Given all the rigmarole that's gone down in the original overblow thread, I thought we needed a new thread for actual discussion of the overblow technique itself. The other thread is great, but it is what it is, and this thread is NOT MEANT TO BE THAT THREAD. So let's keep the discussion on this thread centered on things like "What IS an overblow?", "How do you oveblow?", "How do you use them in a musical context?", etc. etc.
As I'm just now starting to fully tame my overblows, and incorporate them into my playing, I've noticed that the difficulty of overblows is not a technical or physical one. It is a psychological one.
I really think that the reason I originally found it so difficult to overblow wasn't because the technique is so physically demanding or different from anything else we do on the harp that it needs some massive almost impossible amount of physical will to learn it. I think it was the mystique surrounding it that kept me from allowing myself to believe it was as easy as it actually is!
The first chink put into this psychological barrier was the vid by Jason Ricci where he says that he uses the same mouth position he uses to bend the note in the same hole. This was a revelation to me. using this logic I got my first squealy squeeky overblows. I strained my damn lips on those bastards!
The next brick to come out of that wall was Chris Michalek telling my why and how harps need to be set up for oveblows. It's just GAPPING! An non OB gapped harp can be made to overblow, but only if you already have strong OB technique. Trying to learn to OB on a misgapped harp will be very frustrating because the range of mouth shapes that constitute the "sweet spot" to get an OB will be much smaller than the range of mouth shapes that will work with a a properly gapped harp. In other words, on a misgapped harp (like so many OTB harps are), if you don't put your mouth into just the right shape, you won't get an overblow to even sound, much less to be in tune. On the other hand, a properly gapped harp will give you a bit more leeway in terms of mouth shape to get that OB to sound. Even then you still have to work on it to figure out the optimum mouth shape that gives the best tone and control. A fully customized and set up harp gives you an even better ability to control your OB's than just a properly gapped one.
The last brick to fall has been the short post Joe Spiers made on the original overblow thread, which, unfortunately, got buried too quickly in all the other stuff that was/is going on there. He basically said (and I'm parpphrasing from memory here) that, much like bending, you can OB from the front of the mouth (using the tip of the tongue to manipulate the space) or you can do it from the back of the mouth/top of the throat. I'd been OBing from the front of my mouth, and I was finding that OB's were hard to hit, control, and make sound right. I have long been bending from the back of my mouth though. So I gave back-of-the-mouth OB'ing a shot, and it was like night and day! Easy to hit straight (ie. not from the natural blow note first), easy to control (less squeeky!), easy to sustain, and I'm finally able to start manipulating the pitch (what JR calls "bending" the OB).
So in short, I have found that OB's are NOT crazy difficult things that only super harp geniuses can do. They are just like any other technique. they take work to learn to do, to control, and then to use. Like many techniques, a properly set up harp WILL HELP TREMENDOUSLY. And PROPER INSTRUCTION from a knowledgeable source is VERY VALUABLE, and will save you time and frustration, but they are not impossible to learn on your own.
My suzuki harpmasters were difficult for me to play due to tight gaps...when i was brand new to the harp and bending. Overblow was not even a word I knew. It turns out, after several more months of practice on a variety of harps, the harpmasters overblow great and I can even bend the 6 hole ob up and down while sustaining it. The key for me seems to be reducing the overall breath force, ala bbq Bob. The lighter I play, the easier it is for me to overblow, on the tightly gapped harpmasters. On my marine bands, the breath force is slightly higher, but still consistent from normal notes to bent notes to overblown notes. On all my harps, i have reduced the overall force A LOT in the last few months and find it much easier to sustain ALL the notes for very long times..even a whole 12 bars if i want to.
Breath force...I find it needs to be light and consistent to overblow. No increase at least.
