arzajac
97 posts
Feb 10, 2010
1:09 PM
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I must have been twelve years old when I first watched The Blues Brothers. I remember that it was on TV on a Saturday night. I laughed so hard that my sides hurt the next day.
In one scene, Elwood enters a house and walks past a woman who asks:
"Are you the police?"
and he answers:
"No ma'am, we're musicians." As if to say that being a musician gave him just as much authority. I know that line was humorous, but it did have a point. It's as though there is something more to it that just enjoying the music or playing it.
That line stuck with me. I couldn't figure out why.
At that time, I was forced by my parents to take organ lessons and play Lawrence Welk-type music by a few incompetent teachers. I hated playing. Although I could play an instrument to some degree, It didn't make me a musician. Not in the same sense as Elwood Blues (who probably never took any formal music lessons to become a musician).
So what do you think makes a person a musician? Is it being able to play? Is it being able to play in public? Is it being able to hold down a job playing music? Or is it something else?
I am still trying to figure that out.
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Elwood
337 posts
Feb 10, 2010
1:17 PM
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Chris Michalek says when people ask him if he has any kids: "Probably."
Then he shrugs and says, "I'm a musician."
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jonsparrow
2202 posts
Feb 10, 2010
1:17 PM
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being a musician is understanding music an being able to make it. an i dont mean play some one elses music. create your own music.
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Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2010 1:18 PM
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LeeEdwards
12 posts
Feb 10, 2010
1:51 PM
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That's a very interesting question. I don't think that there is any one thing alone that defines whether somebody is a musician or not.
Music is an artform, a craft, a language. I think that within every musician there is a desire to fully understand that language. Musicians tend to listen to music more actively and intensely than non musicians.
I know that if a particularly good piece of music is playing in the background whilst I'm having a conversation with friends or family I tend to tune out of the conversation and focus on the music much to the annoyance of my companions. Its as if once I hear that music nothing else in the world matters. I want to know how many horns are in the horn section. I listen for every subtle piece of percussion or what kind of reverb is being employed etc. I want to squeeze every little piece of information I can out of that music.
There then comes the time to replicate interesting ideas on an instrument from all of the inspirational ideas that have been gathered over the years from listening intensely. The reward being the pleasure of playing a raw lick or melody which maybe works, but you know could work better, and crafting it into something that is a joy to play. Knowing the lick or melody works in the right way because you get the same feeling of excitement playing it as you would listening to an awesome piece of music for the very first time.
Does a musician lie in bed at night and imagine playing scales, licks, melodies or construction of harmony. Does a musician wake up in the morning with his first thought being about techniques or a hook, lick etc. I know I do. My wife would tell you that I'm a nightmare to live with and she's probably right.
I think if you are a musician it's something that comes from somewhere very deep inside and it cannot be turned off.
I believe it has nothing to do with whether you make a living off it or play for others. You could be a carpenter or waiter to earn a living, but your job doesn't define what you really are inside.
I could type lots more, but I've rambled on for long enough.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2010 2:00 PM
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Ryan
135 posts
Feb 10, 2010
1:53 PM
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"being a musician is understanding music an being able to make it. an i dont mean play some one elses music. create your own music."
What about the people who play in professional orchestras/symphonies? I'm sure they have the ability to compose their own music, but their skill lies in their ability to bring a written peice of music to life, to interpret it in a way that turns it into an amazing piece of music instead of a bunch of notes. Most/many of them aren't great improvisers, and they spend most of their time bringing other peoples compostions to life, does this mean they're not musicians? They're doing more than just simply playing exactly what's written, try listening to a computer recreation of an orchestral piece, it can play everything exactly as written, but it can't hold a candle to a real orchestra full of musicians. It's because the computer doesn't have the ability to interpret the music and play it in a musical way.
The well known orchestras have some absolutely amazing musicians, but they have simply chosen to study a type/genre of music that doesn't require improvisation. They may be terrible improvisers but I think it would be quite unfair to say that they're not musicians.
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jonsparrow
2207 posts
Feb 10, 2010
2:28 PM
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"the annoyance of my companions"
im tellin your friends you think there annoying.
@ryan: of course some one who plays in a professional orchestra is a musician. i was talkin more on the lines of like some one who has some guitars, an hes like "look an can play sweet dreams, or metalica, or this or that blah blah blah". i dont consider some one like that a musician. theres allot of people like that where im from. all they do is learn a bunch of metal songs note for note an people think they're the best guitarist ever. thats not an art thats just copying an memorizing tabs you found on the internet.
its when people start performing there own songs is when i consider them a musician. it dosnt have to be no number 1 hit, but as long as they understand what there doing an doing it right.
