Butterfield fan
12 posts
Mar 22, 2019
1:30 AM
|
So I bought a bassman 59 replaced the valves I can get the sound at home I love. Bought the blows me away mic from blow me away. Problem is in the live band environment I can't get near the volume I need, as soon as I try I get feedback. so I can't hear myself over the drums or guitar. Do I need to mic through the PA?.
This is a band that plays led zep and oasis one minute then nine blow zero the next. I am at my wits end - spent loads of money and still can't get the sound loud enough that I want. Without feedback
your help would be appreciated
|
jbone
2863 posts
Mar 22, 2019
4:37 AM
|
There are some variables here. When I had a Bassman I had a 12au7 in P1 and left the other 2 pre amp tubes as they were. My amp had two speakers that cut through at high volume and two that broke up early for low volume. I used either a crystal or CM mic.
Even with a loud band, if you have the pre amp set up right and speakers that will perform with a high z mic, you should get what you need out live. Unless the band is just totally blowing up.
There are some guys here who know more about the tech side than I do for sure.
----------
Music and travel destroy prejudice.
Reverbnation
Facebook
Youtube
|
barbequebob
3569 posts
Mar 22, 2019
8:29 AM
|
One of the first things you NEED to learn is that what sounds good in the living room, bedroom, basement or back yard of your house is often times going to sound TOTALLY DIFFERENT than when you play an actual live gig and the number one reason most players FAIL MISERABLY to take into account are the room acoustics and EVERY venue's acoustics are going to sound different and it's no surprise you're getting this at all. On top of that, every stage's acoustics are different as well and it's no surprise that there are going to be cases where you can hardly hear yourself when you're on the bandstand, but when you walk away from the bandstand at least 10-20 feet away, there is a possibility of actually YOU being the one too loud to the audience (and this HAS happened to me).
Another thing too many harp players FAIL MISERABLY to learn is to give signals to the band for dynamics and that often will HAVE to be both using the two 'V's," meaning both VISUAL AND VERBAL and the ones who don't do it are ALWAYS the biggest whiners about this stuff all the time. You gotta seize control over the situation and do not EVER give a rat's ass about anyone's egos when it has to be done and they have problems with it, they're not REAL musicians, just heavily over glorified jam hacks, plain and simple.
Some rooms you may need to mic the amp thru the PA but be careful of the monitor setting because that can also become a feedback nightmare, especially if the monitors are too loud to begin with and this is coming from REAL PRO GIGGING EXPERIENCE.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
jbone
2864 posts
Mar 22, 2019
11:43 AM
|
There is a reason I gave up the Bassman and the big volume bands. More than one really. But first is this sort of issue and Bob is right, different rooms sound different. And different places in different rooms. If you can do it you ought to get some recording of you with the band from out in the room. You may be amazed.
A couple or 3 other reasons I left the big volume scene are, blowing out harps trying to hear myself. Very bad and useless habit! Blowing out my voice trying to hear myself sing, same thing. Maybe most important, and also key to the above issues, was my hearing loss, partly due to loud stages.
I gravitated to both acoustic, like street playing and farmers markets, and also small venue small combo stuff. Wife and I are a duo and most of the time that's what we do. We sound good and have been fairly successful this way.
I sometimes miss the whole band/big sound big stage thing, but the devil is truly in the details!
----------
Music and travel destroy prejudice.
Reverbnation
Facebook
Youtube
|
Butterfield fan
13 posts
Mar 23, 2019
5:13 AM
|
thanks BBQ Bob and Jbone some good advice there. I replaced the 3rd vavle back to a 12x and that made a real difference to volume. If i do mic up do i need a DI box or can i put straight into the PA
|
Honkin On Bobo
1509 posts
Mar 23, 2019
7:19 AM
|
Had this same problem myself about a month ago. Green Bullet mic playing through a Fender amp which was mic'ed through the PA. I'll start off by saying I'm an amplification neophyte despite having played harp for a while, because I usually just blow through a vocal mic through the PA. I don't get enough chances to be up there with a band for me to really focus on this aspect of playing.
That said I was up there trying to hear myself, and turned the volume dial on the green bullet up. Started frying the ears of the bass and keyboard players. It was brutal. We tried to work it out onstage before starting the next song, to no avail. Everybody onstage had a theory on why, where I was standing, where my hands were holding the mic when I wasn't playing.
Later a guitar player friend of mine who was standing in the crowd told me it was the sound guys fault. I'm someone who is willing to learn, but the only thing I learned that day was that sadly, it's complicated, and probably takes quite bit of performance time onstage with amplification to perfect that part of the craft. So I guess i'm just echoing what BBQ and bone had to say.
Just waded in to let you know you are not alone.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Mar 23, 2019 7:19 AM
|
doctom
46 posts
Mar 23, 2019
7:48 AM
|
Certainly not alone.
I play with a loud, guitar driven band...Southern rock and a some SRV style blues. Thought micing a Bassman through the PA would solve the problem and give me the sound we all strive for...WRONG!.
Feedback and not hearing myself remained an issue so now I'm playing a bulletized '57 straight through the PA. I miss the overdriven tone but it's much easier.
The guys in the band like the sound through the PA better. Keeping the Bassman and bullet mic for blues settings.
|
jbone
2867 posts
Mar 23, 2019
12:42 PM
|
There's another option too, and that's either modeling pedals or straight up pedals like what Kinder and Lone Wolf put out. Something to look into.
----------
Music and travel destroy prejudice.
