Elwood
341 posts
Feb 12, 2010
8:58 AM
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Following our discussion on harmonicanotes.com, I had a bit of a rant about the perils of the enthusiastic amateur. As someone who encountered a fair few bum-steers and dead-ends when i started out playing (not all that long ago) I have strong feelings on this.
How can beginners trust the information they encounter? Is there a foolproof screening process for crap information? I got a few crap books, took some advice from people who I later learned were clueless, and all in all, I'm probably a better person for it.
I've had the good fortune to have met some great players and teachers who have pointed me in the right direction. I have met other players who picked up bad habits early on and ten years down the line can't shake them. What think you?
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EddyLizard2
74 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:08 AM
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Me thinks: Happened to a lot of us.
And i am sooo very glad for the internet and great players like....well, you know them!
edited: Btw. I like Mom's policy...
“Elwood’s Mom” Policy: if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 9:11 AM
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jonsparrow
2238 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:15 AM
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its all part of the learning process.
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HarpNinja
160 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:19 AM
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Lol. I love it!
Sadly, technology has made it so everyone is a pro or a star. YouTube has a wealth of awful information out there! Just with harmonica there is just flat out wrong and bad advice out there that is really hurting players. Some of these people are receiving thousands of hits and being viewed as credible just because they have a video out there. This is especially true of gear reviews. There are some developing players that really have put great things up there, and then there are developing players putting things up there that end up costing people a lot of money! Same with pros! Lol.
It saddens me to see so many people wanting to share what they share. There is a lot of soul sharing that seems to be a bit like ego-driven thinking out loud. Personally, I prefer to watch most people play more than watch lessons. Personally, if I have no idea who you are, I am going to internally question everything you say and do and be very critical of what I hear. Ultimately, letting my experience inform me too. This isn't because I don't like or trust you, but because it is the right thing to do. I am only 29 but sort of an old soul I guess. I don't like my peers, and even more so those a generation behind me, not taking the time to actually think for themselves (this seems to be the in thing culturally). Experience is the best teacher, not the Internet or another person you have next to no relationship with. It is important to collect as much information and mis-information as possible and learn to assimilate it and sort it all out. Not doing so is taking a short cut that only hurts you in the end on a thousand levels.
Then there are people on YouTube like Adam, Jason, or Chris that I will pretty much blindly follow!
There seem to be a lot of young players on this board (I am talking experience and not just age), and while their insight is just as important as anyone else's, and it is important, we really do need to consider the source. Especially when it involves buying stuff. Everyone needs to contribute as they are...whether experienced or not, but then the reader needs to really digest what is going on.
Think about how many times one of us has said, "Which one should I get?" Does anyone then go back and check for credibility of the opinions? There is a delay inquiry being discussed right now. I hope the author researches everyone who posted an opinion and determines whether they get what they are talking about or not. Just because something is the "in" thing that doesn't mean it is the best thing. The toy might seem awesome to you, but what are you comparing it too?
Should I listen to Jason Ricci about delays when he has posted clips and plays hundreds of shows a year and can articulate exactly what he means to say about a pedal, or the guy who has played 3 years, has only owned one delay he learned to set up himself and has never used it on stage?
We need to think about everything and listen to everyone.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 9:21 AM
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Greg Heumann
289 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:21 AM
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"Is there a foolproof screening process for crap information?"
When you find it, I want in!!! Of course, there is no such thing. But here are a few guidelines.
You must consider your sources. As you follow the lists and forums over time, you'll find some people post consistently with sensible, informed and unemotional answers, that others don't tend to dispute. Trust those people.
Then you'll find people who insist that what they own is the best, what they JUST bought is even better, and can't hear or won't consider other views or counter-arguments. These people are just reinforcing their own egos. Don't listen to them.
It helps to know if they can actually put their money where their mouth is. Can they play? Check them out on Youtube or their web site. If someone can't play worth a damn, yet has supreme opinions about the best mic or amp, you might question his or her credibility.
If you ever ask "what's the best XYZ" and the answer isn't "for what?" then don't trust the answer.
/Greg
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 9:23 AM
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Greg Heumann
290 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:23 AM
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Hah! Mike and I posted at the same time and said the same thing. See, you can trust US!
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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tookatooka
1185 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:25 AM
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How can beginners trust the information they encounter?
