you can play most of the same things on both harps
im going to compare harp to guitar. you can have a squire guitar and a USA fender strat you can play the same songs on both guitars. but the squire will have high action an hurt your fingers.
you can have a stock marine band an a custom. you can play the same songs on both harps. but the stock one will require more force an be less comfortable to play. where the custom will be equal from hole to hole draw an blow an very responsive.
on your squire guitar it would be realy hard to finger tap cause of the high action an crappy pickups. on the fender the action will be low an have nice pickups an finger tappin would be much easier.
on your stock marine band over blows will squeel an be hard to manage if at all. on a custom it will flow like butter an sound like a regular note that should be there.
in conclusion you can basically do the same things on both but its a matter of comfort, plus those little things that might annoy some people where they'd rather have the high quality version. ie: the sqeeling over blow or the high action on the frets.
but what it all really comes down to in the end is the talent of the player. ----------
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2010 3:41 PM
the thing i dont like the most about stock harps is the responsiveness. you lightly blow for draw any single note an there is a split second before the note actually sounds. on a custom its instant. ----------
Interesting that you compare the Squire and the USA Fenders Jon.
According to all the guitarists I know apparently the first Fender Squire guitars were actually superior to the USA Fenders of the same period. Of course that has changed somewhat now and they are indeed of lesser quality.
The Crossover from what I understand is a higher end stock harp which makes it supposedly closer to, but still not as good as a custom.
Jon, the split second silence issue you mention is addressed in Joe Spiers gapping videos and can be fixed on virtually any stock harp with some re-gapping and patience.
stock, clearly. Very decent harp, but stock. Give them employees at Trossingen ten extra minutes to work on each harp and you'll get a phantastic - stock - harp.
To make a custonm it takes more. Let alone tuning requires that you pick the plates up several times with at least one day delay between the tuning approaches.
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2010 3:57 PM
"jon on, the split second silence issue you mention is addressed in Joe Spiers gapping videos and can be fixed on virtually any stock harp with some re-gapping and patience."
yes but then once you do that its not stock any more. its "slightly modified" from its original. im talking about right out of the box i wanna play the instrument, not drive home get my tools take it aparts an spend time gapping an checking till its right an putting it back together. ----------
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2010 3:59 PM
The liner notes of Kim's Lookin for Trouble mention Filisko harps. Joe gets a personal thanks as well. Buddha means enlightened. Not necessarily nice. Lol.
Do no harm. ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
Kingly, I think the blister packs were just a metaphor.
Like I said before, I think from a marketing and price point point of view it makes sense to have upscale versions of your flagship product. It's the same reason car companies offer more expensive stereo options than the standard system... to make more money.
I think it's also kind of funny that we've mentioned the Marine Band, the Marine Band Deluxe, and the Marine Band Crossover, (I think someone even mentioned the crappy Marine Band MS series) but no one has mentioned that, at least if you go by nameplates, the Special 20 is a Marine Band too. Toyota is supposed to be bringing out an expanded line of Prius's, Prii? what's the plural of Prius?
Another thing that's been mentioned is how the backs on Marine Bands have evolved over time. Opening up the backs on harmonicas is all the rage. I've done it on a few harps myself, and I like the way they sound better myself. They project better.
That said, two of my favorite harps are nearly closed backs. I can't hear them as well, but when I have them miked they have a much warmer tone than any of my other harps. One of them also has impossibly thin covers that are always bending.
For the record, the cover came off of a harmonica my brother found for me at a garage sale. My best guess is it is one of the cheap promotional harmonica covers that you can get stamped with your company logo slapped on a set of Hohner Piedmont reeds. It's a G harp. I think the more you spend on a harmonica the less likely you are to get a dud. That said, sometimes you get lucky with a cheapo.
Jon, You can just take it out of the box and play it. Chances are though it just won't respond to you perfectly.
However in the same way that you take a guitar home and then set up the action to suit your particular needs, you gap harmonicas. So in that sense virtually any musical instrument that can be "tweaked" is "slightly modified" by most players.
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2010 4:05 PM
Kingly, that last post of mine took a while. I started writing it when your post 740 was the last post on the page. Now, nearly a page later, I finally got it!
And how long has this thread taken? When it started I knew this guy named Jonsparrow. He was a young impulsive kind of guy who could always keep a thread at the edge of exploding. Now he's retired, lives in a nursing home and when he isn't telling the kids to get off his lawn he is calming down threads by helping everyone find common ground! :)
"Give them employees at Trossingen ten extra minutes to work on each harp and you'll get a phantastic - stock - harp."
That is precisely what Hohner ought to do, Pimpinella: Most Fender Custom Shop guitars are not special-ordered customs, they're stock models that have been carefully assembled/set up by skilled luthiers so that they play well and sound like they ought to, right off the rack.
