shanester
87 posts
Jan 28, 2010
8:12 PM
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Yeah, hvyj, I hear you. I certainly don't dis alternate tunings, people are making some cool music with it, but for my path, it's the richter. I also like how that basic harp is so accessible, like some poor kid from a third world country could get one and learn to make such powerful music.
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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nacoran
916 posts
Jan 29, 2010
8:32 AM
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Shanester- I never got good at the piano because of carpal tunnel problems but it's what I learned my theory on, and it's still how I think of flats and sharps in my head. There was a crazy thread around a while back about harmonica inventions. I threw in my crazy ideas. Until I can get some of them built I guess I'm sticking with the diatonic. Crazy harmonica guy gets ready to play!
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o| o - |o
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\(""")/
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/ [----------]
\// \//
// //
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Drat, apparently the forum doesn't support all the spaces I need to make crazy harmonica guy look like crazy harmonica guy. Oh well.
Last Edited by on Jan 29, 2010 8:35 AM
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shanester
88 posts
Jan 29, 2010
8:49 AM
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I think I see him in there!
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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nacoran
920 posts
Jan 29, 2010
9:17 AM
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I guess it's par for the course, after the guitar and bass guys get set up and the drum kit goes up, and the lead singer stakes out a space to jump around in, it's no wonder poor harp guy gets smooshed against the left margin.
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bluzlvr
306 posts
Jan 29, 2010
12:51 PM
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I would recommend learning the modes.
At least the three minor modes - Dorian, Aeolian, and Phrygian.
I learned all the modes on guitar first then transfered them to the harp by ear.
Forth position is cool because in a I,IV,V progression you can use all three modes.
With a C harp in the key of A (4th position) as an exercise play the Aeolian over the I (A), the Dorian over the IV (D) and the Phrygian over the V (E).
I got the idea from watching Jason Ricci's lessons on using the Dorian mode.
After a while you can start mixing it up.
It sounds kind of cool to use the Phrygian on the turn around.
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vicar88
7 posts
Feb 19, 2010
1:05 AM
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Hey guys, I just found this thread! I thought my connection had dropped out when I tried to start it and didn't see it posted, hence I've started a new thread on the same subject. Some really good advice here. Seems like fourth position is the way to go, though I'll have to do some serious woodshedding! Let you know how it goes!
Thanks for all the posts!
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GamblersHand
159 posts
Feb 19, 2010
2:18 AM
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Vicar88 - good to have you back! Try 4th as you say, but as personally I'm a predominantly 2nd position/cross harp player, I found 3rd and 5th more intuitive to pick up.
Bluzlvr - I'd like to know more about your approach to this, as I must admit that I've never quite grasped the benefit of terming harmonica positions by their mode - eg. Dorian, Aeolian, and Phrygian corresponding to 3rd, 4th and 5th positions.
In the rare times I play 5th, I avoid the 5 draw note, which is the flat-2nd note of the scale which seems to define that mode.
Similarly in 3rd position I'll most often avoid the 3 and 7 draw, which is the major 6th note of the scale, which again seems to be the characteristic note of the Dorian mode.
Sometimes if a minor-key song has a IV major then I'd be less worried about the 3 & 7 draw, as the major IV would indicate a major 6th (2nd note of the IV chord triad).
But anyway, essentially I don't worry about the modes, more about the sound of the positions, whether I need bluesy ambiguity with bends on certain notes etc.
Am I missing something fundamnetal here that will make things clearer?
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hvyj
139 posts
Feb 19, 2010
9:57 AM
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In 5th position one also must avoid draw 9 (same note as draw 5, only an octave up).
No avoid notes in 4th position,though, and only one really necessary bend (3D** for root in the lower octave).
Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2010 4:33 PM
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congaron
545 posts
Feb 19, 2010
12:13 PM
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It also depends on if you like to take brief excursions "out of the box" ala rock guitar. Sometimes those "avoid" notes become useful for carefully rendered brief travel outside the box.
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bluzlvr
318 posts
Feb 19, 2010
1:55 PM
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@GamblersHand.
