I am a small woman with a small (narrow) mouth. It's so small that the dentist has to use a child size mouth thing when he takes impressions. My mouth shape/size is a disadvantage for playing the harmonica. There is a thread around about resonance. And I think my "chamber" is on the small side. I think tongue blocking helps my tone given my mouth shape.
Also, at least for me, I play more relaxed when I tongue block. I know relaxing helps my tone, too.
And I find trills much easier to do. I don't think I ever heard anyone else say that. I found them hard to control when I was lip pursing.
I am NOT pushing tongue blocking at anyone. Different things work for different people. I am just talking about why it works for me.
as you progress you will find a place for all sorts of different mouth stuff. Both Tb'ing and LP'ing should have their place in your technique long term. Concentrate on rythym and beat as well
Finding trills/warbles easier to do TB'ed is, I imagine, quite unusual. You must have developed your tongue contact with the harp to a very skillful level. Good on you.
Got any advice for us who have to work very hard at those 2&5 3&6 draw warbles?
I know: practice! ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2010 4:06 PM
I learned to play single notes from a Mel Bay booklet. It showed two basic methods, puckering and tounge-blocking. Tounge-blocking was just easier for me, I use it almost exclusively, except for the one hole, chords, and certain other effects. I do use lip pursing at times, just to keep it available.
Trills were always hard for me pursed...I just couldn't control the motion to match the timing, that was my problem.
As for 25 Draw warbles, do you mean rapidly going from 2D to 5D on opposite sides of the tongue, like LW does in the It's Too Late Brother solo (one of my all time favorite songs)? I call that tongue trills. Not sure if you mean that. If that is what you mean, I can't do it yet. I guess it is something you have to practice EVERY day for a month or two to get. Intensive tongue muscle training.
I've come to love my tongue best of all my muscles. I love training it. But I am a slacker at tongue trills. So I fake those when I play the It's Too Late Brother solo. The riffs and timing are plenty hard enough for me. The tongue trills will come... or not. Not a lot of people can do them, I am told.
I've been having a go at tongue blocking lately and have been find it quite difficult after pursing for so long. I suppose there are many ways to do it but I get stuck when I get to the lower holes. For instance, do I put my tongue on the comb at the end of the harp or switch tongue positions so it covers the 2 3 and 4 holes and play 1? Also, is there an optimum number of holes I should be blocking? eg. Is it best to block three holes with the tongue and play one or would it be OK just to block two holes with the tongue and play 1. I think I'm OK with tongue slapping but on trying to analyse how many holes I'm blocking whilst doing that is difficult to judge. It just sounds OK and I can switch from left to right tongue blocking fairly easily.
Another thing, I also have a smallish mouth and it made me wonder whether the depth of voice also has any correlation to the resonance question. Eg does deep voice = large resonance chamber, high voice = small resonance chamber or does it all depend on the length of the vocal chords.
I wonder what the differences would sound like if say Paul Robeson compared with Tiny Tim were to play harp.
Or me and Howlin Wolf... There's a comparison for you. Playing the harmonica is the first thing I ever did that made me want to be BIG
But I do think mouth shape and size have something to do with tone. I love that YouTube thing Annie Raines played with Dennis Gruenling a while back.... they both sound good but they are different.
I've always been practicing TB on and off. However, I really don't want to work too much on it because I don't want to learn wrong technique. I'll really have to take some lessons for that...
@addict@ very cool vid. Fantastic Duo!
@tooka@ "Eg does deep voice = large resonance chamber, high voice = small resonance chamber or does it all depend on the length of the vocal chords." I think it is a lot about length of vocal chords. But then I've read somewhere that the human voice is quite a complex interaction of different factors.