I'm the old dog trying to learn a new trick as far as OBs go. I'm able to hit them on 6(only one I've really tried, honestly), but not consistently, and not at all pleasing to my ear. But, I know they are there, and i will eventually get them to sound the best I can manage. Will I ever fully incorporate them into my playing? Only time will tell. I wish they were common knowledge back when I began playing, and I'd have the technique down, plus an ear and mouth trained to use them at will. Kudos to you that are doing this right out of the gate. ---------- Todd L. Greene, V.P.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 3:03 PM
Overblows rock! good thread. Done well, anything is good, done poorly, anything isn't good.
I am getting consistent 6OBs and now working them better, I play SP20s I have gapped for regular playing and not specifically for OBs although I am not sure there is much difference and seem to be getting along just fine.
I don't practice them that often as I focus more on tone, jamming and getting cool ryhtmic things happening but I am looking forward to getting good enough at them to use them on stage.
I want to have OBs there for when I feel the need to hit them. Cause done well they are a cool addition.
I am getting some Bushman harps in the mail soon (I hope they come soon) and look forward to trying them on those harps too.
Here's an excerpt from a recent Howard Levy interview on Harmonica 411:
H411: Is it fair to say that there are a whole lot of other good things you can learn besides over blows, before trying to incorporating it into ones playing... especially for the beginner, novice or even proficient player?
HL: Oh Yeah…I was the exception as I learned how to do all these things within the first few months of playing, as I had already been playing piano for 10, 11 years. For me, here’s an instrument that doesn’t have all the notes on it (looking down at his harp with a faux quizzical look) “what wrong with this thing, how can it NOT have all the notes on it, it MUST have all the notes on it??” (Laughing). That was my basic orientation; to try to figure out how to play the flat 3rd in the 2nd octave or a major 7th in cross harp! For me, in order to feel like I can play music – and not just blues licks - on this instrument, it drove me to find this stuff out when I was 18. SO I think there are players coming along who hear me play, and know something about music, who are going to want to integrate this into their playing at an early stage If someone is there to show you…and I can teach this very well….then you can hit these notes. Of course, I didn’t sound really great playing those notes for the first year. I used to be afraid to try to hit them in public when I was 18 or 19 but I practiced and got better and better AND I knew nothing about the harmonica back then. I never opened up a harmonica to adjust reed clearances for the first 10 years or maybe even more.
I was as a piano player…piano players don’t usually know anything about the instrument. They never look at the action of a piano, take it apart and go “yeah, the jack needs adjusting” It’s not a hands-on instrument, so my approach to the harmonica was not hands-on as well. If I had been a guitar player or a flute player, someone who was actively changing the bridge or the nut, maybe I would have opened the harps. I show this as well in the school, some rudimentary stuff on the harp…how to open it up, pushing reed closer into the reeds into the reed plates to make it easier to get the over draw and over blows. So it won’t be a painful experience for you.
My experiences are similar. Spent months trying to OVER-blow. In that time I picked up some useful things like how to set up a harmonica & various methods of achieving the overblow (remember the tons of methods you tried to get a bend to,lol?). Pretty much all the information picked up from the internet and these forums. Just a few weeks ago I got one of my harmonicas set up so that I could hit and sustain a very clear 6 overblow. I think there's a number of little things that make it work for me & I bet it's different for everybody. I think a little bit of every method got me there but really I'm doing an 8 blow bend on the 6 blow and it pops out if my embouchure is correct. I'm still fixing the embouchure on the 4 overblow ;) . I'll worry about the 5 overblow another month, lol. Though, I find now that I can hit a 6 overblow on some of my harps I haven't even touched the gap on. I'm in agreement with what isaacullah is saying above.