After re-reading my post, I realize it is a little bit vague.
The exercise I came up with in 4th position is used during a I,IV,V progression.
On the I chord (A) on a C harp in A minor I play the Aeolian mode in A.
On the IV chord (D), I play the Dorian mode in D.
On the V chord (E), I play the Phrygian mode in E.
I like to go up and come back down on the harp.
You can use the same idea in 5th position on the I (E) and IV (A) chords.
I would recomend learning each mode one at a time, then go from there.
http://www.myspace.com/jeffscranton
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GamblersHand
160 posts
Feb 19, 2010
2:45 PM
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@bluzlvr
Actually your post was clear - it's just that mine wasn't!
I understand the use of positions, and the relationship to the I IV V.
It's just that I don't get why positions get referred by the various modal names, because I don't find that I actually play the scale of the mode in question (except maybe 4th position).
It just seems that the modes are based on the unbent arrangement of notes for that position. Hence 5th position is Phrygian, mainly because the 5 draw and 9 draw are the flat-2nd, which seems to be the distinctive note in that mode.
But I wouldn't use that precise mode in the music I play, as it's very Arabic/Central Asian to my ears. I would avoid the 5 draw and 9 draw for the fairly prosaic music I play.
Similarly I tend to avoid the 3 draw/ 7 draw major sixth note in 3rd position, even though I think that this is probably the most distinctive characteristic of the Dorian mode.
I guess it's just semantics I'm going on about here, but I think that it's not so much the modes you learn, but the positions, the scales available on them, and the flavour that the scales have against the positions.
..or I could have things wrong and missing something fundamental in my muscial education. Would appreciate any guidance here.
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vicar88
8 posts
Feb 20, 2010
2:10 PM
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Could someone post some tabs for minor blues scales? What is the tab for 4th position blues scale for instance?
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hvyj
140 posts
Feb 20, 2010
4:42 PM
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Blues scale, 4th position: D6 B7 D8 B8* B8 B9 D10
Can't get the flat fifth in the lower octave w/o an OB, so the minor pentatonic scale (which is the same as the blues scale except for omitting the flat fifth) in the lower register is:
D3** B4 D4 B5 B6 D6
Btw, the breath pattern for the minor pentatonic scale in 4th position is the same as the breath pattern for the major pentatonic scale in 1st position. Same notes, same intervals, different starting point.
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hvyj
141 posts
Feb 20, 2010
4:48 PM
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Blues scale, 5th position: B2 D2/B3 D3** D3* D3 D4 B5
No flat fifth in the upper octave w/o an OB, so the minor pentatonic scale in the upper register is:
B5 B6 D6 D7 D8 B8 -- B9 is a flat 3d above, which is useful.
Btw, the breath pattern for the minor pentatonic scale in 5th position is the same as the breath pattern for the major pentatonic scale in 2d position. Same notes, same intervals, different starting point.
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2010 6:25 AM
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vicar88
9 posts
Feb 20, 2010
10:29 PM
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Thanks for that. How do you get a 2 step bend on the 4 draw?
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hvyj
143 posts
Feb 21, 2010
6:24 AM
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You don't. I made a typographical error. Blues scale, 5th position CORRECTED: B2, D2/B3 D3** D3* D3 D4 B5.
I have now edited the original post to correct the error.
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2010 3:00 AM
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hvyj
144 posts
Feb 21, 2010
6:32 AM
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Btw, one does not use a "blue third" when playing minor. Fourth, Fifth and Third Positions give you a true minor third without having to bend which is what must be played for correct minor tonality.
The only blue note that can be slurred or bent imprecisely and still sound right when playing blues in a minor key is the flat fifth (D3* in 5th position, B8* in 4th position, D6* in 3d position).
I play in minor keys quite a bit. I'm often asked if use minor tuned harps, but I've actually never owned or played a minor tuned harp. I don't OB either. It's a matter of being able to get around in multiple positions on a Richter tuned harp and knowing which harp to play in which position for a particular tune--which really isn't all that difficult to do.