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phogi
242 posts
Feb 10, 2010
2:29 PM
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I know this is a horrible answer, but -
A musician is someone who makes music.
Enough of it that it is a significant part of their identity.
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Aussiesucker
547 posts
Feb 10, 2010
2:45 PM
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One who makes music a profession playing or performing music. One who is skilled at playing a musical instrument. This is the way our Macquarie Dictionary defines musician.
If your money making is being a doctor, lawyer, carpenter ,electrician, or whatever then that is your profession or trade. You may prefer playing music but if it cannot sustain your living you cannot call yourself a musician.
For most of us its probably only a hobby.
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Ryan
138 posts
Feb 10, 2010
2:46 PM
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Jon: I understand what you're saying, it seems that a lot of people that play guitar tend to get a big head really quickly. They learn to strum some chord progressions, and they impress a few girls, and they start callling themselves musicians and get a big ego. A lot of times they can't even tell you what key they're in. I tend to get most annoyed when they look down on other instruments that they don't think are as cool as the guitar. As if learning to play some simple rhythm guitar makes them more of a musician than someone who plays a clarinet(for example).
I guess I made the comment about orchestral musicians, because sometimes I'll hear people talking about how they think people that play in a school band, or even a professional orchestra, aren't real musicians(because they play from sheet music and don't improvise). When, for the most part, the people in the orchestra/band/symphony ussually know A LOT more about music and theory, and are far more skilled, than the person making the comment.
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2010 2:50 PM
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saregapadanisa
130 posts
Feb 10, 2010
2:48 PM
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What a question !
For what it's worth, I would just say that being a musician is : taking music seriously.
That encompasses playing an instrument, listening, composing... whatever your skills may be or whatever your aims may be.
Creating your own music : not a criter to me, and very much a western self-centerd view IMO. Ask any person playing music anywhere on this planet, he'll tell you he plays HIS music, improvising or not. As soon as you play it, it's yours.
I once met a great dutar player from Uzbekistan (I'm not making this up, but can't remember his name) who used to play any kind of music, classical, folk, popular, be it for discerning audiences or for entertaining marriage parties. That guy told me something I'll never forget :
First, I tune my instrument ;
Second, I tune to the audience ;
Third, I tune to myself ;
And only then I can start playing.
That's being a musician.
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jonsparrow
2209 posts
Feb 10, 2010
2:50 PM
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i agree ryan.
oh ya an nirvana. just cause some one can play every nirvana song dosnt mean there awesome at guitar. lol
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GermanHarpist
1105 posts
Feb 10, 2010
2:54 PM
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A musician is someone who can express/inspire feelings (of beauty/awe) through sound.
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germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2010 2:56 PM
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nacoran
1089 posts
Feb 10, 2010
3:16 PM
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"to the annoyance of my companions"
Jon, if you miss quote people and change the meaning of what they say you are going to meet a horrible fate...
You'll get hired to do the news by some big network.
;-) Or worse yet you'll end up a politician.
It's like pornography. I know it when I see (hear) it.
You need a bare minimum of rhythm and pitch and enough confidence to call yourself a musician. It changes depending who else is in the room. If I'm in the room with my bass player, I'm a musician. If I'm in room with Adam, I'm not.
It's like being old or young. In a room of kids, I'm old. Hanging out with my neighbors (mostly retirees) I'm young. But there is a minimum requirement. A room with a seven-year old and a bunch of two-year olds, the seven-year old is not old, just older. It's the same thing with musicians.
You also have to be able to lose yourself in the music. If you can lose yourself in the music, keep the beat, stay on pitch on whatever you are doing, then, in the right room, you are a musician.
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Delta Dirt
104 posts
Feb 10, 2010
3:16 PM
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For me its someone who has gone through three marriages,a million gigs,inhaled a ton of smoke,drank an ocean of bourbon,sung miles of song lists,observed a zillion sunrises,destroyed tons of equipment....all to make someone forget their troubles. If not for just a few hours and for just a few bucks.
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Ryan
139 posts
Feb 10, 2010
3:26 PM
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"Jon, if you miss quote people and change the meaning of what they say you are going to meet a horrible fate...
You'll get hired to do the news by some big network."
Most likely Fox News. Or as they should be called: Faux News.