---------- ~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Bro's im still confused ok i TB talk what are you doing inside the mouth chamber to get the overblow,, now for me TB Blow bend my tongue is on the combe i raise the back of my tongue up much,,like when you see a cat stretching paws and head stretched low on the floor and tail raised high,,with the mouth chamber full of Pressure,,i don't know how to do it give it to me i can't see any diss adantages of learning a new technic,,Did Grass hopper say no master i think you show of when you do the roaring thunder movement i don't need it,,no chance i bet Grass Hopper can Blow or Onver blow master would not let him out of the tempble with out the Roaring thunder movement Technic,,
Nasty: I edited my orignal post above to hopefully make it more clear. Yeah, you need to gap your harps right. that's the first thing man! Search for Choppa Joe on YouTube, and look at his videos on gapping. Sart on the hole 6 OB on a mid-lo key harp. Get an A or a Bb harp and gap 6 blow and 6 draw down so that they are pretty tight. You don't want them totally choked, but you want them tighter than "normal". Then, yeah, use that back of the tongue technique you have. Move it around back there. do it in slow increments. Try to first get the note to choke out. That's the blow reed stopping. That's good! Now, get to that point, and BACK DOWN on the back pressure a bit. Try to find the sweet spot. It's tight! Try to get that rattley squeeky shrilly sound out. You are almost there! If you hear that, you let go TOO much. Ramp up the back pressure a bit... Soon you here that tone pop out! then you won't be able to get it again right away. That's fine. Go away from the harp, and forget about it for a day. Then try all over again.. You'll get it brother! ---------- ------------------ The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 4:33 PM
" Everybody, including you, Adam, is talking about overblows. I want to learn to overblow. Help!
You might start with www.overblow.com . If that doesn't answer your questions, here's a description recently offered by master overblower Chris Michalek. He describes two things: how to bend, then how to overblow. To overblow, substitute BLOWING for DRAWING in his first description:
"Get a drinking straw. Yep, just a plain old drinking straw and stick it in your mouth and start sucking. Now move the open end of the straw while you are sucking, up towards the ceiling. You may feel the air constrict, DON'T LET IT. Maintain a full airstream, if you can get a full stream of air while sucking on a straw that is ALMOST straight up and down you can bend a note. Keep sucking air, pull out the straw and replace with a harp. The note will bend!
"Do the opposite for overblows. This was tested en masse last week at SPAH [the annual meeting of the Society for the Preservation and Advancement of the Harmonica], where I got at least 22 people to OB in about 20 seconds and they did it on stock harps many of which were lee oskars." "
I never really understood this approach, maybe someone can explain it to me. ---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 9:27 PM
The next problem is what to do with them. The same could be asked of bends. This is a musical question. One of the biggest draw backs in general is we don't have a lot of method books for harmonica in general and would teach you. You have Howard site and that seems to be it. His materials are great but Out of the Box is not for the faint of heart. Vol. 2 really had the exercises for Vol.1 but it never came out.
There are tons of method books and etudes for other instruments but we have little. I said this to Cham ber Huang and he joked with me and said "I made my first million you do it"LOL
Jon, the 5 and 6 overblow were sounding pretty good, but remember to bend them up into tune. They were coming out pretty flat, but when you started bending the 6 up and down you were making it up to the right pitch, you just want to make sure to bend up and hold it there. And then of course once you can regularly hit at pitch then you can bend it up or down for expression and such. I find I have to practice on every harp to get all the overblows in tune, and it's something that I'll need to keep working on for a long time (just like the bends on 3 draw). I also find that some holes on some harps (on certain holes) I'm able to hit the right pitch pretty easily and it doesn't feel like I'm bending it up much. But then on other key harps (on certain holes) the pitch seems to naturally come out a lot flatter and I have to bend it up really far. Sometimes if my harp hasn't been set up just right I find that I can't even bend it up far enough just to get it in pitch on those certain holes. So that can be frustrating.
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2010 7:24 AM
Thanks for sharing a vid! I think it illustrates how the obs can be found on a harp with minimal work on the harp and still have the same volume and punch. However, when trying to hit the ob in pitch and with the best tone, gapping isn't always enough. I bet if you tried bending them to pitch and then up semitone or two, they would squeal.
I think of the 4ob on nearly every harp for example. You can set it up, but by the time you get it in pitch with full tone, it squeals and honks in nearly every key. Some of this is a technique issue, but if you are nailing the 5 and 6, it might be that the harp needs more work.
