groyster1
3369 posts
May 23, 2019
4:59 PM
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last night open mic blues jam sucked......I played first then followed by 2 more...….they were stepping ALL over the vocals,guitar solos and keyboard player who has been playing since 1954...…..I don't play that game and I don't crash parties..…..Im a guest and they call me up on slow blues.....that's what I do...….what Im asking is that harp wannabees please stop trying to hog the spotlight...….end of rant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and there were were 5 harp players in the end
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jbone
2929 posts
May 23, 2019
5:18 PM
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Been there, done that. Early on I was taken firmly in hand and NOT ALLOWED near a mic unless it was time for my ONE turnaround. I learned manners even if I resented it badly at the time. Eventually I learned enough manners and chops to be an asset.
I have not hesitated to be the not so popular one who will ask a bad mannered player to back up 2 steps and act like an adult. It's gotten me in some little scrapes but more often someone who appreciated it came to my- and the jam's- defense. It only happened a few times in a couple places.
I've seen a player reach back and either turn down or unplug a hot dog's amp. Any time I was in the host band for a jam- a few different times and places- I was nice and kind but firm too. Standard was, let a new guy or gal go for one song and see what they had, and based on that first impression decide if they got any more spotlight. I believe everyone gets a time to shine if they want it. I also believe that passive aggressive behavior has no place when a band is entertaining guests of a joint. Management wants good sounds coming off the stage and not a lot of wanking and wailing.
These days I don't "do" jams. I'm fortunate to have a partner who believes we should go out and cold call and get gigs. We're worth a few samoleons. Jams have been a good source of band mates, teachers, students, and good times. A well run jam is a beautiful thing. A poorly run jam is a sad thing.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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Thievin' Heathen
1135 posts
May 24, 2019
6:10 AM
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Meh, it's a jam. Bar owner gets free music and drunken harmonica players and their friends buy lot's of alcohol. Most of the listening public is tone deaf anyway. I was at a jam last Friday night where some guy in the audience started buying the band shots of Crown. A few minutes later, that guy is blowing chunks, leaving a trail to the bathroom, but the Crown kept coming. Yes, there was some atrocious harmonica playing, and the Crown kept coming.
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The Iceman
3854 posts
May 24, 2019
7:15 AM
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Too bad the world isn't full of enlightened harmonica players like us, eh?
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The Iceman
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barbequebob
3586 posts
May 24, 2019
8:15 AM
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Harp players like that need to be called what they are, nothing but drunk ass jerk ball blowers. This is too often what many audiences and musicians who play other instruments see far too frequently when it comes to harp players and those guys give harp players a bad name. Unfortunately, with an open jam, it tends to be more often the norm.
Bear in mind that jams are NEVER the same as doing an actual paid gig and in many open jams, you ARFE going to run into a lot really HORRIBLE musicians like that and much worse. This is also a sign of a very poorly run jam as well. When I ran one, anybody pulling crap like this, I didn't give a crap how many firends they had there and booted their behinds off the bandstand for crap like this or playing too loud, etc..
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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groyster1
3370 posts
May 24, 2019
9:35 AM
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gotta agree with bob......Im a humble guest and sometimes Im the only harp player and leave after the song unless they ask me to stay......I have half a dozen key of harps and never play off key......the keyboard player has been playing for 65 years and does vocals also...….he came close to leaving the stage......its a shame a harp player ruins a jam that's always enjoyable
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Lou
66 posts
May 25, 2019
5:55 AM
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I'll go with BBQBOB on this one, if your hosting a jam and some clown weather it's harp player, guitar player, drummer take your pick who is stepping all over the vocals stop singing and let the person know what's up, if they keep it up stop again and tell them to get off the stage same thing for overly loud out playing. Only exception to the rule is Bar owner.
Lou
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snowman
458 posts
May 26, 2019
10:56 AM
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I don't think its even "harp want to be's"
More like "harp think they ares"
I don't know why --but so many harp players that learn to bend draws 234 in blues, think they are there.
If u ask how many bends are on 3 draw, they don't have a clue.
Im in one of my "realizing Im not where I thought I was phases"
Started feeling that way b4 HCH 2019- after It, I realized that;
even mellow, non arrogant guys can lose track of what level yr playing at.
May sound weird but I like being put in my place.
I don't want to be disillusion, like so many 1-3 players are --Not all ,but many.
I keep track of "unsolicited complements"--they are the only real gauge'
If I don't get them I know "i really was off tonight etc"
How can a "think they r" player not pick up the body language of Singers , guitarists, Key Board, Bass players, audience -- literally cringing at how obnoxious the harp guy is.
."he came close to leaving the stage"...