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nacoran
1091 posts
Feb 10, 2010
3:34 PM
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Ryan- Are you trying to start a holy war? See how I expertly kept my comments vague? If you keep all your media and political comments vague then everyone can agree!
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Ryan
140 posts
Feb 10, 2010
3:49 PM
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Hey I didn't make any political comment, I just made a joke bashing a "news" station. The fact that everyone associates them with one particular political party(which I won't name), just shows how biased and one sided Fox is and proves my point : )
But I was just joking around, I know this isn't the place to argue politics or make fun of how bad a particular news organisation is. I apologise.
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2010 3:50 PM
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jonsparrow
2211 posts
Feb 10, 2010
4:25 PM
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lol i actually misread that.
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ZackPomerleau
718 posts
Feb 10, 2010
4:27 PM
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A musician is like a form of an artist. As long as you are making music, it makes you a musician I think.
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jonsparrow
2212 posts
Feb 10, 2010
4:31 PM
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according to one of adams video a musician is some one who can keep rhythm/time. if you cant do that then your not a musician.
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LeeEdwards
14 posts
Feb 10, 2010
5:05 PM
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"If your money making is being a doctor, lawyer, carpenter ,electrician, or whatever then that is your profession or trade. You may prefer playing music but if it cannot sustain your living you cannot call yourself a musician"
I disagree. By the same logic an amateur boxer would not actually be a boxer until he turned pro and Muddy Waters wasn't a musician until he went to Chicago. Listen to the recording of Muddy Waters made by Alan Lomax when Muddy was still a field labourer and then tell me that he wasn't a musician. Think of all the orchestras throughout the world who don't get paid to perform. Are there not musicians amongst them?
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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Buddha
1386 posts
Feb 10, 2010
5:14 PM
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a musician is an agent of the cosmos. Everything, everywhere is vibration. The universe IS sound and we are a conduit for these cosmic vibrations.
Of course if you just sit around and copy little walter licks then you're just a copy cat and not a musician at all.
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"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
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arzajac
98 posts
Feb 10, 2010
5:28 PM
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Wow! There's a lot to think about here.
"A musician is someone who makes music.
Enough of it that it is a significant part of their identity. "
Phogi - I would never have thought to put it that way. That's probably the most all-encompassing definition here.
Thanks.
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jonsparrow
2216 posts
Feb 10, 2010
5:30 PM
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""If your money making is being a doctor, lawyer, carpenter ,electrician, or whatever then that is your profession or trade. You may prefer playing music but if it cannot sustain your living you cannot call yourself a musician"
I disagree. By the same logic an amateur boxer would not actually be a boxer until he turned pro and Muddy Waters wasn't a musician until he went to Chicago. Listen to the recording of Muddy Waters made by Alan Lomax when Muddy was still a field labourer and then tell me that he wasn't a musician. Think of all the orchestras throughout the world who don't get paid to perform. Are there not musicians amongst them?"
ya that would be if the thread was about what is a professional musician.
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arzajac
99 posts
Feb 10, 2010
5:36 PM
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Well, how many kinds of musicians are there, then?
Professional, hobbyist, student, retired, etc....?
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gene
374 posts
Feb 10, 2010
5:36 PM
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@LeeEdwards"
"...My wife would tell you that I'm a nightmare to live with..."
THAT'S TRUE! THAT'S TRUE!! That's EXACTLY what she told me!!
;)
:D
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jonsparrow
2217 posts
Feb 10, 2010
5:40 PM
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"Well, how many kinds of musicians are there, then?
Professional, hobbyist, student, retired, etc....? "
aspiring, crappy, prodigy, staving, homeless...
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HarmonicaMick
83 posts
Feb 10, 2010
6:15 PM
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How long is a piece of string?
Of course, there are smart answers to that question, but that is not my point. There is no right answer to the original poster's question. There are simply different degrees/skill levels of musicianship.
However, snobbery and bitchiness amongst musicians could easily lead one to believe that there is a certain level at which one becomes a 'musician'.
Piffal and hogwash to them, I say!
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
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saregapadanisa
132 posts
Feb 10, 2010
6:21 PM
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From the previous posts, I would suggest a consensus :
What's a musician?
A person whose partner lives a nightmare.
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phogi
243 posts
Feb 10, 2010
6:21 PM
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If you are asking about types of musicians there are three important types:
1) Those you like
2) Those you don't.
3) Those you don't like yet.
If you ask about what makes a 'good' musician, then you are asking a much bigger question.