When people ask me about obing right out of the box, I always comment that while you can find the note, it isn't going to play well in the long run. I have a GM in B that I am currently working on. I have only done the reed work and not any dampening, tuning, or comb work. It is like 95% there in terms of playability, but I still get some noise from the reed closing that shouldn't be there and I hit the ob in tune. Same with the overdraws. I would totally play that harp even in a studio session, but where my technique is as good as it is going to get, the instrument can still give me more.
Diggs,
You end up having to transpose books to different keys and positions. It is a good exercise but a lot more work, lol.
FWIW, I subscribe to the Buddha's thoughts on trying to not use the overblows if something else will sound better. I actually find that I play them most in a blues setting than rock or funk because I am much more likely to play 3rd or 12th. Even when I do 11th, I don't always hit the 4 or 6 obs.
I will post a couple of 11th position samples some time today. ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
Live the harp solo is longer and I usually use the whole major scale, but here is a solo in 11th using only the major pentatonic and no overblows. This is just the rough mix and will probably only be up to download the next couple of hours.
Here is the B harp with only gapping. It plays way better now that I've actually set it up. I think the solo ends with a 6ob held with vibrato. It might be a little flat, I dunno. This is from a gig a couple of summers ago and was the first time I played 11th live.
I really want to post a version of Little Wing with a backing track, but need to figure out how to do that and keep the levels in check. I might just record the next gig. We'll see.
---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
Have I misunderstood something? You are playing a B harp in 2nd position in this vid, aren't you? ---------- Kinda hot in these rhinos!
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2010 7:58 AM
No, it should be a B harp in 11th. The song is in F#m I think, but the vamp I am playing over is in A major. You could think of it like 2nd position minor pentatonic...2, 3', 4+, 4, 5, 6+...but the 3' and 6ob are the tonic.
The major scale in this position would be 3', 4+, 4, 4ob, 5, 6, 6+, 6ob.
If you are trying to play 11th without the obs, I guess you could also think of it as playing in 3rd using the minor pentatonic too, but again, you'd be missing the tonic.
I tend to think of positions like modes and then figure out what note or notes of that mode need to be changed to make a new scale.
Like how in 12th you can just flat the 3 draw to go from Lydian to a major scale. ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
Okay, so I'm looking at my tuning charts, and I'm thinking that the temperament a harp is tuned to will affect the degree of "flatness" an OB naturally wants to pop to. All Compromise or Just tunings have draw 6 tuned sharp (as little as 3 cent or as much as 6 cents in some), draw 5 tuned flat (from 10 to 14 cents!), draw 4 from 2 to 4 cents sharp, and draw 1 from 2 to 4 cents sharp. It's the draw reeds acting as an opening reed (ie. opposite from their normal operation) that causes the OB. so I think it safe to assume that it's the tuning of those draw reeds that will affect the "natural" tone of an OB? Plus, since the Golden Melody (and other equal tuned harps) seemed to be the preference for many of the original crew of OBers, could it be that equal tuned harps are easier to get OB's in tune on than compromise or just tuned ones?
All my harps are equally tuned to 443, isaacullah. Not only does it help with obs, but most draw notes tend to flatten if you increase pressure/embouchre. Plus, it give you a little more cut in the mix.
If my blow notes are closer to 442, I am ok with that. ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
I've actually been tuning my harps sharp like that too (442- to 443), for the same reasons. I don't have any equal tuned harps to compare it to, but I'm wondering if you take the same key harp (same brand too, if you want to keep the reed type the same), and gap them the same, and then OB on the same hole... If all that were the same, but the only difference is the temperament, will your OB's sound different? Will the just/compromise tuned harps have OB's that naturally "want" to be flatter/sharper than those from Equal tuned harps? This has to be, doesn't it? ---------- ------------------ The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
Okay, I busted out my tuner and did some quick comparisons of the limited range of harp models I have. I could only do one head to head comparison: a C marine band to a C blues harp. I just did OB's and saw where on the tuner the FIRST OB tone was.
The 6 OB was 40 cents flat on the Marine Band, but 20 cents SHARP on the blues harp!