U have to be really arrogant and stupid not to notice that--
they have daily jams on the "blues cruise" --its luck of the draw ,I accept that. Experiance guys or gals sometimes tell me " please don't play over singer" etc
They don't say that to the guitar guy, the keyboard etc just us'
The flip side is when u do play "with the band"----as opposed to "vs the band" they smile when u play with them again. they know "cool" this guys respectful
We are all guilty in their eyes ---until proven innocent.
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The Iceman
3857 posts
May 26, 2019
1:20 PM
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guitar guy, keyboard guy on blues cruise jam most likely support the singer in what they play - MOST harmonica players don't know how to do this. This might explain the "just us" mentioned above.
If these mid level harmonica players would just understand that they should pretend that they are singing and playing the harmonica at these jams, they would have a better understanding how to support the vocalist...after all, one can't sing and play harmonica at the same time - or shouldn't be able to, anyways...
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The Iceman
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jbone
2931 posts
May 26, 2019
2:12 PM
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People who don't know how to converse in a discussion likely are the same ones who don't have stage etiquette. But it's something that can be and needs to be taught sometimes.
As I said above I began learning manners at jams. This continued as I began to be invited to join bands and also as I co-founded several projects. If you can't show respect at a jam, or in a band you are with, you don't have a happy future. Everybody starts someplace. For me I was not even really mid level when I began playing in public. I didn't know a soul in that town and the jam was my only opportunity to play with others. My behavior was not tolerated until it improved!
Years later in different circumstances, I still needed to grow as a player, and there's nothing like being handed the responsibility to front a band to make one grow the hell up. At that time I also had to learn to sing *somehow* in a very short time. Which I did, but both my harps and my voice suffered. Still, I learned from my mistakes and ultimately grew into the role pretty well.
I was one of those who had to have an amp and mic to get "that sound" long before I as ready. Whole nother discussion.
I think the whole point is that we "vets" of the stage have to be willing to confront bad behavior where we can. And it is not possible always, like if you're not hosting or leading on stage.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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Philosofy
904 posts
May 28, 2019
8:53 AM
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I've been there, and done that, and learned my lessons from jams. The key is that the bad harp players are doing this stuff out of ignorance. Most of them want to get better. You just have to learn how to tell them. I usually say things like "Great job! You had some good tone. But the harp usually doesn't go well when the singer is singing: try laying back then." Or "Good job! I could tell you were really in the zone. But you might want to look around stage more. You took the #2 guitarists solo." Of course, when they think they are the greatest thing since Little Walter, it can be tough.
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groyster1
3373 posts
May 28, 2019
9:03 AM
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spot on philosfy…….Ill be back Wednesday night for next jam...….the regular band knows I only do fills between vocals and solos...….so they call me back up......but they have to tell me key......I take all 12 keys with me in 750ml crown royal cloth bag......all marine bands in cardboard boxes.....but Im called upon I do my best
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The Iceman
3862 posts
May 28, 2019
9:11 AM
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Philosofy - I've tried this in the distant past, but the goofus harmonica player heard the first part (compliment) and somehow mysteriously wasn't able to hear the second part (criticism)....
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The Iceman
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ROBERT TEMPLE II
65 posts
May 28, 2019
3:12 PM
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Our local jam has been cut back to "Open Mic" to allow room for those who want to do covers of Alice Cooper, Steppenwolf and Marshall Tucker. It WAS a good jam for a few months. I hate radio music and its "classic rock" which is what the new bar owners think the locals want to hear, things like "FREEBIRD!!!" Please... So now, when somebody like the ones described by the OP come on stage nobody seems to notice. Pitiful crew up here in this state, sometimes. Sorry for the rant, I just don't understand why there aren't more enlightened folks who run bars. I'm pretty sure there must be SOME out there, just not 'round these parts.
Last Edited by ROBERT TEMPLE II on Jun 03, 2019 2:01 PM
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Philosofy
905 posts
May 28, 2019
3:49 PM
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Iceman, I agree. I just thought of something to add. "If you want to be invited up on stage more, and not have to wait until the last set, then try that."
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groyster1
3377 posts
May 29, 2019
7:14 PM
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tonights jam went well......lead singer is harp player so we shared the one PA...…..everything was much better
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nowmon
211 posts
Jun 01, 2019
8:18 AM
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How many harp players know how to play horn-lines back up riffs...It can sound good ,if done well.Harp is not a steady lead riff instrument.Low volume chugging here and there along with the drum and bass works too....
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Rgsccr
507 posts
Jun 01, 2019
8:02 PM
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I have been really lucky in that the main jam I have gone to (for six or seven years now) is run by a full-time professional musician, and the jam band includes a pro harp/trombone player Jeff Mason). While anyone can sign up, and occasionally someone who really doesn't know what they are doing does, by and large, good musicians show up. From the beginning, these guys taught me stage etiquette as well as how to play, and they were willing to tolerate my playing because I knew early on when to play and when not to. Also they respected the fact that I was clearly working hard to get better. Of course, it helped that a good harp player was part of the jam every week, and it is very harp friendly. I have definitely noticed Jeff's trombone informs his harp playing (and probably vice versa). Plus, he is a musician - not just a harp player (or trombone player). I've absorbed some of what he does and try to use it. Every once in a while Jeff will get up with me and play trombone and I've tried to mimic some of his horn lines.