In the very early stages you can't but due to the internet it is so easy now to make comparisons. Once you get a little experience behind you it soon becomes obvious who the shysters are. But, having said that, if you are in the middle of nowhere and there's only one book on harmonica playing, that's tough.
Is there a foolproof screening process for crap information? Only your common sense.
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Elwood
342 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:35 AM
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"If you ever ask "what's the best XYZ" and the answer isn't "for what?" then don't trust the answer." ... I think that's the closest we can get to a definitive answer.
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waltertore
168 posts
Feb 12, 2010
10:11 AM
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I have always followed my dreams. That has always led to great teachers appearing. I am not saying it has been a hassle free journey. Quite the contrary. We have been stranded in forgein lands, and across this country without a dime, but it all led to the next step. If you really want to become one with your instrument, you have to blindly follow that dream. If you want to make it hobby, then it will be a much more smooth ride on some levels. You will pick and choose your paths vs. blindly walking, but the great teacher may never appear. The greats I learned from never gave a lesson. You just hung around them and took it all in. Then after a time they would slowly bring you into their playing gigs. Each time I met a good teacher, they shinned like a star on a dark night and each time I met a flake, they were as bright as a star on a starless night. Unfortunately seeing clearly usually comes with going down the wrong road a bunch of times to figure out which road is wrong and which right. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
my music
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 10:25 AM
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asilve3
74 posts
Feb 12, 2010
10:22 AM
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Hey Elwood, that is a really interesting and thought provoking article. Very good read! Thanks a lot for sharing.
If I was a beginner browsing on youtube I think I would be screwed. Search "bending a note on the harmonica" and you will not find one credible video except for Buddha who is fourth from the bottom.
As frustrating as it can be to see all of the bad information out there inevitably I think it separates the weak from the strong. Those who want the best information will seek it out.
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http://www.youtube.com/user/asilve3
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LIP RIPPER
178 posts
Feb 12, 2010
10:23 AM
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The inference is loud and clear, I love it.
Say Greg, I still have that SM57 that you were going to Hotrod for me. I was getting ready to send it to you when my wife surprised me on my birthday with a new mic. I want to thank you again for your efforts.
LR
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Diggsblues
153 posts
Feb 12, 2010
11:01 AM
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Elwood there is the old saying the medium is the message.
The net seems to give people more clout than they really
have. So many times a guy comes off like the reincarntion
of Paul Butterfield and I find an example of his playing online and he needs serious lessons himself.LOL
I always try to find examples of a person's playing before
I take their advice seriously.
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blogward
86 posts
Feb 12, 2010
11:05 AM
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I just came across Patrick Costello's 5-string banjo vids: Brilliant banjo instruction, but possibly the worst harp information (and playing) I've ever seen! Sorry, Patrick!
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nacoran
1109 posts
Feb 12, 2010
11:07 AM
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"As an enthusiastic apprentice myself, I’m sympathetic. But when I watch Mr 30 Days’ videos, it’s never quite clear whether he’s sharing his own journey as a beginner player, or trying to push his lessons onto beginners who are still just a bit too wet behind the ears to know any better."
I know the videos you are talking about, and it's not so much the playing that bothers me. He says he's a beginner, so his playing fits, but then he goes to expound on his theory of mediocre is fine. It's not his playing, or his disclaimer that bother me, it's that his fundamental philosophy is anathematic to what I believe, although it's ironic, because as far as production values go, he seems to be a bit of a perfectionist. It's fine to be mediocre, but to aspire to be mediocre and to espouse that as a creed?
As for equipment reviews in particular, I think there is a deeper problem. There is a lot of review payola going on. Unfortunately, we play an instrument that doesn't allow you to play before you buy, so we are even more at the mercy of reviewers. What's worse, we play an instrument where, until you get to the very expensive instruments, the initial quality is inconsistent. That makes learning by trial and error even more expensive.
And what is the magic formula to detect flim-flam? Repeated exposure. Just like learning harmonica, we learn who to trust by trial and error.
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ZackPomerleau
733 posts
Feb 12, 2010
11:45 AM
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Don't believe the first thing you read or hear. For the first year of my playing I did lots of bad technique things. Guess what, I had to relearn. If I would have stayed that way I wouldn't have any good tone, wouldn't be overblowing or bending decently, and I would just sound bad. I'm not the best, but re-learning sucks a whole lot. Find various sources before committing to something.
