I've always had a noodle at tbing but inspired by this weeks topics of juke and the vid of Wilson, Bharat and co, I have spent the last three days exclusively tbing. It is like completely relearning bends again. They are very hit and miss (more miss at the mo) and sound thin. And I have to play SLOWLY, I can get better tone on holes 4 up but I feel 1 to 3 sound much the same puckered. I'm in a dilemma. I'd love to be able to tb and get all the things down that you can only get by tbing. But it's gonna take time. I know it's only been three days at about three hours a day but I'm wondering about others who have made the transition from puckerer to tber. Would you do it all over again? And how easy did you find the transition?
I'm a beginner but the way I'm being taught is to TB on holes 4 & + and lip purse 1 - 3. Of course, like I said, I'm a beginner and just happy that I can get any sound out of it!
I tried it from time to time and if I felt I was at a dead end I quit and gave it a try another time. I finally learned how to do it when I learned the Solo to George Smith's Telephone Blues. The first two notes are 1--4 draw octave and followed by a 5 draw. Doing the 5 draw lip pursed requires a lot of movement coming from the octave but when you just move your mouth one hole to the right and leave the tongue in the same position on the comb and just roll it over as you move your mouth, you are in the perfect single note tongue block position. Voila, that was it. I still have problems with tb bends but who cares. It will come with time. IMHO playing single note bends pursed is fine as well anyway.
---------- If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
Yes, I would do it all again. It was awkward and the hardest thing was losing some of what I could do better puckered for a while. Like bends and distorted notes.
For about 12 of my 17 years playing,I was a LP. Then a fellow player critiqued me and gave me this terse advice:"Learn to TB! So I dug in and it wasn't easy at first. Slow and clumsy. I'll never be a total TBer,but it is necessary if only for those split octaves. Like you,I still LP holes1-2-3. I used to agonize over not being a total TB,but then found out that both Adam and Jason aren't either. If you want to get that "Chicago sound" you need to TB,for sure.It adds sounds you can't get any other way. I just quit worrying about whether I should be a total TB and just play and use it where it fits.
The thing I don't buy about TB is that in the old days everybody did it EXCLUSIVELY. I have had some discussions about it and I think it's BS. IMHO it's all about using both techniques to expand your musical vocabulary.
---------- If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
I've recently got into TB'ing. I resisted as long as I could because I found it difficult.
I wish I'd started doing it much earlier on now because the possibilities it opens up are enormous.
The harp has it's limitations and anything to broaden out the range of this instrument should be embraced.
TB'ing for me is more than just blocking off holes I don't want to play, I use it for octaves, tongue slapping, trills etc etc.
It is necessary in my opinion now and I couldn't imagine playing harp without it.
I embed my recent entry for HPC3 which is full from beginning to end with tongue blocking techniques. The music has minimum appeal to most on here (I only got three votes) but I was chuffed with it owing to the tongue blocking techniques alone. See what you think and how the techniques could help with the blues.
Like Tuckster, I found after using LP for many years, the switch to TB difficult but worth the effort. I went to Jerry Portnoy for a lesson many years ago, and he set me straight on TB. So many effects, like slaps, octaves, corner switches,shimmers and pulls have become a big part of my playing, especially on George Smith styled chromatic tunes. I use both now, mostly LP on extreme ends of the harp, TB everywhere else. Use whatever works for you.
I have been a lip purser from day one, but I do enjoy hearing great tongue blockers like Kim Wilson and Sugar Blue. I do octave splits which seem to fit well with a lip purser. I agree with posters that think players should learn both and I hope to learn tongue blocking to the side one of these days. You can get similar background harmony effects by lip pursing. My friend plays Wildwood Flower in 1st position and does these really cool rythmic chords by tongue blocking to the left of the melody....I do the same rhythm and chords (since it is 1st position) by playing melody in the center and opening both sides of my mouth a bit wider, catching the notes right above and below. We play the same melody and the same chord, but my chord is simply one blow note higher than his. My question is this....can tongue blockers overblow/overdraw from this mouth position? I really don't know. Is it mostly tongue blockers that don't jump on the OB bandwagon? Just learning the differences...