---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2010 4:57 PM
I like the way those bent 2-draws bark in that vid. Annie and Dennis are using different mikes and different amps, so the tonal difference may be there, but a lot of it is technique. Addict, are you aware of whether your throat is closed or open when you play? i.e. how low down in your mouth is the back of your tongue? It is possible that the pursing is done with the entire mouth rather than just the lips. Try and purse with the lips only and imagine you've got a huge gobstopper or a golf-ball in your mouth and keep the back of the tongue low and the throat open. Maybe tongue blocking keeps your tongue away from the throat by accident and you just need to think more about what you are doing when you purse? Maybe you only play loud? If so, is it possible that that tenses you up, restricting the air passages? ---------- Kinda hot in these rhinos!
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2010 1:40 AM
P.S. I'm a purser, but I'm learning TB note by note! It's a useful technique for moving from single notes to chords and back again. ---------- Kinda hot in these rhinos!
"Finding trills/warbles easier to do TB'ed is, I imagine, quite unusual"
Not at all. I play everything tongue blocked with the exception of holes 8,9,10 blow bends. I also play overblows (which I rarely use) tongue blocked.
Either way of playing is good and both have their advantages and disadvantages.
The reality though is that if you want to incorporate things like octaves, split intervals and certain rhythmic techniques into your playing, then you have to learn to tongue block to be able to do them.
In addition to what's been said - playing in TB improves tone by giving you more expression range with your hands/cup. To those who don't already know this I know it sounds weird, but trust me, this is FACT. To get full "wah" expression with your hands, you must be able to COMPLETELY seal the harp so that, with a perfectly tight cup you can't even get a sound out of it. This in turn requires sealing not only the rear of the harp but the front. It takes PRACTICE.
If I'm playing pucker, then holes are usually exposed on both sides of my face. I find it impossible to block them with my thumbs and still get a good seal to the rear. BUT... if you TB, then the entire left side of the harp remains in your mouth and you only have to seal the right side front.
I use both, and as does Kim Wilson, often switch midphrase and both methods come in handy and well worth mastering. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I know there are lots of reasons to tongue block. But I hadn't heard anyone discuss the things I talked about (small mouth chamber, easier to play relaxed and trills). And yes, rhythmic playing and tongue blocking techniques are at the top of my list...
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2010 10:00 AM
I have been TBing a lot for the last few months, and I like it. Personally, I'm finding it easier to do a lot of the subtleties that Adam describes in his YouTubes. And warbles ... when done puckered, my lips deform and I have to move farther to get the warble. Warbles, tongue-blocked, I can do more accurately, with a smaller movement, and no sticking to the harp.
I found it harder to do some of the bends, e.g. 2d, but am getting better with practice. I am not great yet with swishes. Right now, I do all tongue blocking on the right side of my mouth, but will eventually try the left as well. I'm not going to restrict myself to TBing, but I am certainly going to spend the time to learn how to do everything decently that way.
I only ever pucker - I assume this was natural for me because i came to harp after playing a horn (baritone) in a brass band for many years as a child. I accept there's sounds I won't be able to make, but I've got a style I'm happy with, particularly for articulating single notes and runs. Anyone know of famous harp players who did as I do?
My guess is that the board will inform us that any player good enough to be a professional and well known will be able to (and frequently use) both TB and lip pursing.
Nevertheless, i'm inspired by your post, as I am a 100% lip purser. My perspective is that there's so much i need to work on, that right now, to try to develop TB would just be overwhelming.
I like your attitude...esp..."I accept there's sounds i won't be able to make"
And I am glad when people have different different techniques that make different sounds. One of the problems today is that we become more homogenous as we all get exposed to the same things. Think about how short a distance you had to go in the south once to hear really really different blues.
I think finding ways to develop/encourage some sort of "honest" regionality is good. I think we all need influences to be really creative. But I don't think it is good when our influences are too much the same.
It's great to have today's access to music from everywhere, ideas from everywhere, and I love the internet. But it all comes at a price.