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Jim Rumbaugh
151 posts
Feb 10, 2010
6:23 PM
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I am reminded when a talented "musician" I knew said she was working toward a degree to teach the mentaly impaired to sing. I asked,"why". She replied, "everyone can sing."
From that insight, I answer the original question this way:
If someone else says says you are a musician, then you are. You cannot call yourself a musician. It is when the music you make is enjoyable or "comunicates" to someone else that you are a musician. (and that hapens on many different levels)
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LeeEdwards
15 posts
Feb 10, 2010
6:38 PM
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@jonsparrow - You're right though. I do find my friends annoying if they yap over a perfectly amazing tune. Sometimes mouths need to be closed and ears opened. Next time it happens they can watch out :)
@Jim - "If someone else says says you are a musician, then you are". Somebody called me a miserable b*****d today. That doesn't mean it's true. No....Wait....Yes it is!
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2010 6:45 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
152 posts
Feb 10, 2010
7:03 PM
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@LeeEdwards.. you made me smile..... you b*****d
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jonsparrow
2221 posts
Feb 10, 2010
7:32 PM
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"I am reminded when a talented "musician" I knew said she was working toward a degree to teach the mentaly impaired to sing. I asked,"why". She replied, "everyone can sing.""
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Chinaski
50 posts
Feb 11, 2010
1:56 AM
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One who is able to listen with just as much attention and care as they apply to playing.
If you cannot or are unwilling to perform with others as a collective whole, then you are not truly a musician as far as I'm concerned.
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Andrew
894 posts
Feb 11, 2010
3:19 AM
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"Is it being able to play in public?"
This is a conundrum that has been on my mind since I was a classical musician. If you have musical talent, you are expected naturally to (want to) perform in front of people, but, as far as I can see, there is no essential link between possessing musicality and wanting to perform in front of people.
There are people who want to perform who have no perceptible talent at anything. Conversely, having talent shouldn't turn you into an extrovert.
Perhaps it's all to do with conditioning - applaud a child and they will learn to thrive on the attention.
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Kinda hot in these rhinos!
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wallyns10
143 posts
Feb 11, 2010
4:48 AM
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A musician is someone who can turn passion and emotion into sound.
A musician is someone who doesn't need words to express ideas or converse with others.
A true musician (in my eyes) is someone who devotes their life to music because its the only thing that they could do forever without jumping off a bridge. Short of that music becomes a hobby.
Maybe I'm being a little too poetic but thats how I feel.
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arzajac
100 posts
Feb 11, 2010
4:50 AM
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"How long is a piece of string?
Of course, there are smart answers to that question, but that is not my point. There is no right answer to the original poster's question. There are simply different degrees/skill levels of musicianship."
But a piece of string is not defined by the fact that it has length. Lots of things have length that can be easily measured.
Is there something more to being a musician than just being able to play music?
One of my colleagues studies piano for many years - into high school. She completed her Royal Conservatory Exams and can sight read. However, she has no interest in music. She doesn't own a piano and hasn't played in many years.
Is she a musician? If she is no longer a musician, at what point did she stop being one? Was she ever a musician?
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The7thDave
36 posts
Feb 11, 2010
8:37 AM
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A few more thoughts, after sleeping on it.
If performing and/or composing music is your current career, then I think it's pretty clear that you're a musician by pretty much any definition. If not, it gets more vague, and I think it starts to depend on whether others recognize you as such. But the meaning and value of that recognition depends on who is offering it, and the nature of their criteria for judgment (also whether they consider it to be an honorific or a pejorative). For example, recognition coming from the following sources will have different levels of value:
- your mother
- your girlfriend's father
- your band-mates
- your music teacher
- a professional musician who plays a different instrument
- a professional harmonica player
- a stranger in your audience
- a stranger who recognizes you on the street
- Adam, or Buddha
- a neurologist
- you, when you're being entirely honest with yourself
This last one may be fundamental--can you be a musician if you don't actually think of yourself that way?
Personally, I don't think of myself as a musician--yet. I typically think of myself a a 'student of music,' or an 'aspiring musician,' or a 'musical novice.'
arzajac: does your colleague consider herself to be a musician?
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2010 8:58 AM
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jonsparrow
2228 posts
Feb 11, 2010
9:59 AM
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i like wallys explanation.