Reverbnation
Facebook
Youtube
|
snowman
427 posts
Mar 24, 2019
5:48 PM
|
everyone is right every situation is different---Wood Floors ,no wood floors---carpet no carpet--lots people close to stage or not
Sometimes ur forced to be close to yr amp and or directly in front of it
sometimes its better to leave amp on ground--sometimes its better up a little and tilted on stand
sometimes mic'd somtimes not==sometime less thru amp and more through PA and vice versa
Try low volume on mic, high on amp and vice versa
I always go safe and turn up as i go
to help eliminate feedback---I use lone wolf
https://www.lonewolfblues.com/shield.html
check out
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/blues_harp_forum_search.html
Boss GE7 Equalizer
these are the settings I use- copied from online
Boss GE7 Setting for harp (1 0f 4)
Harp Freq Response = 174 – 3135 hz [not inc overtones]
100hz: If u r playing live, u can remove some of this
because that is bass player territory.
----------------------------
200hz and 400hz:
This is where the low mids of the harp lives.
It dependes on the harp and the amp, but a boost here is usefull.
------------------------------------------------------
800hz: level it at 0.
--------------------------------------------
1.6khz:
Where the definition of harp lives.
Boost here to cut the mix better.
------------------------------------------
3.2khz:
remove a few db from here
if your tone knob does not goes this far
---------------------------------------------
6.4khz:
remove 5db to 10db. u dont use this frequencies
but your mic can pick it up really fast (feedback)
---------------------------------------------
I use a Cm element in a chopped turner I made--I can play pretty loud----loud enough to hear myself over the band---we mic everything for foh and monitors
hope this helps
|
Butterfield fan
14 posts
Mar 25, 2019
8:26 AM
|
Great thanks for all your help. I am now using a SM57 which has less feedback than a bullit but I notice if a plug it straight into the amp with a convertor from low to high it works great. If I plug into harp shield with the convertor and line straight out to amp it is less loud do I need a convertor at each end?
There must be a way to Mic up a bassman also through the Pa to capture that sound. What is the best mic is it the Sennheiser E-906?
|
Littoral
1668 posts
Mar 25, 2019
1:22 PM
|
The conclusion I got from reading this (and the other) post is that you are in an arms race not worth winning. And I can just about guarantee the audience has it worse. That kind of volume just isn't fun. And fun is the point.
Jawbone - I'm using one of Greg's elements in a JT shell if ya wanna try it ??
|
Thievin' Heathen
1125 posts
Mar 25, 2019
7:11 PM
|
Sugar Blue seems to have rack & roll volume and last time I saw him play, he instantly and constantly cranked his mic volume off whenever he was not playing. Someone once said to me, "it only feeds back when you're not playing" I've got an on/off switch on my mic cable and a volume knob on my mic. I use those to arrest feedback as soon as it happens. I've never used them in an arms race with the guitar players because I rarely find myself in that situation and usually don't have a Bassman with me when I do, but now I'm starting to get ideas.
Ya know, the loudest show I ever went to was Leon Russell.
|
jbone
2869 posts
Mar 25, 2019
8:13 PM
|
Littoral- thanks brother, we are now in North Carolina about 30 mins from Myrtle beach! I have an old art deco shell-Astatic 335- that if I hit a lotto win I want to look into the size of the Heuman element. The 335 is small and light and a very cool look but the original crystal was pretty well gone when I got the mic.
Sad news, Jolene took a spill on a beach 2 weeks ago and has a lumbar fracture. She's on total light duty for 2 to 3 months. No guitar or much of anything until she knits up.
We def appreciate your kindness in our short stay on the Forgotten Coast, hoping next year or two we'll be back!
----------
Music and travel destroy prejudice.
Reverbnation
Facebook
Youtube
|
BnT
239 posts
Mar 27, 2019
10:24 AM
|
A Sennheiser e906 is a good choice for micing an amp. But if I have to run a 50w Bassman through a PA to cut through the guitars and bass, I'm probably playing in the wrong band... unless you're playing outdoor amphitheaters every night.
James Cotton used to use a Shure 585A through a '66 Bassman head with TWO 6x10 cabinets. That cut through and feedback was not an issue. Of course, his band understood dynamics and the goal of the guitar and bass players was to make the music sound good, not to be heard on another continent.
I gave up on playing with loud musician four years ago after playing 100+ nights with earplugs. Playing less often with good blues musicians has its own rewards.
----------
BnT
|
Joe_L
2865 posts
Mar 27, 2019
4:18 PM
|
The next step up from a Bassman is the venerable Twin Reverb. If you value your hearing, it is probably in your best interest to find another band.
|
tomaxe
152 posts
Mar 29, 2019
9:01 AM
|
If you can't hear your amp, mic'ing to the pa won't help you unless you want a monitor in front of you, and as Barbecue Bob says, that's another can of worms. Can the front of the house hear you?
You should be able to get sphincter-tightening volume from a Bassman with a high impedance mic. Should work for almost any semi-pro band situation in an indoor venue.
There are variables that more likely have to do with your bands' ability to understand dynamics and your ability to play amplified harp with good technique.
I had trouble hearing myself when I was starting out, even after several years. My technique improved and somehow the same amp I used to get howling feedback from now sounded punchy and fat with the volume dial on the same setting.
Of course, I didn't want to hear about that when I was starting out...
|
jbone
2871 posts
Mar 29, 2019
9:16 AM
|
One simple fix is to tilt the amp back so the sound hits your ears instead of your knees.
----------
Music and travel destroy prejudice.
Reverbnation
Facebook
Youtube
|