I'm a TB'er - however I SWITCH back and forth. You don't have to stay in one position! I WISH I could bend as fluidly and powerfully in TB position as I can in pursed position, but I can't. I can switch very fast, however. TB can definitely help with tone, and certainly allows a lot of textural and rhythmical stuff that can't be done otherwise. ---------- /Greg
...Hi Bro's check it out don't cop out give it a go what have you got to lose Just learn scales for the first few weeks boring i know but worth it,,i TB every note 1 to 10 get them old tunes and spice them up the only argument you will get is from a lip Purser no i'm not Born a gain TB Lip Pursing has it's place but i have more or less dropped it all togehter TB Bending your Jaw must not move,,it's all in the tongue movement much like Lip Purseing but with the jaw motionless tongue on comb making the same movments as you do LP keep at it for 4 weeks Hay Presto it just comes..I have had many compliments on my improvement on tone but in stead of saying i TB at gigs to save argument i just say Yeh i been working on my Tone,,But the secret got out last week when some one asked my Harp Teacher i still LP
Two of my freinds tounge-block overblows and overdraws. One of them in Dennis Gruenling. He tounge blocks everything-he got me to do the same. I was a lip-purse/lip block player for years.
HarpDude 61 asked: "My question is this....can tongue blockers overblow/overdraw from this mouth position?" Yes, they can (not me, but I know Dennis Gruenling can and does).
I don't see TB'ing as a "religious" topic. When I started taking lessons from Dennis, I could already tongue block a little. I learned to play Cluck Old Hen that way (except for the bends). And I TB'ed some bass lines I learned (like the box pattern). Dennis had me work on playing bass lines with syncopation TBed. That was a great way to work on it, including getting better at bending TBed. Try practicing with bass lines.
I just liked tongue blocking and so I started using it more and more. Now I think of my tongue as my favorite muscle.
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2010 9:13 AM
I use tbing for splits, octaves and flutters. It's just that I got my lp bends to a standard that I was happy with and could hit the bends on the 3draw with good tone and reasonably accurately. The tb bends are just gonna take alot of time and effort. I think I'll give it a go for four weeks and see where I'm at. Maybe take a lesson with West Weston as he is an exclusive tongue blocker and very very good with it and I know Oisin from this forum had a lesson with him. This harp playing seems to get harder and harder
It's all personal preference of course, but I find TB'ing a MUCH more relaxed position for playing and I don't lip pure at all now. For lip pursing you have to use all the accessory muscles of the lips and mouth to form a compact hole, with TB'ing, you just put the tongue up to the 3 left (or right) holes and you are only using the tongue in a VERY relaxed position. Also, of course, you can corner switch (do octave and other interval leaps) quite easily. As for TB overblows, I find them easier INITIALLY lip pursing, but overall there is a smaller movement to O'blow when TB. It's all about practicing it until it becomes easy and going slow and staying relaxed the whole time. NEVER "bear down" to play something. Make tiny changes in mouth position, see if you can bend/overblow/play a single note. Eventually it comes. Good luck.
I have been practicing more often this past month. I have a customized C harp (from preston) and I have discovered the harp all over again. It is extremely fun and I find that I TB much MORE now. I always found that stock harps required more air and found LP a lot easier for that. Now that I've gotten use to the TB on Preston's harp, I do it on all my other harps.
So my 2 cents is: -- Why not mix both? with LP you can articulate in a way you can't (I can't) with TB.
-- If you have been LP since you've started it might be worthwhile to get a custom harp (or a b-radical) as it makes everything easier -- more relevantly, makes TB A LOT easier (this is my experience, I don't know if others agree)
Luke, It coming up to 3 years for me this year and as far as I am concerned I should have leaned TB from the start. My advice is to buy the Jerry Portnoy master class cd's. These will tell you every thing you would need to know to get you on the right track.I think they are fantastic, informative and very easy to pick up the techniques.
I was a LP when I started and after about a year I wondered why my tone was so weak and thin. I could hear something very different to the way I was playing in the cd's and YT vids I was listening to.
I was drawn to the Chicago sound from the start and kept on searching for that sound.
I had a lesson from Pete Welland (Pete G and the Magnatones)and he did a cd of the lesson for me to take home. It was great to be able to hear and see in person just what was going on behind those hands and to ask the questions there and then.
I dont think there is a hard as fast rule to TB and LP I say its better to have the option of both and after a while say 2 months things will start to make sense and you toungue will start to memorise its postion relative to what you are thinking and playing in your head.
The way I learned was to do the boogie woogie pattern in 2nd position LP and and then try and fake the TB slap effect the Jason R does on one of his tutoral vids. Then I would do the same TB noting the bigger fatter sound. It takes a while.
I still dont know what will happen to my style in the future I guess it will develope and mature into my sound but I would not let this technique pass you by thats for sure. If you want to chat about it etc give me and email and I will send you my phone No.
I've been inspired by MichaelAndrewLo's adventures in tongue-blocking. His sound has improved incredibly since then (although I'm sure that his talent and dedication to practice has something to do with it too). Anyway, I'm launching into it full bore now as well, and things are coming along, slowly but surely.