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2010 12:01 PM
If you find it harder to do bends TB'ing, it's because the inside mouth shape you're using is still in pucker mode, meaning that you need to open the inside shape much MORE to accomdate it and be much more physically relaxed, and also something VERY IMPORTANT, and that's to NEVER slam the tongue hard on the harp because you do need flexibility and doing that plus playing very physically uptight works about as well as a car does when it's transmission craps out and it can't get out of it's own way. Also more of the harmonica has to be in your mouth as well. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Thanks, Bob--what you said about "If you find it harder to do bends TB'ing, it's because the inside mouth shape you're using is still in pucker mode, " Clicked for me--I've been working on TBing for about eight months, and this tip has helped me get way better bends!
Awesome!!! Oldwailer, that is a VERY common problem among players who've started out puckering and then attempt to learn TB'ing. When I started out, I began as a TB'er and to do the pucker method, I basically had to do much of that (outside of playing very physically relaxed)in reverse. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Hi addict i started out as a U-blocker,Lip Purser,Tongue Blocker,your correct about persons physicle size Producing different tones it has a lot to do with the size of the mouth chamber and throat cavity,we will all have varying tones because of our Body size much like yelling in a 44 gallon Drum then yelling in a 20 gallon drum there will be a different tone,,it's phyisicl shape changes the tone,,when i was a lipper you tell me i couldn't get good tone the old dog would start barking,,i have converted over to TB over the last several months or more it took about two weeks of sitting down like a man possed to get it happening.Up and down up and up and down the scale i went untill i got it right i didn't try and play songs just scales,,the argument this is better than that method is trickling in hear i don't want to go there i hear it from both sides,,do i now think my tone is much richer Yes and had many compliments on my tone from my Bro's at Jam nights saying geeze ya tone's realy improved,,i just say thanks i been working on it lately to avoid argument,,i know this is a thread on what works for me,,i hear the Brothers concerns on Learning this method the slobbering into the harp unable to bend tounge blocked BBQ-B is right still in Pucker mode,,to Bend Lip Puresing we use a lot of Jaw movement and tongue movement,,to do it TB there must be no Jaw movement only Tongue movement,,i find that i still move my tongue the same as i would Lipped but no jaw movement with my tounge on the comb of coures,,my Journey is not self taught i have been going to private leasons to learn this technic,,youtube is a great place to learn but there is nothing better than one on one lessons to advance quickly on our journey,,i allso have found it much easy to navigate the harmonica i know what note is where much like a person would read brail i guess,,trills bends warbles there all there much easy to land them trills,,easyer to rip from a 2 hole bend up to a 9 hole Blow bend and such..to my Brothers learning this technic go for it you can only become twice the player you are now it's allway good to have 2 bullets in ya gun than one you may need to use them both at times..Ps Brothers and Sisters I'm not saying 1 method is better than the other method or you can't get good tone Lip Purseing i was proud of my tone as a lip Purser,,as Addict says this is a personal prefferece thats working for us at the momment we are not Dissing Lip Pursers,,Please don't go there,,Ps my local Hero is one of the best ass kicking Lip Pursers on earth,,and i would not be afraid to say he could stand side by side with Adam Gusso or his good friend Jason But hay thats just me Hero worshipping my Bro,,check him out on my youtube page (nastyolddog)check out my Bro REV vidio clip This Train,,Addict thanks for introducing me to Dennis in the thread whats he doing,,i emailed DG he is one stella fella he took time out to explain his own Personal Journey from Lip Puresing to Tounge Blocking after i related my lifes Journey to him one Cool Bro,,it was me who urged Dennis to come over to MBH and explain what he was doing in the vidio clip provided,,this was just befor i came abord MBH myself
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2010 5:37 PM
nacoran - it was a baby tuba, a bit smaller bore than a euphonium but still in b flat. Then switched to trombone briefly when I wanted to joined a rhythm and blues outfit at college. Then got lent the butterfield first album by our singer / guitarist, and two weeks later I was playing harp at gigs. Good times, but I dare not listen to the tapes because I guess I've learned a lot about music in the intervening 19 years.