Imagine if Hohner had a Custom Shop operation where skilled workers gapped/tuned diatonics by hand, like in the prewar days. The "one-size-fits-all" gapping formula they used then plays great for traditional purposes and enables an easy 6OB. That covers what most buyers want. Hohner can do that much cheaper than a customiser because the factory doesn't have to spend time disassembling the harp or dealing with tuning marks, etc.
Then a buyer could walk into their local music store and buy a Hohner Custom Shop diatonic that played well, for a small premium over stock price. A newbie could trust that harp to learn on. A pro could buy quality backups for customs. A few Custom Shop specials in many stores could make a big difference.
Never mind about OB setup or other advanced customising, even on special order. Too hard to run the shop operation that way. Just churn out well-adjusted stockers like they did in the old days, maybe do special tunings like 7-limit JI. Offer repair/refurbish service at a flat rate.
When I was a kid, my crappy piano really held me back: the action made me shed blood when glissing.
Still, that piano was off the crappyness scale. Stock 1896s and Sp20s ARE NOT CRAPPY. Sure, you'll get the odd duff with any harp.
God, this is pointless. I can't be bothered typing anymore, except to say:
BEGINNERS, JUST MAKE SURE YOU GET AN OK HARP THAT IS USED BY AT LEAST SOME PROFESSIONALS, AND YOUR PROGRESS SHOULDN'T BE HINDERED BY THE HARP. MOST PLAYERS START OUT THAT WAY ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
"Most Fender Custom Shop guitars are not special-ordered customs, they're stock models that have been carefully assembled/set up by skilled luthiers so that they play well and sound like they ought to, right off the rack."
LOL. I know a few of the Fender Custom Shop "luthiers" the fender custom luthiers are required to have a HS diploma and the ability to accept $8.00 an hour to be treated like shit.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
"LOL. I know a few of the Fender Custom Shop "luthiers" the fender custom luthiers are required to have a HS diploma and the ability to accept $8.00 an hour to be treated like shit."
I don't know what the word is for someone who can set up a guitar well for money, as opposed to build one nearly from scratch, so I used "luthier" because that's what the guitar techs are called in my town. However much of a point that is. But I never said it was a great deal for the workers, only for the buyers. Hohner used to do it as piecework prewar, is what I heard: churn them out as fast as you can. But a human being actually doing the gapping and ensuring the final gaps were approximately right according to a reliable formula was far better than today's machine slamming in a shim that's no real formula and the reeds springing back to wherever they feel like.
The fact that a worker need not be very skilled in order to gap a diatonic to the Hohner prewar formula--in fact, need not even be able to play a harmonica--in no way diminishes what a real customiser does.
Production line pickup winders for Rio Grande or whoever don't make big money either. Lotta factory jobs are like that.
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2010 4:55 PM
htownfess, I wasn't avoiding anything, simply wasn't addressing your post at all. I saw the Fender custom shop bit and thought I'd share what I know about it.
It wasn't a dig on you at all.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
"However in the same way that you take a guitar home and then set up the action to suit your particular needs, you gap harmonicas. So in that sense virtually any musical instrument that can be "tweaked" is "slightly modified" by most players. "
if that action wasnt good on a guitar i would not buy the guitar. thats why you get to play guitars before you buy them. ----------
Buddha, my apologies then & editing done to reflect same. I do think that an operation like I sketched would be to Hohner's corporate advantage, and the consumer's, if not the worker's. Harps like that would be a good gateway drug in terms of getting newbies through the learning process and tempting people to upgrade to real customs once they run up against the limitations of the factory-tweaked harp.
I get the impression that Seydel does a version of that type of operation, but of course it doesn't have the Fender/Gibson-size impact that a Hohner one would.
(blush) I recently subscribed to Jimi Lee's channel on youtube. Almost entirely due to his beautiful rendition of the classic jazz tune Comin' Home Baby. (His most recent upload) Basically, its a more thorough version of the same song Adam uploaded for us when they played together I love the way Jimi speaks, no, SINGS with the harp. I first fell in love with the harp as it pertains to replacing vocals in a tune. I appreciate Jazz, but I cant say that I believe it is light years ahead of blues. Both require a feeling unique to the music, and have many similarities. Theres no doubt that a custom harp yields some advantages to it's owner regardless of skill level, but a pricey harp for a beginner, to me, is like giving a kid just learning to drive, a porsche for their 16th birthday. I bought my second C harp, a Sp20 OTB, maybe two months ago, and it is the closest thing to heaven I have ever played. It it NOTICEABLY easier to play than any of my other harmonicas, it plays with the slightest of breath, no leaks whatsoever, and I can overblow the 5 and 6 hole having never touched it. What Im saying is, if THAT harp is anything like the customs, it took me almost a year to figure out the difference. ---------- Kyzer's Travels
It is good to know that my hard work and practicing 5 hours a day is noticeable to more than just myself! For a $30 harmonica I expect to practice to have to play it. For $180 a pop, the B-rad better make me the second coming of Little Walter through osmosis in my sleep.
