one of these things with (2) 4 x 10 Fender DeVilles. Sounds killer to me...and plenty loud! I have the tweed version myself. Its a 60 watt beast which gets the bulk of the over-loud sessions. It's heavy at 60+ lbs but it looks and sounds great on a big stage. Its also loud enough to effectively compete with with a Twin or Super Reverb and a double-bass drummer from the 80s!
2.0 Get a good set of musicians ear plugs or hearing aids will be even more important to you down the road then dirt pedals are right now!!
All the best!
Last Edited by Poe on Mar 18, 2019 3:48 PM
@Poe: Thanks for this! This Monday I hope to have a chance to work on some PA settings with a Joyo AS and HO and a few different mics. (If I remember I´ll try to make a telephone recording.)
Question: do you use a bullet type mic here or lo-z, for the HA/HO/PA chain?
I´m interested in that Art Tube gadget and will check it out. (There´s one relatively close to me that I think I can lay my hands on.)
If this is your amp, it is an analog modeler as opposed to digital. It offers 8 different pre-amp circuits.
The specifications indicate that you have these pre-amp gain structure choices: (CLEAN1, CLEAN2, CRUNCH1, CRUNCH2, OD1, OD2, H.GAIN1, H.GAIN2)
You also have bright and fat switches. On other amps I have found that the bright and fat switches usually prevent getting high volume output by increasing feedback. Still, you can experiment. I would start with the fat and bright off while checking out the pre-amp options with mic only, no pedals.
I would guess that most or all of the first 4 pre-amp choices could be viable with harp. I don't see a need for purchasing additional distortion or overdrive pedals unless you choose to use one of the clean pre-amp setting and then create your distortion with the pedals and not the amp. That would be similar to using a PA or keyboard amp.
The AV60 amp has different levels of gain/distortion built into those circuits. It would seem that from the middle to the right of the list you increase the likelihood of feedback when trying to get volume.
Once you determine the best loud pre-amps, try the fat switch and then your pedals until you figure out how to get the most volume before feedback with a decent tone. it seems unlikely that the bright switch will work with a harp mic.
It is likely that the loudest the amp will get before feeding back is when using one of the clean channels.
You have pedals already, and you have the amp settings. You could easily spend hours trying out different combinations of amp settings and pedals. This is a high volume process and may annoy others in the vicinity. I do my experimenting when my wife is away and pets out of the room.
When using a harp mic with a guitar amp the general rule is that the more distortion and gain, the earlier the feedback as you turn up.
Oh, another issue: some amps and speakers work better than others with harp with regard to tone and feedback. VOX is known for guitar "chime" which is a brightness. This may lead to feedback unless you use EQ to adjust for it.
Good luck in your quest to achieve small single-ended amp breakup tone with a loud amp. ----------
@dougharps: Yes, that´s the amp. Eggs Ackly. "Clean 2" has by far proven to be the best combo for volume/sound. But once again (a-gain) I do need some more bottom distortion to my sound. You are entirely right on the perils on the amp testing question: The loud playing blues guys just sigh when I start my testing procedures: "So what pedals did you bring this time?" Then they turn to coffee, and look plagued.
If I should give you a notion of what I´m expected to play, you could say: the backing saxophone on some Elmore James sessions. Solos are no problem as long as I get heard, but that backing sax needs to be *heard*, albeit in the background. Or BWH on the Cobra sessions.
Of course, I should quit. Still (despite from quite possibly being the best musician in the gang -- maybe not saying a whole lot) I don´t really like the notion of bailing out just because of "sound".
If this works (big if) here is first a picture of my pedal settings for lo-z mic straight to PA; and a very brief clip, somewhat forced since there was very little time and my heart wasn´t in it.
I´m not wild about the sound, to mushy and un-distinct, but sometimes in the absence of an amp it has been what I´ve had to settle for. I can get loud, at least, which, in reference to what I say above, is important.
If any of you more knowledgeable people can say, "change it this way or that," I´m interested.
Martin, first, you can play for real. I don't like the digital distortion I get with the the octave effect that high. But that wasn't your concern, it was the mushy indistinct issue. I know. My resolution for exactly that problem was the Exotic EP. Always on 25 percent and everything I play is delivered in a neat mercenary package. Exotic>Octave>Harp Break>LW Delay>Carbon Copy Delay ---PA. JT30 Shell/Heumann Element
Thank you, Littoral, very kind of you. (Hopefully I can put up some more concentrated playing in the future, not from a phone, which doesn´t give the most nuanced recording. Still, as I said, this was very quickly and off the cuff.)
So you put the HO *before* HB? Interesting. If you can se my picture (didn´t get the link to work) I have the Joyo AS and then the HO. That´s what I´ve been taught; perhaps it doesn´t make a lot of diffeence but I´ll switch them next time.
The Eotic EP has been recommended to me before, as I remember. It was rather pricey, but you pique my interest and I´ll see if I can test drive one.
A cheap substitute for the Xotic EP booster is the Mosky XP booster; basically a clone of hte circuit, but about £20. It even has the little internal dip switches too. I used one for for a while but eventually switched over to the LWBC Clean Cat. Maximum 20dB boost, but works well even at around unity gain.
When I play in the band Im in---If I use the "Off Brand" vocal mic provided it sounds just like yr clip--No separation and mushy--When I switch to regular sm57 or 58- sound much crisper ---thats through PA or my amp
If its not the mic --I use a BBE sonic stomp for my leads—I have a fake “poor mans Bassman” —Peavy 4x10 It has clean or dirt channel—most times I use the dirty channel---but I use a "Lone Wolf mojo pad" It also has “effects in” and “out” – I use my sonic stomp in effects in out loop—which is after pre amp-I feel it works 30-40% better there, than at the end of my regular pedal chain—seems to help crispness and leads stand out
Sonic stomp http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5359557.htm
and ---at about 5:40 in this video
Mojo pad-- [I use the simpler one no buttons---not to expensive]
@Snowman: The mic in that clip is an inexpensive EV PL ... something. I´ve got several mics (don´t we all?) but I haven´t noticed any considerable differences in sound when it comes to the mushy department, and playing only through pedals. But you mention a 57 and that one I haven´t tried, so will do next time.
I also have a "loop" function on one of my amps, but, as usual, I don´t understand it. But you´ve got me curious: Should I put all effects there? Interesting. Thank you, I´ll check that out.
@Martin - Sorry for the late reply. That's an extra added plus with the ART gadget. It also functions as a direct box and has both 1/4" inch and XLR inputs so you can use a mic in either configuration. I have used both into the preamp with excellent results.
#1 is currently the Bulletini VC which is hi-Z. #2 is my Ultimate 545s which is currently configured lo-Z. They both sound fantastic to me. In fact mic-wise, everything else is now relegated to the back up of the back up bin, including my CM element modded JT-30.
TetonJohn is correct. LW and most other pedals are looking for a hi-z signal.
Cheers!
Last Edited by Poe on Apr 01, 2019 3:12 PM
Thank you, Poe. I might get serious about that Art tube thing. Or maybe a Harp Break pedal ... but there are times when I think I need another pedal like that proverbial hole in the head.