Last Edited by Rgsccr on Jun 01, 2019 8:05 PM
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jbone
2937 posts
Jun 02, 2019
5:12 PM
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Slightly OT but one of the best sit ins I ever had was when I had a 4 piece band- drums, bass, guitar, and me on harp. I invited a waited from a local restaurant I had never met to bring his trombone out and sit in for a set that night and it was a match made in heaven. We swapped licks and parts for TWO sets. He was a real musician. Taught me some things. I named him the Velvet Machine Gun for the staccato blasts he taught me.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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ridge
766 posts
Jun 04, 2019
8:51 AM
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Every day I see this thread title and every day it makes me hungry.
In all fairness, when I regularly attended jams there was plenty of cringe worthy stuff that happened with other instruments and vocalists.
The main downfall is that jams don't usually tend to breed better musicianship. You get your three songs (or whatever is allowed) and everyone is waiting for a solo. I was guilty of calling the same songs most of the time if I was leading and get vastly different interpretations of those songs depending on who was sharing the stage.
Every once in a great while you'd get some actual interplay between musicians or maybe there would be a concerted effort to work on a song or two and come back and sign up together to try to present something a little more polished over the course of a few weeks.
The biggest lessons I learned from attending jams week in and week out for a few years was
1. Make friends with the sound guy (if there was one)
2. Keep my equipment needs simple for easy on / easy off set up
3. Listen to the songs being played and understand which ones were played often enough that they were worth learning
4. Try to make each song sound good - listen to other players and lock into that if I was able
5. Take feedback from others when it was given to me
Rgsccr pretty much nails what I was trying to get at. Pay attention, identify good musicians, demonstrate that you are listening and learning. Other people will notice improvement and sometimes even acknowledge it!
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Ridge's YouTube
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barbequebob
3589 posts
Jun 05, 2019
8:36 AM
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From a pro's perspective, being a good musician is MORE than just playing solos alone. Taking time OFF THE STAGE to learn how to back up other musicians, which means as a harp player, NEVER make the dumb mistake most harp playing jammers make of listening ONLY to harp because on a lot of tunes, the usual harp stuff can sound HORRIBLY out of place, and that means listening VERY CAREFULLY to other instruments and how they comp, like horn players as an example (many great harp players steal tons of stuff fromm horn players).
Learning how to listen PROPERLY is vitally important and too often, most jammers listen to the solos and little else beyond that and those who do listen carefully to EVERY MINUTE DETAIL OF WHAT'S GOING ON AROUND THEM also tend to work on something many harp players refuse to work on and that's their time, and getting that straightened out will not only upgrade your playing skills but it will also upgarde your listening skills as well and you will notice things you've never throught much of before but yet they have an enormous impact on what's happening. Look at how many harp players can't count the damned groove in at alland many of them say they can't count the time in but their time is good when the band comes in and that's just nothing but a lame excuse for poor musicianship and haveing good time is an important part of good musicianship and most non pro players make the mistake of ignoring that fact and buy into the dumb thing I hear too often that the drummer is the beat or your metronome and most of them who say that can't tell the difference when the drummer's screwing up the time and when time gets screwed, the groove gets screwed up.
99% of the harp hot dogs have horrible time and they're horrible musicians. When the jam has musicians with good time, the music is tight and grooving and the solos become icing on the cake but when the time of the musicians (even for just ONE musician is not good) isn't good, the music anin't grooving and everything sounds like crap no matter what.
All jams are NOT created equal.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Fil
431 posts
Jun 05, 2019
2:59 PM
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So, just morbidly curious, in the population of harp jammers out there, what’s the proportion of harp hotdogs? I know it doesn’t take a lot to mess things up, but are they the scourge implied here?
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Phil Pennington
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ME.HarpDoc
359 posts
Jun 05, 2019
8:30 PM
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Ok. Out of 6 or so regular harp players at the jam I go to in Maine, two tend to play over the singer or guitar. They’re both pretty new. One has been only playing for a year but he’s young, enthusiastic and fronts/sings and the crowd loves him. He’s learning stage etiquette though.
I also spend part of the year in Colorado where the jam I attend only has 4 or 5 regular hap players, one of which plays constantly. He’s not young or new.
So to answer Phil’s question, my experience on average is about 25% are hot dogs.
Last Edited by ME.HarpDoc on Jun 05, 2019 8:31 PM
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