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Tuckster
389 posts
Feb 11, 2010
10:22 AM
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@wallys What about the ones that have day jobs and play on the weekend? Are they hobbyists? Can't they also be musicians ? Maybe amateur vs. pro musician. I know quite a few who don't make a living playing music,but I'd certainly call them musicians. I guess I think there are different degrees of musicians.
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arzajac
101 posts
Feb 11, 2010
11:34 AM
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"arzajac: does your colleague consider herself to be a musician? "
No. But if she did, in some senses she could be right. I guess it's up to the individual. In her place, I wouldn't. Not unless it was a significant part of her life. But I just can't put my finger on what that really means.
As you and others have mentioned, I suppose that what others think plays a very strong part in defining whether you are a musician or not.
Back to Elwood Blues, his character grew up as an orphan and pretty much played the blues and got thrown in jail for stealing stuff. As a sympathetic audience, we don't label him a criminal but there is no doubt that he is a musician. That label sticks.
On the other hand, if there was a person who plays the harmonica, has a PhD, has been in Space aboard the Space Shuttle, is a single parent who is raising three kids and has found a cure for cancer, would we be so quick to label her a musician? Does the importance of all those other labels make the musician label stick less? Do we just assume that music could not possibly take up enough importance in her life to call her a musician?
Actually, former US secretary of State Condoleezza Rice: Musician or not?
Is it others' perception of how important music is to you that makes them call you a musician or not?
On another note, I'm feeling less dumb for having asked the question in the first place. Thanks everyone!
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2010 11:36 AM
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Kyzer Sosa
121 posts
Feb 11, 2010
9:49 PM
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i like walterharp's answer best...
did we all learn to write? of course...but before we knew words, we drew pictures that expressed our infant thoughts. so shouldnt we all be artists? to whatever degree, we all are!
Music is human, we created it, it is understood by all, universally. before we ever knew what the instrument looked like, we heard it first, saw it on the Blues Brothers as a boy and it touched us...So, shouldnt we all, to whatever degree, be musicians? we all are!
and theres my opinionated, sappy theory.
I appreciated walters post, cuz he didnt add all that Jabberwocky...
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Kyzer's Travels
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The Gloth
223 posts
Feb 12, 2010
1:50 AM
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I like the definition by Saregapadanisa : "taking (playing) music seriously".
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MrVerylongusername
896 posts
Feb 12, 2010
2:06 AM
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I think it's pretty simple:
The word musician simply means someone who makes music. It's the adjective that goes in front that's important: good, bad, crap, talented, amazing, professional, amateur, dreadful, mediocre, inspiring, hip hop...
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blogward
84 posts
Feb 12, 2010
5:27 AM
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No-one who is not making music is a musician. A person only becomes a musician when they make music. While Buddha is customizing a harp for me, he is a harp customizer.
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 5:57 AM
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jonsparrow
2237 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:12 AM
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thats stupid. so when mozart was eating dinner he wasnt a musician? or when hes sleeping? or now that hes dead? hes not a dead musician? hes just a corpse?
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HarpNinja
162 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:41 AM
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Everyone is making music all day long. Everyone is a musician. We all sound different. Some can be agreed upon to be "better" than others, but we are all musicians.
Another spin...and really my initial thought...
Who cares? It is a label that will involve definitions which will put on in a box and limit them.
I am not a musician, customizer, father, husband, brother, teacher, or even Mike Fugazzi. I am the universe. Labels are stupid but we are all obsessed with them.
Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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jonsparrow
2239 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:56 AM
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can i be mike fugazzi if your not?
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Nastyolddog
187 posts
Feb 14, 2010
3:47 AM
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Hi Bro what is a muso you see that Little kid mum just bought him a toy Harmonica an Old Man over the fence hears him honkin cords on his new toy Says Son come over hear I will teach you a little tune to play mum and give her a big suprise,,then teachs him some more fun songs,,Your mate plays Guitar you say you would like to play a instrument he grabs a Harmonica out of his case shows you a 12 bar Blues run eventuly playing along with you,,you been hanging around a Jam night a guy encourages you to get have a go,,you get up do 2 songs you know by heart but fluff a few notes nearly run of stage he pats you on the back good stuff mate,,your real hard on ya self tell him you stuffed up he says mate you got up had a go thats what its all about,,he knows you will go home get it right and be back,,maybe evan offer to come over have a jam with your songs so he can back you up at the next Jam any person that encourages others to play an instrument we all have different levals of playing from Pro's to Joe Blows,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it's not what you do with the Instrument it's what you do for your instrument..
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2010 4:03 AM
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