The 5 OB was 30 cents flat on the Marine Band, and 50 cents flat on the Blues Harp.
The 4 OB was 40 cents flat on the Marine Band and a little more than a semitone flat on the Blues Harp!
I'm not sure if it's that what your going for, but it seems obvious: the flatter the draw reed, the flatter the overblow, and vice versa.
Another thing I'd like to know. Do some reeds overblow flatter than others or is it always X cents above the draw sound? It seems to me as if my MB overblow flatter than my Seydels (when I try to go as low as possible). My MB go down to as close as 20cent from the draw note whereas my 1847 goes to about 35cents. Both are G harps btw.
EDIT: and I'd dare to say that it's pretty much equivalent to the bent notes. I.e. if there are certain kind of reeds that overblow lower then the draw bends of these kind of reeds also go lower (as in the same amount of X cents between lowest bend and blow note as between lowest ob and draw note... that is IF you can compare reeds of a certain kind. i.e. confer them with specific charactersitics) ---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2010 10:49 AM
What it really comes down to is resonance! If you can hear the note in your head, you will adjust by feel. If you practice on the same harp enough. It is hard to go from harp to harp and play the exact same way and get the exact same sound.
Typically, I hear things by intervals and can tell if quickly if I am sharp or flat. In the last 6 mos or so I've been working on trying to be more lyrical by bending in and out of notes and using vibrato (which my body forgot to do in the studio, lol)...actually, I try to think of how a slide moves around a pitch.
Start doing that and play attention to intervals and it will work itself out. ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
GH, my reference is the nearest whole or semitone. ie. the note you are "trying" to get with the OB. So, with the 6 OB on a C harp, the reference note is Bb. My Blues harp goes 20 cents sharp of that Bb, and then I have to bend it down, while my Marine Band goes 30 cents flat of that Bb, and I have to bend it up. I'm using the same technique to get the OB on both harps vis a vis embouchure, mouth size, tongue position, etc. I've also gapped them the same way. ---------- ------------------ The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
By the way, I just checked the tuning of the 6 draw natural (which is an A). The Marine band is tuned 2 cents sharp to this A (following the modern Hohner compromise tuning) and the Blues Harp is tuned 25 cents FLAT to the A (following no known tuning layout!!). This is at A=443.
And, obviously, make sure you're comparing apples to apples. If the harps are tuned differently... ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
"My Blues harp goes 20 cents sharp of that Bb"... but that's your technique.. I don't know how much that has to do with the harp.
I don't think that the frequency where it 'randomly' pops in can be the reference point. I'd say that the lowest frequency that you can reach with the ob should be pretty good as a reference point (and the only fix one I can think of).
I would also be reluctant to take the note that you aim to play with the overblow as a reference point. The pitch varies depending on the tuning you use. But especially depending on how good the harp is tuned (as you and Ninja mentioned) obviously has a huge impact.
To eracidacte all of these variable factors I think the best method to test how exactly the pitch of the ob varies is to take the relative difference in cents between the pitch of the draw note and the lowest ob note/pitch that you can reach. Does that make sense?
---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2010 11:43 AM
"To eracidacte all of these variable factors I think the best method to test how exactly the pitch of the ob varies is to take the relative difference in cents between the draw and the ob note. Does that make sense?"
Yes, that does make sense... So in that case, the 6 hole in my MB OB's to +38 above the natural, and I can bend it down to around +20 cents above the natural. My Blues Harp OB's to +95 cents above the natural, and I can only bend it down to +45 above the natural. ---------- ------------------ The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
So what are these relative differences in pitch related too? Is it the construction (diameters/material) of the reed? Is it about tolerances?
This is especially important not only because of the overblows, but as mentioned above, it's not only the lowest point of the overblows that vary in relative pitch, but just as much the lowest point of the draw bends.
The furhter you can bend the note down the more room you have for musical expression/inflections... it would be really interesting to know what that whole pitch question correlates too. ---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 4:38 PM