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2010 6:56 AM
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hvyj
145 posts
Feb 21, 2010
6:37 AM
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Easy oversimplified formula for playing minor blues in 5th position: Avoid Draw 5 and Draw 9, and don't bend anything but Draw 3.
There's actually more to it than that, and there are some other bends that can be used on certain chords, but if this oversimplified formula is followed, it's actually pretty hard to hit a really bad note playing minor key blues in 5th.
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2010 6:38 AM
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vicar88
10 posts
Feb 22, 2010
12:18 AM
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OK, there's a lot of info to take in here. What I'm planning to do is write out in a table the blues scale, root notes and which notes to avoid in each position for minor blues and try them all out and see which one is most comfortable for me to play. Let you know how it goes. Could take a while.....
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GamblersHand
166 posts
Feb 22, 2010
1:06 AM
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hvyj - I think there's an error in your corrected tab four posts above - the first note of the scale is 2B. Your scale above that is ok though
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hvyj
148 posts
Feb 22, 2010
3:01 AM
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Yeah, sometimes i think typos are what i do best. Thanks, i just corrected it.
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hvyj
149 posts
Feb 22, 2010
3:12 AM
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@vicar88: That's one way to do it. But I think it's easier to learn the common pentatonic breath patterns and move them from position to position (memorizing the root notes for each). That way, remembering which notes to avoid in which position becomes easier since you have the pattern as a reference point.
I use 5th, 4th and 3rd for minors depending on the tune. 3rd for dorian minors, 5th or 4th for natural minors depending on whether i need a major second for the particular tune. Playing in 5th is a lot like playing in 2d and playing in 4th is a lot like playing in 1st.
There are no avoid notes in 4th. If you are playing dorian minor (flat third, major sixth, flat seventh) in 3rd, there are no avoid notes in 3rd, either, BUT if you are playing natural minor in 3rd (flat third, flat sixth, flat seventh), you MUST avoid playing major sixths. Personally, i don't use 3rd for natural minor tunes. Btw, with appropriate bends, it is also possible to play harmonic minor (flat third, flat sixth, major seventh) using 4th, but i haven't actually tried doing it in performance.
A really useful/helpful thing to do when figuring out different positions is to look at diagrams showing all the notes available on all 12 keys of Richter tuned harmonicas. These are available on the Suzuki website.
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2010 4:41 AM
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vicar88
11 posts
Feb 22, 2010
5:32 AM
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Those diagrams are great but they don't show all the notes you can get by bending. I'm trying to base my learning on the c harp as I've got David Barrett's diagram in front of me, and change key by changing harp.
How many breath patterns are there? I'm used to 2nd pos blues scale 2-6 and starting to learn 3rd pos 4-8. Can I just transpose them start on another hole to get another position then?
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hvyj
151 posts
Feb 22, 2010
9:19 AM
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@vicar88: Barrett's stuff only deals w/ 3 positions. It's good as far as it goes, but it only deals with 1st, 2d and 3rd positions and it only deals with playing blues. C harp gives you E natural minor in 5th position, A natural minor in 4th position and D dorian minor in 3rd position.
Using all the notes you can get by bending will take you out of minor tonality. If you go back through my various posts under this topic, in different posts I point out what bends you CAN use playing minor in 5th and 4th positions. Barrett's stuff and a lot of other instructional materials deal w/ 3rd.
I put up a post under this topic on 1/26/10 explaining in detail which pentatonic scales have common breath patterns in which positions. The MINOR pentatonic scale is basically the same as the blues scale. To play the minor pentatonic scale you just leave out the flat fifth of the blues scale and play a true minor third instead of a blue third (first, flat third, fourth, fifth, flat seventh). The MAJOR pentatonic scale consists of the first, second, major third, fifth and sixth of the scale. Take a look at that 1/26 post and let me know if it answers your question.
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2010 9:28 AM
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vicar88
12 posts
Feb 22, 2010
11:19 AM
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What I meant was that Barrett's diagram shows you all the notes you can get from a C harp (without overblows/draws). The suzuki ones only give you basic draw and blow notes.
I'm still working through your post about breath patterns!