"They came out with the MB Deluxe because of the success of the Hering 1923 Vintage Harp"
I'm surprised if this is true. My 1923s are in E and F# - unusual keys, therefore I wanted cheap harps.
I was gapping the F# last night - the reedplates are very badly engineered with lumps and bumps and gouges taken out of them. The gouge taken out of the underside of the top plate is so bad that the 2 blow gap is good on the left, but more than twice as big on the right!
In future if I want a cheap harp in a strange key, I'll probably buy a Big River. ---------- Kinda hot in these rhinos!
Last Edited by on Jan 29, 2010 12:22 PM
@everybody: Whew! The flood done been here and gone. If I tried to respond to all that has transpired, my Friday would be decimated.
So I'll just say: next to earthquakes in Haiti, blister packs strike me as minor disturbances.
Buddha and I are, I trust we may stipulate, both excellent harmonica teachers, each in our own way, and our names will live on through those we have inspired.
I'm more of a jazz&funk-tinged blue guy; he's more of a groove-jazz/allmusic guy. And that's......okay. There's room enough for all of us, AND our friends and students and dogs.
For the record, I really like the custom MB harp that I bought from Joe Spiers. But I also really like my OTB Marine Bands. My particular way of playing has evolved in such close concert with that particular harp that it's hard for me to be objective. I'm able to do ALMOST everything I want to do, in a musical way, on OTB Marine Bands. The moment I heard somebody (T.J. Klay) do something that I knew I could NOT do on my harps--he played a high G softly, with complete control on sustained overblows--was the moment I said, "Now is the time to cross over to the dark side." But here's the thing: the music that excites ME these days, that I want to work out on my instrument, isn't really that kind of stuff. I'm trying to reconfigure myself as a one-man band, and all I'm interested in is the challenge of fusing harp, drums, and vocals into something that actually holds together. That's where I am. Given that fact, I'm disinclined to experiment too much with the harp side. I need to be able to count on the stability of that element.
But I think it's great, just fantastic, that there's this much ferment in the contemporary harmonica world. The passion is terrific. Now turn off the computer and go practice!
"The sky is blue." "No, the grass is green!" "No, it's not! The sky is blue!" "You're wrong! The grass is green!"
Can't we all agree that for the most part, quality harps out of the box are good and have plenty of great playing in them? And that customizing improves them? And that the argument is whether the improvement is worth the cost? And that would boil it all down to opinions, and you know what they say about opinions...
By the way, I don't think I'm the only one who wants to know who the "dick" made cry. Come on, spill it!
"Can't we all agree that for the most part, quality harps out of the box are good and have plenty of great playing in them? And that customizing improves them? And that the argument is whether the improvement is worth the cost? And that would boil it all down to opinions, and you know what they say about opinions..."
No.
No serious player in my book plays untweaked out of the box harps.
I'm not going to say who but if Adam wants to admit it, then that up to him.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Of course we also have to note that "tweaked" and "customised" are different things. A tweaked harp for example can be a harp that just has some re-gapping done to it. Whilst a true custom harp has the whole enchilda.
Steve Guyger, Annie Raines and Tom Ball all play "tweaked" harps as far as I'm aware.
Jason Ricci, Kim Wilson and Dennis Gruenling all play fully customised harps as far as I'm aware.
Of course I agree that even a tweaked harp isn't then truly "out of the box"
Last Edited by on Jan 29, 2010 12:39 PM
"No serious player in my book plays untweaked out of the box harps."
You are way out there my man. Sonny Terry played untweaked out of the box harps, so did junior wells, and I could name a lot more. I play stock marine bands and made a living off them for 20 years, including being a hohner endorsee. Since you like to blow your horn without naming names, to support your opinions, I will blow mine with some names most people will reconize- my fans include Bob Dylan, Joey Ramone, Charlie Sexton, Michael Been, Robbie Robertson, and there are a lot more on my bio page. they heard my playing, on stock MB's - no modifications. I have done soundtracks for NBC specials, was courted by Roger Slovine, the president of ASCAP, blah, blah, blah. Point being, that if you can make the sounds you like with a stock harp, why go any further? I have no interest in overblowing and all this ultra responsiveness that comes with a custom harp. This is a new turn in harp playing, that to be honest, does nothing for me. I was raised on the MB and still love it just as it is. If you want to go customized then great, but to make such a blanket statement shows your arrogance and ignorance. The posts I have read by you are the perfect example of the power the internet gives anyone who wants to declare themselves a superhero. I have never heard of your line of harps, but if someone would give me the info I would appreciate it so I can tell all I know that buying from this guy is bad mojo. Why do you all tolerate such an idiot? Back in my playing days with the old blues guys such a hack would have been found laid out in a dumpster. I am checking out of this forum. I am moving on. Places that allow such arogant types are a waste of my time. I wish everyone well. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
thanks Todd. I am gone. I post on the bushman forum. Posters like buddha don't last there very long. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2010 3:41 PM