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congaron
524 posts
Feb 12, 2010
12:04 PM
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Regarding gear...ALL gear related forums also have their share of gear snobs giving equally one-sided advice. Experience is certainly the best teacher, but the experience of some is simply out of the question for others due to budget constraints. I look for posters who test extensively and also seem to have an eye for value/dollar spent.
Regarding instruction...the playing of the instructor certainly needs to be up to snuff, but that doesn't automatically make a good instructor either. The Gussow videos and Dave barret, Ronnie shellist, and JP Allen for beginners..these four past the litmus test of good instruction that it would be difficult to fault for any beginning to intermediate player looking for internet freebies. There are several other good players who may or may not teach in a style that you as an individual can learn from. This is equally true of private lessons...not just on the harmonica.
Bottom line..live and learn.
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KingoBad
175 posts
Feb 12, 2010
2:52 PM
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I think all you need to look at is the internet. If you don't develop systems of getting the actual facts, you are screwed! It is a talent you MUST learn to develop in these high information times. If you are satisfied with something less than the truth and verifiable facts... well you will at least be in good company with millions of other lazy people.
As for harmonica resources, I think smart folks will always find good information and ways to verify the information. Morons will not. There will always be some chance that they get bad information, but they will also know WHY they screwed up and learn something for it (how to find better information). Gear falls under the same heading. People with a cool head and pocketbook will find what they need when they need it. Others will spend thousands on gear they may or may not use. I also think that gear-heads will probably not regret a single purchase either, as much of the thrill is in the hunt and the newest toy.
As has been said before - live and learn. At least we are not living in times when people are purposefully trying to screw us up. Even then, the same warning would apply.
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gene
376 posts
Feb 12, 2010
3:59 PM
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"...If you ever ask "what's the best XYZ" and the answer isn't "for what?" then don't trust the answer...."
I'm not so sure about that.
"What's the best mic?"
"For what? Clean sound? Dirty sound? For comfort? How much ya wanna pay?"
"What's the best amp?"
"For what? Small venues? Large venues? Practice? Want amp effects? What kind of tone do you like? How much ya wanna spend?"
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Elwood
344 posts
Feb 12, 2010
4:45 PM
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Gene - I think you're making the same point Greg was. Aren't you?
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gene
377 posts
Feb 12, 2010
6:14 PM
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Oh! Yes I am. I read that wrong. I was reading "...if the answer IS 'for what'..."
My mistake.
:)
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Kyzer Sosa
125 posts
Feb 13, 2010
1:14 PM
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ears dont lie to anyone...i know bubkuss when I hear it. i dont need help to discern between whats good and what isnt. I suppose i should read your rant....
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Kyzer's Travels
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Elwood
348 posts
Feb 14, 2010
6:53 AM
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On the other hand, I wouldn't qualify you as a beginner in any case, Kyzer. It depends on the definition, I s'pose.
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Bluzdude46
466 posts
Feb 14, 2010
7:17 AM
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Actually I think more on the positive side. There is so much really good info out there that I never had that players today are learning at a break neck speed and getting very very good. I am seeing more very good young players and More good then bad, common sense should be able to filter out most of the bad.
And the glass is half full and I believe in democracy and feel that peace on earth is possible. Lets not go into the old Santa and Tooth Fairy conspiracies, please.
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The Original Downtown Philadelphia Fatman... Accept No substitutes!
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Elwood
354 posts
Feb 14, 2010
4:40 PM
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Ultimately - once my hissy fit has died down - I think Kingobad and Bluzdude46 sum up my feelings. (1) The open platform is a very good thing, overall (2) Trust in people to figure things out for themselves.
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Kyzer Sosa
126 posts
Feb 14, 2010
9:10 PM
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yes elwood, thats great advice to follow... and just remember that for each success theres been a hundred fails along the way to it.
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Kyzer's Travels
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Andrew
901 posts
Feb 15, 2010
4:22 AM
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What's the controversy?
The internet is basically a piece of shit. Why should harp lessons be different from some of the text you read on it?
"beginners can’t always tell the difference between good harp and bad harp"
Has the beginner been [ital] inspired [/ital] to learn the harp? If so, then the beginner should stick to what inspired him/her.
Your best friend is your ears. Anyone who is better than you can be your teacher - the trick is to know when you've outgrown them, and then find someone better, even if it's only after two weeks.
Some good teachers are only a week ahead of their students - those who know TA's at universities will agree with me there!
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Kinda hot in these rhinos!
Last Edited by on Feb 15, 2010 4:25 AM
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