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HarpNinja
205 posts
Feb 22, 2010
11:19 AM
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The song, "Karma King" at the MySpace link below is played in 4th position. It is almost like playing first position over the I, 3rd over the IV, and 2nd over the V.
4th isn't as juicy for blues as third because of where the bends lay out, but if you can play the 4ob or 8 blow bend, you can pull it off...especially if you play the chord changes.
With a true minor blues, it works best, IMO, to stay away from 2nd as most players play the flat 3 too sharp to really be a flat 3. 3rd position lays out perfectly and you can add the 3/7/10' draw or 3'/6ob/10" to color the song witha Dorian or Aeolian feel.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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HarpNinja
206 posts
Feb 22, 2010
11:22 AM
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David Barrett does have a scales book that talks about more positions than just 1, 2, and 3, but it doesn't label them as 4th, 5th, and 12th, etc....I think it gives you the specific scale as it would relate to each note of of the C Major scale. It gives you several scale choices for each position.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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vicar88
13 posts
Feb 22, 2010
11:26 AM
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I'm being really thick here I know, but it's a wood/trees thing I'm sure. Can you just tab out for me the major pentatonic in 2nd and the the minor in 5th? Maybe if I play them together it'll become obvious.
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hvyj
152 posts
Feb 22, 2010
12:55 PM
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As far as available bends go, they are the same on all Richter tuned harps. You don't really need a diagram for all keys if you've got one for C. It's not hard to figure out the note names of the bent notes from the Suzuki diagrams if you just give it a little thought.
Okay, Major Pentatonic scale in second position (lower octave):
2D/3B 3D** 3D 4D 5B 6B
Minor Pentatonic scale in fifth position (lower octave):
2B 2D/3B 3D** 3D 4D 5B
Now, playing in second position, 2B is the sixth of the scale. In fifth position 2B is root. The common breath pattern remains the same, but the particular holes are different degrees of the scale in each respective position. But the important thing to recognize is that the relationships between the intervals remains the same=common breath pattern.
So you learn to play the major pentatonic scale in second and you've automatically learned to play the minor pentatonic scale in fifth. Get it? Add the flat fifth (3*) to it when playing in fifth and now you've got the blues scale in fifth.
You may need to extend the scale down below root and up above octave root in order to transpose between positions, but the intervals stay constant which means the breath pattern stays the same. For example, when you are playing the minor pentatonic scale in fifth using B2 for root you are also playing the major pentatonic scale in second but starting on the sixth below root --it's the SAME NOTES in each scale, you just use a different note for root in each position The particular position you wind up playing in depends on what harp you select in relation to the key of the tune you are playing.
This is all because the relative minor of a particular major key and the relative major of a particular minor key are made up of the same notes. It's the same identical scale, just starting on a different note for root. Playing a C harp in second position gives you G major. Playing a C harp in fifth position gives you E minor, which is the relative minor of G major The G major and E minor scales are exactly the same--they have the identical notes, you just start on a different note for root.
Now, when you play a C harp in C (first position) the relative minor is A (fourth position) so the major pentatonic scale in first position is the same breath pattern as the minor pentatonic scale in fourth position. Why? Because each scale is made up of the same notes, you just start on a different note for root. See how this works? Don't make it harder than it is.
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2010 1:37 PM
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hvyj
153 posts
Feb 22, 2010
11:00 PM
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@vicar88 Well, did this make sense to you? Probably TMI, but the common scales (relative major/relative minor) and the associated common breath patterns are, IMHO, the easiest way to learn to play in multiple positions. So far as I am aware, there are no instructional materials that discuss this, but it's a very practical method.
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vicar88
14 posts
Feb 23, 2010
12:10 AM
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Seems to make sense. I'm going to find some jam tracks in minor keys and give it as go. Thanks for the help.
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hvyj
155 posts
Feb 23, 2010
4:23 AM
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Personally, i think a player learns more and learns better playing with other musicians rather than playing with jam tracks, so you may want to get a hold of your friend that plays guitar.
But if you are going to be playing to minor jam tracks, know whether they are natural minor or dorian minor so you can choose the right harp.
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